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Purgatory? Why or Why not?

papaJP

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Are you trying to say purgatory is part of the fleshly (earthly) life?

If not you make no sense. When we die the first death we are spirit and soul and we are either cleansed by the blood and forgiven or we are lost and nothting will change our condition.

I can tell you that I had many arguments about this in a RCC Seminary where I received a Masters in Scripture and Theology.

I convinced many students and professors that purgatory was unscriptural and not from God.

I will not waste all the space to post Bible references that refute this teaching for the sake of time and space.

I will tell you what the Cardinal and the Priest who was the president of the school said about me at the graduation.

This man is not RCC and never will be but I can testify that we learned as much about walking with God from Him as He learned about the Bible and God from us.

Do not put your trust in teachings that are not Biblical and confirmed by God. God bless all who seek a true walk with the True God.
 
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Jay217

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Well What i hate most about that sense of thinking is it awefully sounds alot like you are trying to say that you are perfect because Jesus died for us... which doesn't really hold much water. He died for our past sins and let us have the ability to be easily saved through our own faith and work. IE no physical sacrifices have to be made for a personal journey into Christ.

By saying that because he died we are all made perfect is more of an embarresment, as i can name a few sins i have committed on the top of my head, and with there only being 2 people people ever on earth (Virgin Mary And Jesus Christ) being perfect that means you are imperfect which is a complete contradiction to your statement.

Just because we follow a perfect lord doesn't mean that we won't fall short of perfection because we all do but it is through his grace and his purification on death that can truly make us perfect


It is also said that not everyone must endure the fires of hell but for the majority of us we will. Paul and many of our top religious leaders live their life as closely as humanly possible to Follow the Message and have had times of purification (repetance),

Big thing is many of us cant fully repent our life work of imperfection (sin) right before we die. If your gas line under your house blows up and you still have sin on you without purification after death you'll be condemned to hell.

Jesus said there will be Some not fit to enter heaven in this age or the age to come. With that there comes the conclusion that there be some who will not me accepted into heaven but only after, so where would these beings be until they are forgiven?

And as for purifying fires Our Faith shall all be tested by fires of purification... sounds like a verse about purifying fire to me... (its been posted quite a ways back)

And a little thing
As we are all imperfect here on earth, and heaven is perfect so One must conclude there must be a purification. And not every good Christian can be perfectly cleansed before they die so without the purified exception. we are all are condemned to hell (which is not what God has intended).
 
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CatholicForSure

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Just a question about our members on the idea purgatory.

What is purgatory

Do you believe in purgatory

Why or why don't you believe the idea?


Purgatory



The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031).

The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.


Two Judgments


When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that "it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be. At the end of time, when Jesus returns, there will come the general judgment to which the Bible refers, for example, in Matthew 25:31-32: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." In this general judgment all our sins will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2–5).

Augustine said, in The City of God, that "temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment" (21:13). It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper" (Luke 12:59).


Money, Money, Money


One argument anti-Catholics often use to attack purgatory is the idea that the Catholic Church makes money from promulgating the doctrine. Without purgatory, the claim asserts, the Church would go broke. Any number of anti-Catholic books claim the Church owes the majority of its wealth to this doctrine. But the numbers just don’t add up.

When a Catholic requests a memorial Mass for the dead—that is, a Mass said for the benefit of someone in purgatory—it is customary to give the parish priest a stipend, on the principles that the laborer is worth his hire (Luke 10:7) and that those who preside at the altar share the altar’s offerings (1 Cor. 9:13–14). In the United States, a stipend is commonly around five dollars; but the indigent do not have to pay anything. A few people, of course, freely offer more. This money goes to the parish priest, and priests are only allowed to receive one such stipend per day. No one gets rich on five dollars a day, and certainly not the Church, which does not receive the money anyway.

But look at what happens on a Sunday. There are often hundreds of people at Mass. In a crowded parish, there may be thousands. Many families and individuals deposit five dollars or more into the collection basket; others deposit less. A few give much more. A parish might have four or five or six Masses on a Sunday. The total from the Sunday collections far surpasses the paltry amount received from the memorial Masses.


A Catholic "Invention"?


Fundamentalists may be fond of saying the Catholic Church "invented" the doctrine of purgatory to make money, but they have difficulty saying just when. Most professional anti-Catholics—the ones who make their living attacking "Romanism"—seem to place the blame on Pope Gregory the Great, who reigned from A.D. 590–604.

But that hardly accounts for the request of Monica, mother of Augustine, who asked her son, in the fourth century, to remember her soul in his Masses. This would make no sense if she thought her soul would not benefit from prayers, as would be the case if she were in hell or in the full glory of heaven.

