Purgatory

[Boanerge]

IMO: There are two kinds of Destruction, being because there are two kinds of Life.

There is this Life and there is Eternal Life. There is a reason why we have this life.

This life is where all the working is done. Not in the Eternal, why? Because the Eternal is like an object moving in one direction forever, what you do in this life determines what direction you will be moving. I don't believe that in the afterlife you will be moving towards fire (Purgatory) so that you can be able to move towards Paradise, that would mean that you never needed Christ but you couldve done it all on your own. If you move towards fire in the Eternal, you move that way for Eternity. No work we put in during the Eternal can change that direction That is the way i see it.

In this life, we can have rewards for the work we do. In the Eternal, only Christ can save you. Christ is not "having faith in purgatory". And the prayers of others can not take you out or "lessen" the fire. It seems that Purgatory sounds like a light version of Hell.

Since a Hell already exists, I am not going to pick purgatory because it sounds easier. It makes it seems like you can escape a piece of Hell in the Afterlife. But if you are there fore a reason, and you do not choose to get out the only way there is (Through Jesus Christ) Then there is no other way to get out. And if you already believe and trust in Jesus, then you were never there in the first place.

So then what happens to all those saints who we believe went into purgatory? What if they didn't, What if belief in Christ takes you directly to Paradise.

Purgatory might have been conceptualized to help understand the afterlife. But if the Blood of Christ was poured upon the saints and anointed them to live as He lived, then why say that the Blood of Christ was not able to take them out of purgatory? Remember? Jesus said "Lord forgive them for they know not what they do!" Do you know what this means? This means that those hidden sins that you did not even know you commited- (always pray to God to help reveal them to you), where you have been taught that Purgatory cleans you of- was in fact already taken up on that Cross.

Christ Died for the Past that you didn't know what you were doing, and Christ died for the sins that you haven't understood yet that you are doing. Now, Being redeemed by His blood, we grow in wisdom and learn the difference between right and wrong, when we learn we have done wrong, don't bring excuses, but bring a repentive heart at the feet of the Lord. When you have done wrong to your brothers and sisters, repent to them also, becuase Jesus said "What you do to them, you do to me." For they are or they will be of the same body as you. And if they have done wrong to you, forgive them. We forgive others because this is God's way of showing us how He forgives us.

So this is the choice, either the Blood of Christ is able to clean me, or Purgatory cleans me. With the blood of Christ, it is our repentance, and faith in Him that activates the healing power of His Love. I feel as if with purgatory i can do good deeds, and not ask for forgiveness, and go to purgatory, make sure i made alot of friends who can pray for me while im dead, and get out of purgatory, and go to paradise without ever going directly to God and repenting. But there is no way to escape God.

I am sure no one ever does such a blasphemous thing. But notice how you have to come up with yet another doctrine to make sure no one would think to do such a thing. Even so, We go to God whether we believe in purgatory or we don't. But Belief in purgatory is like saying "Lord, i know your blood saves me, but i'll trust in purgatory just in case. You'll never know if your blood can really save me of any due punishment." Belief in purgatory compromises your faith in the saving Blood of the Lamb. When you sin, just go to God and repent.

This is why i don't believe in it. So i speak for myself.

I don't mean to go to God and whine about what you know you did was wrong, and complain about how weak you are and how you will never change. Where is your faith? Repent means "Recognize what you did, and change your ways." It does not mean to "recognize what you did and suffer in guilt as a self-punishment"!(Penance?) Go, pray to God about the mess, and go and fix that tension between you and your brother or sister. Go, pray to God about your laziness, and go and be a responsible person. And Go in peace, your faith has healed you.

Do you have any sins that you know you are doing and haven't asked God for forgiveness yet? I am not saying to cry about it, or to make excuses for your sins, i mean to humble yourselves before the presence of the Lord, let the Spirit of God break you down, remold you and reshape you.. putting to death the old self.. Getting back up with a new strength, new faith, and ressurecting as a new person. Changing your ways and living with a Christlike mind. Because in this Life when God destroys you it means He puts to death the old you, in order to renew your spirit. And He will continue to do this as long as you walk in faith and repentive.

