Purgatory

[colinlindsay]

If there's no purgatory how and when do we get cleansed of our sins?

Are there any of us who have reached the perfection of God before we die?

Indeed many of us will have besetting sins that have never been conquered.

 

[thelasttrumpet]

If there's no purgatory how and when do we get cleansed of our sins?

Are there any of us who have reached the perfection of God before we die?

Indeed many of us will have besetting sins that have never been conquered.

I'm not a Calvinist, and thus cannot engage in a debate with you on this topic (so this will be my only comment), but in 1 Corinthians 15:56, Paul tells us that "the sting of death is sin," and that when death is "swallowed up in victory" at the time of the resurrection (v. 54), death loses its sting (v. 55). Thus, Paul's argument seems to be that our being "made alive in Christ" (v. 22) is the means by which God makes us sinless. Consequently, there doesn't seem to be any need to spend any amount of time in "purgatory" - especially when our being made perfect can take place "in the twinkling of an eye" (v. 52).

Blessings,
Aaron

 

[colinlindsay]

Thank you for gracious reply, non-Calvinist Aaron.

Hope you are right!

 

[Elderone]

If there's no purgatory how and when do we get cleansed of our sins?

Christ's atonement on the cross covered the sins of the elect. His righteousness was credited to our account.

Are there any of us who (will) have reached the perfection of God before we die?

No one will reach perfection until they die and are Glorified.

Indeed many of us will have besetting sins that have never been conquered.

That is correct, we will continue to sin every day of our lives in word, thought and deed, but, as PS 103:12 says, "As far as the east is from the west, [so] far hath he removed our transgressions from us."

The sins of the elect have been forgiven.

 

[colinlindsay]

Sorry Elderone,

As a good Calvinist, you have to tell me whther you are talking about justification here or sanctification. We can't confuse the categories. This is not about removing the penalty (ie separation from God), but the purging of our carnal lusts and prides to equip us for His presence and service.

We are justified now and when we enter the presence. But how are our failings in personal holiness resolved? Will these not be burned up? Will not the beatific vision not dissolve them and will this be uncomfortable?

We know there will be a judgement and a reckoning for us believers based on our deeds, our works of righteousness. If as J John says our lives will be unrolled before God and the watching host, won't this be a time of at least embarrassment if not shame?

 

[Elderone]

Sorry Elderone,

As a good Calvinist, you have to tell me whther you are talking about justification here or sanctification. We can't confuse the categories. This is not about removing the penalty (ie separation from God), but the purging of our carnal lusts and prides to equip us for His presence and service.

We are justified now and when we enter the presence. But how are our failings in personal holiness resolved? Will these not be burned up? Will not the beatific vision not dissolve them and will this be uncomfortable?

Justification, the act of justifying, (Theology: To free (a human being) of the guilt and penalty attached to grievous sin. Used only of God. ) is an instantaneous one time act by God.

The act of sanctification is the process that begins immediately after justification, and continues throughout a persons life. This is the period whereby we are being remade into the likeness of God. Here is a definition which explains it more fully.

Sanctification
Involves more than a mere moral reformation of character, brought about by the power of the truth: it is the work of the Holy Spirit bringing the whole nature more and more under the influences of the new gracious principles implanted in the soul in regeneration. In other words, sanctification is the carrying on to perfection the work begun in regeneration, and it extends to the whole man (Rom_6:13; 2Co_4:6; Col_3:10; 1Jo_4:7; 1Co_6:19). It is the special office of the Holy Spirit in the plan of redemption to carry on this work (1Co_6:11; 2Th_2:13).
Faith is instrumental in securing sanctification, inasmuch as it
(1.) secures union to Christ (Gal_2:20), and
(2.) brings the believer into living contact with the truth, whereby he is led to yield obedience “to the commands, trembling at the threatenings, and embracing the promises of God for this life and that which is to come.”
Perfect sanctification is not attainable in this life (1Ki_8:46; Pro_20:9; Ecc_7:20; Jam_3:2; 1Jo_1:8). See Paul's account of himself in Rom_7:14-25; Phi_3:12-14; and 1Ti_1:15; also the confessions of David (Psa_19:12, Psa_19:13; 51), of Moses (Psa_90:8), of Job (Job_42:5, Job_42:6), and of Daniel (Dan. 9:3-20). “The more holy a man is, the more humble, self-renouncing, self-abhorring, and the more sensitive to every sin he becomes, and the more closely he clings to Christ. The moral imperfections which cling to him he feels to be sins, which he laments and strives to overcome. Believers find that their life is a constant warfare, and they need to take the kingdom of heaven by storm, and watch while they pray. They are always subject to the constant chastisement of their Father's loving hand, which can only be designed to correct their imperfections and to confirm their graces. And it has been notoriously the fact that the best Christians have been those who have been the least prone to claim the attainment of perfection for themselves.”, Hodge's Outlines.

