Purgatory - Must we believe it!

[MariaRegina]

PURGATORY

We have been having a discussion regarding the Catholic teaching about purgatory over in the Orthodox Forum in the thread entitled: Didache - The Teaching of the Twelve. We felt that it was best to answer the questions here. So here they are:

The questions were raised

(1) Is purgatory a place?

(2a) Is it the upper part of hell?

(2b) Is it also called "Sheol?"

(3a) Has it ever been defined by a Church Council?

(3b) If it has been defined, where, when and what was defined?

(4) Do Catholics have to believe in purgatory and in indulgences?

(5a) How are we purified on this earth?

(5b) How are the souls purified in purgatory?

(6) What is the purifying fire that the souls in purgatory suffer?

(7) What about the story of the desk in the Vatican with the handprint burned into it?

Lovingly in Christ,
Elizabeth

 

[CopticOrthodox]

From the CCC:
1031. "The Church gives the name PURGATORY to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the ******.[Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on PURGATORY especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:[Cf. 1 Cor 3:15 ; 1 Pet 1:7 .] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.[St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:31 .] "

 

[CopticOrthodox]

I believe the official Catholic doctrine defines no more than it being a state where one's soul is purified of any remaining sins & made perfect. Once one is there they are assured that they will reach Heaven. I don't think there's anything more that must be believed by Catholics, the rest is just popular theology or oppinion, I hope I will be corrected if I'm wrong.

 

[geocajun]

I believe you have it right CopticOrthodox

 

[geocajun]

PURGATORY

We have been having a discussion regarding purgatory over in the Orthodox Forum in the thread entitled: Didache - The Teaching of the Twelve. We felt that it was best to answer the questions here. So here they are:

your post confuses me, are you speaking about what the orthodox believe? then why post it here in a Catholic forum? or are you wanting to tell us what we Catholics believe?

 

[MariaRegina]

Dear Geo:

Sorry, This is a Catholic forum -- and purgatory is a very Catholic Doctrine. So this is why it is appropriate for it to be posted in this forum. Do you agree?

I'd like to see some of the doctrinal statements from the Council of Florence, etc.

Do you have any scriptural quotes with which the Protestants could relate to?

Lovingly in Christ,
Elizabeth

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness

Matt. 5:25,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 - these verses allude to a temporary state of purgation called a "prison." There is no exit until we are perfect, and the last penny is paid.

Matt. 12:32 - Jesus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for more than 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, to atone for their sins. These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him. But there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed, in the state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits were in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. Even the propensity to sin is uncleanliness. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purificatioin, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.


II. Purification After Death By Fire

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 - Paul says though he will be saved, "but only" through fire. The phrase "but only" in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both rewarded and saved by fire.

1 Cor. 3:15 - when Paul teaches that those whose work is burned up will suffer loss, the phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. This means that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, which cannot mean either heaven (no need for it) or hell (expiation no longer exists).

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death.

1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17).

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins.

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold.

Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God's purification of the righteous at their death.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

(1) Is purgatory a place?

We don't know?

(2a) Is it the upper part of hell?

I understated it to be a suburb of Heaven.

(2b) Is it also called "Sheol?"

Don't know...

(3a) Has it ever been defined by a Church Council?

It has been defined in so much as we know it is real. See CCC 1031

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the ******. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

"As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come."

(3b) If it has been defined, where, when and what was defined?

Check the Councils of Florence.

(4) Do Catholics have to believe in purgatory and in indulgences?

Yes. I believe so.

(5a) How are we purified on this earth?

Yes.

(5b) How are the souls purified in purgatory?

Sorry, don't know.

(6) What is the purifying fire that the souls in purgatory suffer?

Could be real fire, or just a longing to be with God. I don't think we know for sure...

(7) What about the story of the desk in the Vatican with the handprint burned into it?

No idea, sounds interesting... anyone know?

Sorry, I wasn't as helpful, as I thought I could have been

 

[artnalex]

Dear Geo:

Sorry, This is a Catholic forum -- and purgatory is a very Catholic Doctrine. So this is why it is appropriate for it to be posted in this forum. Do you agree?

I think it is a very EO doctrine as well, just not in such detail.

I'd like to see some of the doctrinal statements from the Council of Florence, etc.

Feel fre to search at New Advent .

Do you have any scriptural quotes with which the Protestants could relate to?

Since this is OBOB, and protestants have not yet chimed in, what is the point in proving to ourselves what we believe.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

Let me clearify, when I say Purgatory is a "suburb of Heaven," I just mean this:

We as Catholics believe once someone gets to Purgatory, there is NO CHANCE at that person going to Hell. Once they have made it to Purgatory the next step is heaven.

So calling it a part of hell, would be misleading,

Am I way off?? Someone !