This is the Fire testing our faith.. God is a Living God who works with the Living.
This is why we go to God and ask for forgiveness and as you are heading towards change, God is providing you with the strength to change. If you use that strength to change, and you never thank God, then you changed yourself (or you assume it was on your own), this change is only temporary, and maybe the reason why you still fell into the same old sins. But when you use that strength in recognition that God is the one changing you, that all strength you have came from the Lord and therefore you thank Him for this change, then that change is more everlasting, because you would not want to go back to the old, knowing that God is making things better.

And if you fall, then keep trying and trying. Because Jesus said "Forgive your brother even seven times seven times." He was saying here what HE does with us who keep falling, He will keep forgiving until we finally get it and overcome that sin that makes us fall.

Are there any questions?

 

[Flynmonkie]

Absent from the body present with the lord. When we die and we are in spirit form, we will be in heaven with God. I am however still studying the Revelation ...But right now that is the only thing that makes sense to me. And your not debating your deliberating

Scripture simply does not give much information about the intermediate state. But what we do know from Scripture is enough to debunk wrong theories.



Ok please do not beat me for this post....and do not take it personal against me but here is the best description I have found (ducking my head over here) But I am giving this to you for your own reproof. (remember I like you and you like me OKAY?)
SOUL SLEEP. One view held by many is that the soul of a believer who dies remains unconscious until the resurrection. This view is found in some of the non-canonical writings of the early church. Its best-known advocates today are the Seventh-Day Adventists. They point out that the word “sleep” is often used in Scripture as a synonym for death. For example, Jesus told the disciples, “Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep” (John 11:11). And Paul described the dead in Christ as “them also which sleep in Jesus” (1 Thess. 4:14).

But the “sleep” referred to in such imagery has to do with the body, not the soul. In his account of the crucifixion, Matthew wrote of a great earthquake: “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose” (Matt. 27:52). It is the body, not the soul, that “sleeps” in death. The body lies in rest utterly devoid of any sensation or awareness, awaiting reconstitution and resurrection in eternal perfection to join the soul already in heaven, since death. But the soul enters the very presence of the Lord. This was affirmed again and again by the apostle Paul in the verses I cited above, as he described his desire to be absent from the body, so that he could be “present with the Lord” (2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23).

The souls of the departed enter into their rest. But it is a rest from labor and strife, not a rest of unconsciousness. The apostle John was told to write, “Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours” (Rev. 14:13). Yet he is clearly not describing a “rest” of unconscious sleep; in the scene John witnessed in heaven, the souls of the redeemed were there, actively singing and praising God (vv. 1–4).

Everything Scripture says about the death of believers indicates that they are immediately ushered consciously into the Lord’s presence. In the words of the Westminster Confession of Faith, “The bodies of men after death return to dust, and see corruption; but their souls, (which neither die nor sleep,) having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them. The souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies” (32.1).

PURGATORY. The Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory is nowhere taught in Scripture. It was devised to accommodate Catholicism’s denial of justification by faith alone. Here’s why:

Scripture very clearly teaches that an absolutely perfect righteousness is necessary for entry into heaven. Jesus said, “I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 5:20). He then added, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect” (v. 48)—thus setting the standard as high as it can possibly be set.

Later in His ministry, when the rich young ruler approached Jesus asking how he might enter heaven, Jesus upheld this same standard of absolute perfection. He began by declaring that “there is none good but one, that is, God” (Matt. 19:17)—not disclaiming sinless perfection for Himself, but plainly pointing out that such perfection is impossible for sinful humanity. Then, however, Jesus told the young man that in order to obtain eternal life, he must have a track record of perfect obedience to the law (vv. 17–21). Again and again, He made the required standard of righteousness impossibly high for all who would seek to earn God’s favor on their own.

The young ruler clearly did not understand or acknowledge his own sinfulness. He assured Jesus that he had indeed kept the law from his youth up (v. 20).