Nor does ascribing the doctrine to Gregory explain the graffiti in the catacombs, where Christians during the persecutions of the first three centuries recorded prayers for the dead. Indeed, some of the earliest Christian writings outside the New Testament, like the Acts of Paul and Thecla and the Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity (both written during the second century), refer to the Christian practice of praying for the dead. Such prayers would have been offered only if Christians believed in purgatory, even if they did not use that name for it. (See Catholic Answers’ Fathers Know Best tract The Existence of Purgatory for quotations from these and other early Christian sources.)


Why No Protests?


Whenever a date is set for the "invention" of purgatory, you can point to historical evidence to show the doctrine was in existence before that date. Besides, if at some point the doctrine was pulled out of a clerical hat, why does ecclesiastical history record no protest against it?

A study of the history of doctrines indicates that Christians in the first centuries were up in arms (sometimes quite literally) if anyone suggested the least change in beliefs. They were extremely conservative people who tested a doctrine’s truth by asking, Was this believed by our ancestors? Was it handed on from the apostles? Surely belief in purgatory would be considered a great change, if it had not been believed from the first—so where are the records of protests?

They don’t exist. There is no hint at all, in the oldest writings available to us (or in later ones, for that matter), that "true believers" in the immediate post-apostolic years spoke of purgatory as a novel doctrine. They must have understood that the oral teaching of the apostles, what Catholics call tradition, and the Bible not only failed to contradict the doctrine, but, in fact, confirmed it.

It is no wonder, then, that those who deny the existence of purgatory tend to touch upon only briefly the history of the belief. They prefer to claim that the Bible speaks only of heaven and hell. Wrong. It speaks plainly of a third condition, commonly called the limbo of the Fathers, where the just who had died before the redemption were waiting for heaven to be opened to them. After his death and before his resurrection, Christ visited those experiencing the limbo of the Fathers and preached to them the good news that heaven would now be opened to them (1 Pet. 3:19). These people thus were not in heaven, but neither were they experiencing the torments of hell.

Some have speculated that the limbo of the Fathers is the same as purgatory. This may or may not be the case. However, even if the limbo of the Fathers is not purgatory, its existence shows that a temporary, intermediate state is not contrary to Scripture. Look at it this way. If the limbo of the Fathers was purgatory, then this one verse directly teaches the existence of purgatory. If the limbo of the Fathers was a different temporary state, then the Bible at least says such a state can exist. It proves there can be more than just heaven and hell.


"Purgatory Not in Scripture"


Some Fundamentalists also charge, as though it actually proved something, "The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture." This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.


Why Go To Purgatory?


Why would anyone go to purgatory? To be cleansed, for "nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27). Anyone who has not been completely freed of sin and its effects is, to some extent, "unclean." Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to be worthy of heaven, which is to say, he has been forgiven and his soul is spiritually alive. But that’s not sufficient for gaining entrance into heaven. He needs to be cleansed completely.

Fundamentalists claim, as an article in Jimmy Swaggart’s magazine, The Evangelist, put it, that "Scripture clearly reveals that all the demands of divine justice on the sinner have been completely fulfilled in Jesus Christ. It also reveals that Christ has totally redeemed, or purchased back, that which was lost. The advocates of a purgatory (and the necessity of prayer for the dead) say, in effect, that the redemption of Christ was incomplete. . . . It has all been done for us by Jesus Christ, there is nothing to be added or done by man."

It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.


No Contradiction


The Fundamentalist resistance to the biblical doctrine of purgatory presumes there is a contradiction between Christ’s redeeming us on the cross and the process by which we are sanctified. There isn’t. And a Fundamentalist cannot say that suffering in the final stage of sanctification conflicts with the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement without saying that suffering in the early stages of sanctification also presents a similar conflict. The Fundamentalist has it backward: Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. Rather, the cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because "[f]or the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness" (Heb. 12:11).


Nothing Unclean


Purgatory makes sense because there is a requirement that a soul not just be declared to be clean, but actually be clean, before a man may enter into eternal life. After all, if a guilty soul is merely "covered," if its sinful state still exists but is officially ignored, then it is still a guilty soul. It is still unclean.

Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that "nothing unclean shall enter heaven." From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul, even if "covered," remains a dirty soul and isn’t fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or "purged" of its remaining imperfections. The cleansing occurs in purgatory. Indeed, the necessity of the purging is taught in other passages of Scripture, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, which declares that God chose us "to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit." Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive "for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."
 
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If you boil down the teaching of Purgatory it basically states that Christ's blood did not atone for all of our sins. There are still some "stains" that need to be purged before the sinner can enter "bliss." It is really too bad that Jesus didn't purge our sins beforehand isn't it. Heb 1:3 "[Christ is] the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high." As usual the RCC is wrong. Christ purged our sins 2000 years ago. No "mass" can be said to purge our sins, no money needs to be paid to the priest in order to get the sinner out of purgatory because there simply is no such a place.

