Purgatory? Why or Why not?

[Jay217]

Just a question about our members on the idea purgatory.

What is purgatory

Do you believe in purgatory

Why or why don't you believe the idea?

 

[ebia]

Depends what you mean by the term. The traditional popular picture has no end of serious problems, but the description given by Benedict XVI in Spe Salvi is fine.

 

[KM Richards]

the description given by Benedict XVI in Spe Salvi is fine.

What did he think?

Did he post any scriptural references?

 

[ebia]

.

Spe Saliv 47. Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ's Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy. It is clear that we cannot calculate the “duration” of this transforming burning in terms of the chronological measurements of this world. The transforming “moment” of this encounter eludes earthly time-reckoning—it is the heart's time, it is the time of “passage” to communion with God in the Body of Christ[39]. The judgement of God is hope, both because it is justice and because it is grace. If it were merely grace, making all earthly things cease to matter, God would still owe us an answer to the question about justice—the crucial question that we ask of history and of God. If it were merely justice, in the end it could bring only fear to us all. The incarnation of God in Christ has so closely linked the two together—judgement and grace—that justice is firmly established: we all work out our salvation “with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12). Nevertheless grace allows us all to hope, and to go trustfully to meet the Judge whom we know as our “advocate”, or parakletos (cf. 1 Jn 2:1).

 

[KM Richards]

Spe Saliv 47.

That's not in the Bible....got any scripture references???

Whoever this Benedict guy is...his writings aren't scripture.

 

[ebia]

That's not in the Bible....

No, its from Spe Salvi. The question is, is there anything about it that is unbiblical?

got any scripture references???

Scripture talks about judgement, about ultimate encounter with Christ, and about purifying with fire. Do you really need the chapter and verse numbers>

Whoever this Benedict guy is...

If you want to discuss Catholic thinking, it would be a good idea to familarise yourself with some of the main theologians involved. Benedict XVI is the current Pope!

his writings aren't scripture.

I didn't imply they were. The OP asked about purgatory. I pointed out that how Benedict talks about purgatory is rather different from the picture most people have in their heads. You asked what he said about it. I posted the relevant paragraph from his encyclical. The preceeding paragraph particularly refers to 1 Cor 3, however - like a lot of writing Paul himself, Benedict tends to allude to scripture rather than provide proof-texting references. So you might need to do some of your own work to think through whether or not what he's said is in line with scripture or not.

 

[KM Richards]

The question is, is there anything about it that is unbiblical?

Until what he is saying is shown to actually be in scripture...then yes, it has to be considered unbiblical because pergentory is not biblical.

If you claim that it is, I'd like to see the scripture references for it

Benedict tends to allude to scripture rather than provide proof-texting references.

Jesus quoted scripture...why doesn't this guy do the same?

 

[ebia]

Until what he is saying is shown to actually be in scripture...then yes, it has to be considered unbiblical because pergentory is not biblical.

Please explain how that description of final encounter goes against anything in scripture?

If you claim that it is, I'd like to see the scripture references for it

I've no axe to grind here. If you want to claim that purgatory is unscriptural (a) you need to start with the best description of purgatory out there - I believe this is just about it - and (b) then show how that runs against scripture.

There are certainly some classic presentations of purgatory that are clearly unscriptural (including those the Reformers rejected), but I don't see that this is.


In the end "purgatory" is a label, a suitcase for an idea. Not all explantions, not all possible contents of that suitcase, are identical or equally clearly unscriptural.

To just declare a label "unscriptural" or "heretical" without unpacking it to check is to worry more about 16th century labels than substantial concepts.

Jesus quoted scripture...why doesn't this guy do the same?

He does, if you read the whole letter. What he doesn't tend to do is pull out little proof-texts and join them together as though scripture is some kind of jigsaw puzzle. And, like Paul and Jesus he will often allude to scripture without providing either a precise quote or a chapter and verse number (the latter of which neither Paul nor Jesus ever provide).

 

[Jay217]

Thank you very much ebia for your insight! It is a nice view on it better than the traditional views I've learned about.

KM Richards, perhaps you'd like to give us your insight on this idea of purgatory.

Purgatory as a general sense is a time and/or place before you can/will ascend into heaven when you will be purified by the power / love of God and shed off your sin.

 

[KM Richards]

Please explain how that description of final encounter goes against anything in scripture?

Because...there's no scripture that gives that account.

So, this is a falsehood to believe when we die we go to some waiting room.

If you are willing to believe things that the Bible doesn't even get into...you'll believe some other religious traditions too.

That's all this is... religious tradition from a denomination that is famous for many traditions that aren't in the Bible

 

[ebia]

Because...there's no scripture that gives that account.

so nothing that speaks against it then, just an argument from silence?

So, this is a falsehood to believe when we die we go to some waiting room.

You're still addressing what you think purgatory is, not what Benedict described.

If you are willing to believe things that the Bible doesn't even get into...you'll believe some other religious traditions too.

That's all this is... religious tradition from a denomination that is famous for many traditions that aren't in the Bible

I see, we'll short-cut serious discourse and go straight to "it's catholic therefore its wrong".

 

[KM Richards]

I see, we'll short-cut serious discourse and go straight to "it's catholic therefore its wrong".

No, as far as I'm concerned...if it's not supported by scripture...it's wrong!

Don't care what denominational religious traditions we're talking about, if
it's not taught in the Bible, it's a false teaching!

Face it, the Bible doesn't teach pergentory...

 

[Jay217]

No, as far as I'm concerned...if it's not supported by scripture...it's wrong!

Don't care what denominational religious traditions we're talking about, if
it's not taught in the Bible, it's a false teaching!