Jesus subtly pointed out the young man’s covetousness, which was a violation of the Tenth Commandment. From the outset of His conversation with the young man, the Lord was prodding him to confess that no one but God Himself is truly good. But the rich young ruler was unwilling to face his own sin, and so he finally went away without salvation.

The disciples marveled at this. The young man was evidently—from the human perspective—one of the most righteous individuals they knew. Notice that no one disputed his claim that he had obeyed the law. There must have been no overt sins in his life that anyone could point to. He was the best of men. So the disciples were floored when he walked away with no assurance of eternal life from Jesus. In fact, Jesus told them, “Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven” (v. 23).

Again, He was setting the standard at an impossible height. He was saying that the most fastidious legal observance is not enough. The most flawless external righteousness is not enough. All the worldly advantages of wealth are of no help. Only absolute perfection is acceptable to God. Our Lord kept underscoring these things because he wanted people to see the utter futility of seeking to earn righteousness by any system of works.

The disciples got the message. They asked, “Who then can be saved?” (v. 25).
And Jesus replied, “With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible” (v. 26).

We know from Paul’s treatise on justification in Romans 4 that God saves believers by imputing to them the merit of Christ’s perfect righteousness—not in any sense because of their own righteousness. God accepts believers in Christ. He clothes them with the perfect righteousness of Christ. He declares them perfectly righteous because of Christ. Their sins have been imputed to Christ, who has paid the full penalty. His righteousness is now imputed to them, and they receive the full merit for it. That is what justification by faith means.

 

[Flynmonkie]

He will keep forgiving until we finally get it and overcome that sin that makes us fall.

Are there any questions?

Nope other than well said!

 

[Lotar]

For those interested.

A Statement on
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Death, Resurrection and Immortality
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A Position Paper
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A Report of the
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Commission on Theology and Church Relations
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of the Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod
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March 15, 1969
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CONTENTS
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Introduction
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I. The Biblical Witness
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A. The Concept of Soul
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B. Death
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C. Life After Death
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1. The Old Testament
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2. The New Testament
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II. The Concepts of Soul, Death, and Life After Death in the Christian Tradition
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III. Summary Observations
​

INTRODUCTION
​

In 1962 the Cleveland convention of The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod received
​

some expressions of doctrinal concern regarding certain theological speculations in the
​

area of eschatology ("the last things"), especially as these touched questions of death,
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the soul, resurrection, and immortality (Reports and Memorials, 1962, p. 161). The
​

convention sketched the general framework within which these questions should be
​

answered (Proceedings, 1962, p. 106) and further resolved to refer these specific
​

questions together with others "to the Commission on Theology and Church Relations,
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to pastoral conferences, and to congregations for further study." (Res. 3-16B,
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Proceedings, 1962, p. 105)
​

The commission now offers the following position paper to the members of the Synod in
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a fraternal effort to meet the concerns reflected in the questions addressed to the
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Synod. While several scholarly essays were presented to the commission on these
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topics, the commission believes that the needs of the Synod will be best served by a
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concise treatment. This study addresses itself most specifically to the following
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concerns: Does the Bible teach that man has an immortal soul, which Christ died to
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save, and that, when a Christian dies, his soul goes to a blessed life with God? and:
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Does the Bible teach a physical resurrection of our flesh? (Reports and Memorials,
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1962, p.161)
​

I
​

THE BIBLICAL WITNESS
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A. The Concept "Soul"
​

The Biblical language concerning man's soul does not provide the basis for constructing
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a clear picture of the nature of man's being. Thus Scripture speaks of man as consisting
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of body and soul (Is. 10: 18; Matt 10: 28); of flesh and spirit (1 Cor. 5: 5); of mind and
​

flesh (Rom. 7:25); of spirit, soul, and body (1 Thess. 5: 23; see Heb. 4: 12); while in
​

other passages it speaks of him as a unitary being (Gen.2:7), to use a contemporary
​

expression. The Old Testament frequently uses "soul" (nephesh) as a synonym for the
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total person. (Gen. 12: 5; 34: 3; Ex. 1: 5; Lev. 4: 2; Joshua 11: 11; and so forth)
​