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patricius79

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Just a question about our members on the idea purgatory.

What is purgatory

Do you believe in purgatory

Why or why don't you believe the idea?

purgatory( hades ) refers to a place for those souls that have died in Christ but are not entirely saved

they are being saved "through fire" 1 Cor 3:15

I do believe it because it is the constant teaching of the Trinitarian Church and the constant practice to pray for the dead

to my knowledge, none of the ECFs objected to this well known practice and Biblical interpretation
 
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Purgatory is not hades. The New Testament uses the Greek word Hades to refer to the temporary abode of the dead. This is the "holding place" for the unsaved prior to Judgment Day, rather like our jail is the holding place for a criminal until the judge pronounces his sentence upon the convict after which he is finally sent to prison. Purgatory is supposedly a holding place for the "imperfectly purified" Christian. Indeed the RCC states “all who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation, but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven” (CCC 1030).

Purgatory is supposed to "purge" us of our sins. There are two major problems with this belief. First of all our sins were completely and totally purged by none other than Jesus Christ Himself according to Hebrews 1:3. "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.

The concept of purgatory was completely unknown and foreign to the writers of the NT. The RCC invented purgatory back when the average person couldn't read so they relied on their priests to interpret the scriptures for them. The temptation to bring in billions of dollars into the RCC coffers was too big of a temptation so they dreamed up this demonic belief and forced it upon unsuspecting adherants.

Your reference to 1 Cor 3:15 as being a proof text of purgatory is completely in error. "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. The man's WORKS are tested by fire, not the man himself.

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In my opinion, thinking that purgatory is necessary undermines the sacrifice of Jesus. It's like saying his blood was not enough to make us clean. I tend to believe what Jesus said at the cross, "it is finished"....paid in full.. Done. .

Agree 100%. Apparantly the RCC sees our sins as more powerful than Christ's blood, so much so that His blood needs "help" in cleansing us from our sins via purgatory. Can you imagine the shock when they stand before Christ and hear from Him that His blood was sufficient and purgatory is from the pit of hell.

They claim we have the "stain" of sin on our soul that only purgatory can clean. Too bad the word "stain" is not found anywhere in the NT. I ignore them when possible just like I ignore Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons.

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patricius79

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we have conflicting traditions

first 1 Cor 3:15 says the person will be saved through fire, not his works

also the Church has always prayed for the dead. 1 Cor 15:29

lastly, yes Christ purged us from our sins through his Cross. yet the writer of Hebrews says

"strive for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord"

and Paul says

"Let us cleanse ourselves of every defilement"

so it is a process
 
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sheina

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Salvation is not a process...it is a one time event. We are not saved through fire, we are saved by trusting in the finished work (His shed blood) of Christ on the cross of Calvary.

Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Just because a church has always prayed for the dead, doesn't make the teaching a biblical teaching.

1 Cor. 3:15 is speaking of the Bema/Judgment Seat of Christ where Christ will judge the saved for their service/works . All our sin was judged at the cross. There is no purgatory.

There is not a word in the Bible encouraging Christians to seek help from the dead. The only support for this doctrine is found in an apocryphal book, II Maccabees.

The Bible teaches men to pray to God in the name of Jesus Christ, not to dead men or in the name of dead men. There is not one New Testament example of God's people praying to the dead or approaching God through any mediator other than Jesus Christ, the Son. The only way to God is through the sacrifice and name of Jesus Christ.

Scripture does not contradict itself. All our sins were paid for IN FULL on the cross. You are taking Hebrews 12:14 out of context

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

Hebrews 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

The Bible speaks of holiness or sanctification (they are translated from exactly the same Greek word) in two ways: position and practice.

The Bible says, “You are saved, now act like you are saved.” Hebrews 12:14 is not teaching that practical holiness is the means of salvation. That would be salvation by works.Hebrews 12:14 is teaching us, rather, that practical holiness is the evidence of one’s salvation. It is also teaching that holiness is a gift of God and no one can see the Lord without this gift.
 