 

[MariaRegina]

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm#II

I. CATHOLIC DOCTRINE

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions. The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Union drawn up by the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent which (Sess. XXV) defined: "Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful" (Denzinger, "Enchiridon", 983). Further than this the definitions of the Church do not go, but the tradition of the Fathers and the Schoolmen must be consulted to explain the teachings of the councils, and to make clear the belief and the practices of the faithful.

 

[MariaRegina]

http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

"Purgatory Not in Scripture"


Some Fundamentalists also charge, as though it actually proved something, "The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture." This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.

 

[geocajun]

well lets just see what the good Dr. Ott has to report.

Purgatory:
dogma of the faith:
"The souls of the just which, in the moment of death, are burdened with venial sins or temporal punishment due to sins, enter Purgatory"

"The Union Councils of Lyons and of Florence uphold the purifying fire and the expiatory character of the penal sufferings: "The souls of those who depart this life with true repentance and in the love of God, before they have rendered satisfaction for the trespasses and negligences by the worthy fruits of penance, are purified after death with the punishments of purification." --Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma

also dogma "The purifying fire will not continue after the General Judgement"

 

[Benedicta00]

Let me clearify, when I say Purgatory is a "suburb of Heaven," I just mean this:

We as Catholics believe once someone gets to Purgatory, there is NO CHANCE at that person going to Hell. Once they have made it to Purgatory the next step is heaven.

So calling it a part of hell, would be misleading,

Am I way off?? Someone !

Not at all.

 

[Skripper]

PURGATORY

We have been having a discussion regarding the Catholic teaching about purgatory over in the Orthodox Forum in the thread entitled: Didache - The Teaching of the Twelve. We felt that it was best to answer the questions here. So here they are:

The questions were raised

(1) Is purgatory a place?

(2a) Is it the upper part of hell?

(2b) Is it also called "Sheol?"

(3a) Has it ever been defined by a Church Council?

(3b) If it has been defined, where, when and what was defined?

(4) Do Catholics have to believe in purgatory and in indulgences?

(5a) How are we purified on this earth?

(5b) How are the souls purified in purgatory?

(6) What is the purifying fire that the souls in purgatory suffer?

(7) What about the story of the desk in the Vatican with the handprint burned into it?

Lovingly in Christ,
Elizabeth

I haven't yet even read the first response but I would say this is too much for one thread. Maybe narrow it down a bit?

 

[Credo]

So calling it a part of hell, would be misleading

Depends upon what you mean by "hell". From the Catechism of the Council of Trent in reference to the Apostles' Creed "He descended into hell":

Hell...signifies those secret abodes in which are detained the souls that have not obtained the happiness of heaven. In this sense the word is frequently used in Scripture. Thus the Apostle says: At the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and in hell; (Philip. ii. 10.) and in the Acts of the Apostles St. Peter says that Christ the Lord is again risen, having loosed the sorrows of hell. (Acts ii. 24.)
Different Abodes Called "Hell"
These abodes are not all of the same nature, for among them is that mosst loathsome and dark prison in which the souls of the [cursed] (couldn't put the actual word here, but I think you get the point) are tormented with the unclean spirits in eternal and inextingishable fire. This place is called gehenna, the bottomless pit, and is hell strictly so-called.

This is what most people picture when they hear the word "hell". This can be a bit misleading, however, as the next bit explains.

Among them is also the fire of purgatory, in which the souls of just men are cleansed by a temporary punishment, in order to be admitted into their eternal country, into which nothing defiled entereth. (Apoc. xxi. 27.)...

The fire mentioned here is also backed up by St. Paul's words:
1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be manifest. For the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire. And the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Whether there is actual fire as we know it here on earth or not, I'm not sure; but it definitely denotes suffering of some sort.

Lastly, the third kind of abode is that into which the souls of the just before the coming of Christ the Lord, were received, and where, without experiencing any sort of pain, but supported by the blessed hope of redemption, they enjoyed peaceful repose. To liberate these holy souls, who, in the bosom of Abraham were expecting the Saviour, Christ the Lord descended into hell.

This is the Jewish abode known as "sheol", also called "hades" in Greek; it was the abode of the dead. This also leads me to believe that sheol and purgatory are indeed different places.

Whew!!!! Now I'm tired!

 

[Skripper]

I haven't yet even read the first response but I would say this is too much for one thread. Maybe narrow it down a bit?

Okay, now I've read all respones.

 

[geocajun]

Okay, now I've read all respones.

wow, that was quick!

 

[Skripper]

wow, that was quick!

Much of what was posted, biblical citations, the Apostles' creed, statements from councils, etc., I've read before and am familiar with, so there was very little "new" material that I had to really digest . . . that could have certainly taken a while for a slow study like me!

 

[MariaRegina]

This is the Jewish abode known as "sheol", also called "hades" in Greek; it was the abode of the dead. This also leads me to believe that sheol and purgatory are indeed different places.

Whew!!!! Now I'm tired!

My dearest Credo!

Great Work! Axion!

That is great Credo. That is why I like these threads. Together we learn so much.

Muchas gracias!

Your Sister in Christ,
Elizabeth