B. Death
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Scripture teaches that death is the penalty for sin (Gen.3:14-19) and that this penalty
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affects all men in their bodies and souls (Matt. 10: 28; 1 Cor. 15:42-50) Many passages
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in the Old Testament stress the dreadful character of death by speaking of it as eternal
​

destruction and by using other metaphors of finality (Ps. 92: 7; Prov. 10:25; Is. 26:14;
​

and so forth). At death the soul is not annihilated, but neither does it possess
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immortality by virtue of any natural or inherent qualities Man's eternal existence, either
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in the state which Scripture calls life or else in the state which it calls death, is
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determined by his relationship to Jesus Christ, crucified and risen.
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C. Life After Death
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1. The Old Testament
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The Old Testament Scriptures contain many, references to the continuation of life
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after death. For example, the patriarchs believed that after their death they would
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be "gathered to their fathers in peace. "This expression did not imply interment in
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a family grave, for it is used of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses, even though
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they were buried far from the land of their fathers (Gen. 25: 8-10; 35: 29; 49: 33;
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Num. 27: 13; Deut. 32: 50). The expression "he was gathered to his people" or
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"he slept with his people" shows the intense hope of the Israelite to be united
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with his ancestors, even in death. Our Lord summarized the Old Testament hope
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when He reminded the Sadducees that God was not the God of the dead but of
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the living. (Matt. 22: 32)
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Sheol, despite its often grim and shadowy character, was a place of continued
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existence in some form (Job 26:5-6; Num. 16:30; 1 Sam. 2:6). Some passages
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describe sheol as a place of darkness (Job 10: 20-22); or a place to hide (Job 14:
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13); or a place of hopelessness (Is. 28: 18) from which there is no return (Job 7:
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9). Other passages contain a more positive affirmation about life a fter death and
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assure the pious Israelite that God will not abandon His saints in death but will
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abide with them, deliver them from sheol, and receive them to glory. (Ps. 16: 9-
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11; 49: 15; 73: 24)
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2. The New Testament
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Jesus knew that death could not annihilate Him but that He would arise and
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through His rising destroy the power of death (John 11:25 ff.; 14:6; Mark 9:30-32;
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see Acts 2: 22-28; Rom. 1: 4; Eph. 1: 20). St. Paul cherished this same
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confidence (Phil. 1: 23; 2 Cor. 5: 8). Other passages describe the departed
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faithful as being with God. (Matt. 22: 29-32; Rev. 6: 9-11)
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The New Testament speaks of the departed faithful as existing in a conscious
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and blessed state which at the very least can be described as the persistence of
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the individual's identity before God. The faithful are described as being in the
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presence of God and of enjoying peace and rest with Him. They are also
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described as sleeping (1 Thess. 4:13 f.) or of being in the tombs (John 5:28 f.:
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Matt. 27: 51-53). The inspired writers speak of death variously as the separation
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of body and soul (Gen.35:18) or as the departure of the spirit (Acts 7: 59; Luke
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23: 46) or as the passing of the "I," the total person (Phil. 1: 23), "to be with
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Christ." The New Testament also teaches the physical resurrection of the body in
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several passages (John 5:28 f.; Rom. 8: 11;1 C or. 15: 51-54). Finally, the New
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Testament affirms that the physical bodies of the departed faithful will be
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glorified. (1 Cor. 15: 51-54; Phil. 3: 20-21)
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II
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THE CONCEPTS OF SOUL, DEATH, AND
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LIFE AFTER DEATH IN THE CHRISTIAN TRADITION
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The whole Christian tradition expresses in its doctrinal treatises, its hymns, and its
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liturgies the conviction that believers continue to exist after physical death. Sometimes
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these expressions employ the body- soul language which is so characteristic of
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Christian piety today; sometimes one finds unitary language. Thus Clement of Rome
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(A.D. 95) uses Biblical unitary language when he says that Sts. Peter and Paul went
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immediately to the holy place after their death (1 Clem 6:1 -7; see also 50:3). Irenaeus
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(ea. A.D. 175) employs the body-soul pattern of language and speaks of souls of
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Christians going to "invisible places designated for them by God," where, after the
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resurrection, they will receive bodies, "just as the Lord Himself." (Adversus Haereses 5:
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31; see also Martyrdom of Polycarp 17: 1)
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Martin Luther reflects the variety of Scriptural language when he speaks of death and of
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the condition of the departed faithful. In some passages he speaks of a distinction
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between body and soul (W. A. 36, 241), while in other passages he affirms the unitary
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nature of man also in the state between death and the resurrection (W. A., Tisehreden
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[Ser. 2, vol. V, No. 5534], 218 f.; 43, 218). Thus he can speak both of the whole
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Abraham being with God and of the "soul" of Abraham resting or serving God (W. A. 43,
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480). He also repeatedly expresses his faith that the body will be raised on the last day.
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(W. A. 12, 268; 36, 605)
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The Lutheran Confessions, the normative statement of Biblical doctrine for Lutherans,
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speaks, like Scriptures, of man as having a body and a soul (Formula of Concord,
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Epitome IX, 1: Large Catechism, Baptism 45; Smalcald Articles, Part III, Art. I, 11). But
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the references cited here clearly teach that man's body and soul are integrally united;
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both are corrupted by sin and subject to death (F. C., Epit. I, 4; S. D. I, 2. 46 f.; S. A.,
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Part III, Art. I, 11). Together they constitute man's essence or nature (F. C., S. D., I, 2).
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According to the Athanasian Creed the rational soul and the flesh are one man, as God
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and man are one Christ (35).
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The Confessions agree with Scripture and the all but unanimous tradition of the church
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in assigning significant theological meanings to death. The Confessions rule out the
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contemporary view that death is a pleasant and painless transition into a perfect world.
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For the death is destruction: the destruction of the sinful flesh so that believers may
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arise completely renewed (Apology XII, 153; F. C., Epit. I, 10). Death is also the divine
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eternal judgment on body and soul-a horrible and frightening prospect to contemplate -
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except for those who live in Jesus Christ.
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The Confessions affirm the persistence of personal identity beyond death. For example,
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the Smalcald Articles refer to the saints "in their graves and in heaven." (Part II, Art. II,
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28; II, III, 26; see also F. C.,S. D. I, 37; Apology XXI, 9)
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The Lutheran Confessions permit the use of the expression which is so deeply
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embedded in Christian piety: "The soul of the departed has gone to heaven to be with
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its Maker." But they require that this phrase be used in a context which includes a true,
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Scripture-based understanding of the meaning of death, of the resurrection of Jesus
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Christ, and of the nature of man's eternal existence
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Concerning the resurrection of the flesh, the Confessions are crystal-clear. The Formula
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of Concord speaks of our flesh rising (F. C., S. D. I, 46). The Large Catechism affirms
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that "our flesh will be put to death will be buried... and will come forth gloriously and
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arise." (Creed, 57)
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The Orthodox Lutheran dogmaticians of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries
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follow the general lead of the Confessions on these topics They also stress the oncefor-
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all character of Christ's resurrection and the full enjoyment of bliss which awaits the
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believer at the Last Day. Leonard Hutter (1563-1616) writes that the essential
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blessedness will not be achieved until the resurrection in Jesus Christ. He asserts that
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"the souls of....the believers in Christ are in the hands of God, awaiting there the
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glorious resurrection of the body and the full enjoyment of the eternal blessedness"
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(Compendium Locorum Theologicorum [Leipzig: C. L. Jacob, 1747], p. 644). Martin
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Chemnitz likewise confesses his faith in eternal life through Jesus Christ. (De Duabus
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Naturis [Leipzig, 1600], p. 176)
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Francis Pieper writes in a similar vein: "Holy Writ reveals but little of the state of the
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souls between death and the resurrection. In speaking of the List things, it directs our
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gaze primarily to Judgment Day and the events clustering around it." (Christian
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Dogmatics, trans. Walter W. F. Albrecht III [St. Louis, 1953], p.511)
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Reflecting Dr. Pieper's position, John Theodore Mueller declares: "The Christian hope
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of eternal life (John 17, 3) must... not be confounded With the pagan doctrine of the
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immortality of the soul." (Christian Dogmatics [St. Louis, 1934], p. 639)
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III
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SUMMARY OBSERVATIONS