(my emphasis)

Perfect sanctification, or glorification, is not achieved until the redeemed one dies.

We know there will be a judgement and a reckoning for us believers based on our deeds, our works of righteousness. If as J John says our lives will be unrolled before God and the watching host, won't this be a time of at least embarrassment if not shame?

Believers will be judged on what they did for the glory of God, not for any of their sins as they had been forgiven.

I have not studied this subject enough to say whether anyone would be embarrassed or shamed on this day.

 

[colinlindsay]

< < our being made perfect can take place "in the twinkling of an eye" > >

This is the verse I like, but does it actually refer to our final sanctification? It says that our bodies will be transformed. What of our minds? Are all our sins only of bodily appetites? Any sanctified speculations available?

I don't have a problem with what you have said, Elderone, but it doesn't explain why (apart from not having direct scriptural texts), the Catholics are wrong to believe in Purgatory.

The Orthodox take a more agnostic viewpoint. They don't believe in Purgatory but purgation of sins is quite likely, so the dead are prayed for. What else is there to pray for?

Let's not bring justification into this. I'm not talking about the judging of our sins, guilty or not. This is part of my frustration with much evangelical preaching - the preacher confuses the categories continually - sometimes this leads into Arminianism (David Pawson's we can all easily lose our salvation by not pursuing holiness) or rigid Calvinism that offers so little teaching about how to grow in holiness, within the healing of the church.

I know the NT tells us how in this life God develops holiness in us.
Romans 5:3
justification > faith > grace > rejoicing > suffering > perseverance > character > hope

Galations 5:22
living in the Spirit > peace, patience, joy, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.

Unless you are a believer in perfectionism, I would hazard a guess that most of us only travel a short way along the road to that holiness of mind and behaviour that God requires of His people to serve in His presence.

Do our sins and desires just get burned up in the beatific vision?

I hope it's quick.

 

[Elderone]

< < our being made perfect can take place "in the twinkling of an eye" > >

This is the verse I like, but does it actually refer to our final sanctification? It says that our bodies will be transformed. What of our minds? Are all our sins only of bodily appetites? Any sanctified speculations available?

H/W is the passage you quoted and two others that I believe answer your question.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

We are completely cleansed of any remaining impurity, we are sinless, pure, remade in the image of God in the twinkling of an eye.

I don't have a problem with what you have said, Elderone, but it doesn't explain why (apart from not having direct scriptural texts), the Catholics are wrong to believe in Purgatory.

H/W is a portion of the paper by Tony Warren, What about Praying For the Dead. The complete version is available here

What about Praying For the Dead?
-by Tony Warren

There are few doctrines so couched in man made tradition and superstition, as the Roman catholic belief that by praying for the dead, it will benefit these souls, and that they can also intercede for us. This is not only a totally unchristian idea, it is downright Pagan. Is God's loving kindness declared in the Grave that the dead receive blessings, and our prayers for them are answered? Man says yes, but God says no!

Psalms 88:10-12

* "Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.

* Shall thy loving kindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?

* Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? "

The land of forgetfulness is where the unsaved dead are. It is a place where there is no memory, where they are not capable of anything, because they are in darkness and silence. Death for them is a state of unconsciousness, as they wait their judgment at "The Last Day." They have no knowledge, no praising of God, and thus most assuredly, no intercessions.

Psalms 6:4-5

* "Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.

* For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?"

When the unsaved die, there is no consciousness or memory. How then are these souls supposedly interceding for us, suffering penance, or purging their sins, when they do not recall God, or anyone else? They don't speak with God, they don't pray for us, and they can't give God thanks! They have no remembrance!

What else is there to pray for?

The list of things to pray for is endless.
That we may sin less each day.
That we may give glory to God, all the time.
That people who are sick maybe healed, etc., etc.

There is a passage, which I don't remember off-hand, which says we are to continually pray.

We should pray about everything, but NOT for the dead. They report that George Washington would pray, each day, on his knees, for some 4 hours.

Hope this helps.