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patricius79

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Paul repeatedly refers to completing in his own body the sufferings of Christ on behalh of the Church

Moreover, preaching the Gospel, hearing it and understanding it, believing and confessing it are all works done through the grace of the Cross AND Resurrection

Paul refers to "salvation through fire" 1 Cor 3:15 and "salvation through sanctification"

Scripture says that Christians "have been saved", "are being saved", and "will be saved"

He also refers to those being "baptized for the dead"--ie. those suffering for the dead

all of this seems inconsistent with the "faith alone" oral tradition used in regard to Purgatory, which the historic Trinitarian Church sees as part of Christ's grace and the finished work of Jesus Christ
 
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sheina

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Paul repeatedly refers to completing in his own body the sufferings of Christ on behalh of the Church
Christ FINISHED our redemption on the cross. Paul does not refer to completing in his own body the sufferings of Christ on behalf of the Church. Jesus' blood cleanses the believer from all sin and gives him perfect righteousness before God. No true believer will ever suffer fiery torment for his own sins.

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Can you provide Scripture to substantiate this teaching?
Moreover, preaching the Gospel, hearing it and understanding it, believing and confessing it are all works done through the grace of the Cross AND Resurrection
Since when is "preaching, hearing, understanding believing and confessing the Gospel" works? One thing is for sure, "believing and confessing" are NOT works. I can't figure out where you come up with the teaching that the others are works also.
Paul refers to "salvation through fire" 1 Cor 3:15 and "salvation through sanctification"
There is NO "salvation through fire" in 1 Cor. 3:15. That verse speaks of a believer's works as being tried by fire. There will be works that will be burned up, not the believer. A believer will NOT lose their salvation even though their works are burned.

We are not "saved through sanctification". We ARE already sanctified (set apart to God from sin when we trusted Christ by grace through faith.
Scripture says that Christians "have been saved", "are being saved", and "will be saved"
That is sanctification...NOT salvation. We are sanctified because we are justified by faith.
He also refers to those being "baptized for the dead"--ie. those suffering for the dead
It is probably referring to the act of baptism itself. We are baptized for the dead in the sense that we are baptized to symbolize Christ’s dead, burial, and resurrection (Romans 6:3-5). “As they receive baptism as an emblem of ‘death’ in voluntarily going under the water, so they receive it as an emblem of the resurrection unto eternal life in coming up out of the water; thus they are baptized for the dead, in perfect faith of the resurrection” (Adam Clarke)

Paul is addressing the issue of bodily resurrection, which is the theme of this entire chapter. He is saying simply that “if the dead do not rise, why are we baptized to symbolize the resurrection of the dead?”

Living saints do not get baptized "by proxy", nor does a believer "suffer for the dead". Unless you have Scriptures to back this us, it is definitely an unbiblical and "dead" issue.
all of this seems inconsistent with the "faith alone" oral tradition used in regard to Purgatory, which the historic Trinitarian Church sees as part of Christ's grace and the finished work of Jesus Christ
There is no purgatory.
 
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patricius79

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Christ FINISHED our redemption on the cross. Paul does not refer to completing in his own body the sufferings of Christ on behalf of the Church..

he does so in Col 1:24. see also 2 Tim 1:6

likewise in 1 Cor 5 Paul refers to a man suffering punishment "so that his soul might be saved"



Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

amen


Since when is "preaching, hearing, understanding believing and confessing the Gospel" works?

since they were things that humans do (verbs), just like suffering, works of mercy, etc


There is NO "salvation through fire" in 1 Cor. 3:15.

"that person will be saved, but only as through fire"

We are not "saved through sanctification".

"salvation through sanctification" (2 Thes 2:13)

Paul also refers to people being "baptized for the dead" (1 Cor 15:29)

as John said: "he will baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire"
 
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sheina

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1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

"As by fire" does not mean "saved, but only as through fire"

The "works" of the believer are tried BY fire...not the believer himself/herself. This person is ALREADY saved. That person's works were tried BY fire. Even if ALL his/her "works" were burned up, that believer would NOT lose their salvation...however they will lose reward. This verse does NOT describe the non-existent place of purgatory.
 
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patricius79

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1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
.

right. so apparently such person are saved through a purification after death

C.S. Lewis, like the early Trinitarian fathers such as Augustine, testifies to the doctrine of Purgatory (Hades) which the historic Trinitarian Church finds in verses like Mt 12:32 (note: Paul refers to heaven as "the age to come"), Mt 5:25,26, Lk 16:23,25,27

C.S Lewis writes:

"Make no mistake," He says, "if you let me, I will make you perfect. The moment you put yourself in My hands, that is what you are in for. Nothing less, or other, than that. You have free will, and if you choose, you can push Me away. But if you do not push Me away, understand that I am going to see this job through. Whatever suffering it may cost you in your earthly life, whatever inconceivable purification it may cost you after death, whatever it costs Me, I will never rest, nor let you rest, until you are literally perfect — until My Father can say without reservation that He is well pleased with you, as He said He was well pleased with me. This I can do and will do. But I will not do anything less."

(Mere Christianity, New York: Macmillan, 1960, 172)
 
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