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1. The Scriptures describe man's being in a variety of ways. For example, they describe
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him as consisting of body and soul, of spirit, soul, and body; and as a unitary being.
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Since all these insights are Scriptural, they need to be affirmed and defended, as they
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have been throughout the history of the church.
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2. The Scriptures declare that sin is the cause of death - temporal, spiritual, and eternal.
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Natural man is corrupted by sin in body and soul and is completely subject to death.
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Death is the destruction of the flesh (natural man), and it is this destruction which makes
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it possible for the believer to rise completely renewed.
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3. In some Scripture passages death is described as the departure of the spirit or the
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return of the spirit to its Maker; in others it is pictured as the passing of the "I," the total
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person, to the eternal realm.
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4. The Scriptures affirm the continued existence of all men with their personal identity
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intact between death and the resurrection, and thereafter. They teach that upon death
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believers are in the hands of God and that they are with Christ. Those who have
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rejected Christ will be condemned by the judgment of His Word. (John 12: 48)
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5. The Scriptures teach concerning the resurrection that "all who are in the tombs will
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hear His voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
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and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5: 28-29).
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Believers therefore "await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will change our lowly
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body to be like His glorious body."(Phil. 3: 20-21)
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6. The Scriptures and the Lutheran Confessions compel us:
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a. To reject the teaching that death terminates the existence of man so as to
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preclude the possibility of the persistence beyond death of his personal identity
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before God.
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b. To reject the teaching that at death man is annihilated in such a way as to
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preclude even fo r the grace and power of God the possibility of his physical
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resurrection, or of his final and eternal judgment.
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c. To reject the teaching that the "last things, "namely, the eschatological acts of
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divine judgment and salvation, are fully realized and consummated only within
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the realm of earthly history, so as to preclude a life or death to come.
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d. To reject the teaching that the resurrection should be conceived in such a way
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as to exclude the body (in effect the Gnostic heresy that matter is essentially evil
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and that only the "spirit" is capable of being saved).
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e. To reject the teaching that the soul is by nature and by virtue of an inherent
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quality immortal, as the pagans thought and as is taught in a number of fraternal
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orders today. This concept denies the Christian Gospel of the resurrection of our
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Lord and of the resurrection of the believers through Him alone.
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f. To reject the teaching that the soul "sleeps" between death and the
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resurrection in such a way that it is not conscious of bliss.
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7. When Scripture talks about death, the condition of the believer between death and
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the resurrection, and the resurrection itself, its primary purpose is to proclaim to the
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Christian what great things God has done for him through Jesus Christ. Through this
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witness, God offers to believers the sure hope of everlasting life with Jesus Christ. Thus
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the Holy Spirit creates in the believer joy and hope in the face of the last enemy, death.
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This is our Gospel hope.
​

 

[ps139]

Some pretty interesting responses so far, I appreciate them. The Catholic conception of purgatory is a final purification that must take place before we enter heaven. That is all that is officially taught. As for time period, whether its even a "place" or not, we leave that to speculation.
I found part of the CS Lewis quote:

Our souls demand Purgatory, don't they? Would in not break the heart if God said to us, 'It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy'? Should we not reply, 'With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I'd rather be cleaned first.' 'It may hurt, you know' - 'Even so, sir.'
I assume that the process of purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it. But I don't think the suffering is the purpose of the purgation. I can well believe that people neither much worse nor much better than I will suffer less than I or more. . . . The treatment given will be the one required, whether it hurts little or much.
My favorite image on this matter comes from the dentist's chair. I hope that when the tooth of life is drawn and I am 'coming round',' a voice will say, 'Rinse your mouth out with this.' This will be Purgatory. The rinsing may take longer than I can now imagine. The taste of this may be more fiery and astringent than my present sensibility could endure. But . . . it will [not] be disgusting and unhallowed."

- C.S.Lewis, Letters To Malcom: Chiefly on Prayer, chapter 20, paragraphs 7-10, pages 108-109