Face it, the Bible doesn't teach pergentory...

Nothing Imperfect Can Get into Heaven.

All Men Have Sinned

Sin is an imperfection

By your logic It is impossible for all to go to heaven....

unless you believe in the fires of purification *cough* purgatory *cough* or a similar variation

 

[ebia]

No, as far as I'm concerned...if it's not supported by scripture...it's wrong!

How do you know it isn't supported by scripture when you won't even engage in a grown-up discourse about what it is?

 

[KM Richards]

Nothing Imperfect Can Get into Heaven.

All Men Have Sinned

Sin is an imperfection

The Blood of Jesus washes away all sin and imperfection in the eyes of God.

By your logic It is impossible for all to go to heaven....

unless you believe in the fires of purification *cough* purgatory *cough* or a similar variation

I'm not going by "logic", but by what God's Word teaches

You seem to have a bad cough there...
Hope that gets better, along with your ability to see

 

[MrPolo]

The Blood of Jesus washes away all sin and imperfection in the eyes of God.

Since Genesis tells us death is a consequence of sin, and since Christians still die, then you know right there that not "all" consequences of sin are taken away. Rather Christ saves us from eternal consequences of sin. We still encounter the pains of sin prior to heaven even if they are not serious enough to keep us out of heaven.

2 Samuel 12:13-14 gives an explicit example of this when David's sin of adultery is forgiven but he still incurs punishment as a result.

By the way, if something is not mentioned in the Bible, that doesn't make it "against" the Bible as you suggested. Nowhere does the Bible say we can use computers, but if I use a computer, it doesn't mean I'm going "against" what the Bible says.

Nevertheless the concept of purification, which is the nature of Purgatory, is all over the Bible.

 

[KM Richards]

Since Genesis tells us death is a consequence of sin, and since Christians still die...

I'm not going to die....ever!

Now, my body will quit working at some point and I will be separated from this natural world, but I will still be conscience, aware, and will be in the precense of the Lord.

You see...Jesus came and paid the price for sin.
Reckon He was a failure???

It sounds like you think He was...or you don't understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

you know right there that not "all" consequences of sin are taken away

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to
cleanse us from
ALL unrighteousness


Does that help you understand any better?

This was written by the Holy Spirit Who only repeats what He hears the Father say...

Reckon God lied???
Reckon the Blood of Jesus Christ isn't all that powerful???

 

[MrPolo]

I'm not going to die....ever!

Now, my body will quit working at some point and I will be separated from this natural world, but I will still be conscience, aware, and will be in the precense of the Lord.

Physical death is a consequence of sin whether you wish to call it "your body not working" or whatever. Therefore, Christ's work does not preserve you from all consequence of sin----eternal consequences yes---temporal consequences no. Hence the example of David in 2nd Samuel to which I alerted you.

Also, yes, Jesus will cleanse us from all unrighteousness. One of the ways that is done is by enduring God's chastisement, which He does to those who are already His children, for the sake of their holiness.

 

[KM Richards]

Physical death is a consequence of sin

No, it's a consequence of Adam's sin (not your sin or my sin) in that his union with satan contaminated this natural realm...making it necessary for God to eventually bring a close to this age and cleaning the earth with fire and starting all over again.

Physical "death" is nothing more than being separated from this natural realm due to it being contaminated with sin and darkness.

God never intended (and is not responsible for) mankind ever having to die in anyway...which is why He sent Jesus to pay the penalty of sin which is being separated from God, which Jesus did in our behalf.

Due to the fact the Jesus paid the price for all sin, and I have accepted the New Covenant which is a perfect Covenent between God and a perfect, resurrected Man (I'm IN Jesus)...I'm never going to die!

Hence the example of David in 2nd Samuel to which I alerted you

This Old Testament situation does not superceed what I have now under the New Testament...so that example is not applicable to me as a Born-Again child of the Most High God.

 

[Jay217]

No, it's a consequence of Adam's sin (not your sin or my sin) in that his union with satan contaminated this natural realm...making it necessary for God to eventually bring a close to this age and cleaning the earth with fire and starting all over again.

Physical "death" is nothing more than being separated from this natural realm due to it being contaminated with sin and darkness.

God never intended (and is not responsible for) mankind ever having to die in anyway...which is why He sent Jesus to pay the penalty of sin which is being separated from God, which Jesus did in our behalf.

Due to the fact the Jesus paid the price for all sin, and I have accepted the New Covenant which is a perfect Covenent between God and a perfect, resurrected Man (I'm IN Jesus)...I'm never going to die!






This Old Testament situation does not superceed what I have now under the New Testament...so that example is not applicable to me as a Born-Again child of the Most High God.

Satan is more of a judge / temptor, he wants us to fail and does his best to endorse his value's but his only power that which we give him.

God Gave Adam Free will and Adam accepted sin as part of him, God did not want it therefore punished Adam justly.

Jesus paid the price for all the past sin and will reedeem of our present if we let him. we have the choice to reject Jesus and those who do not repent before death and not accept the fires of purification will not be saved.

I too have accepted the New Covenant however I do not believe it's perfect, since Jesus left the physical world It has been in charge of Mankind and like all men the church Sins as well. If the Covenant was perfect it would not be led by men and the Church would not be divided. Corruption of man fractured the church and many denominations have formed since then, How can we all believe different things and believe we are the same?

I know i accept the Lord Jesus Christ as my Savior who was born of the virgin mary suffered under pontius pilate, was crucified and died, decended into the dead and on the 3rd day rose again, he ascended into heaven and now sits at the right hand of god the father Almighty who come judge the living and the dead.