Purgatory - Must we believe it!

BAChristian · Nov 4, 2003

blessed2 said:
And how are you supposed to act as a christian?

I'm sorry you feel that way, but let me tell you how you're supposed to act -- you're supposed to not come in here, trying to purposely rouse someone about their faith, which is EXACTLY what he did.

He could've came in here, and asked his questions politely instead of acting the way he did. He chose not to...there IS a way to ask about things that you don't understand without being sarcastic and being a smartellic...

I was rather, "nice" to him. I could have told him off, but I didn't. My act of sarcasm was doing him a favor. I ignored him because that's how I deal with people like him...I'd rather not commit a mortal sin by allowing it to get me upset enough to say something I'll truly regret.

Go do a search on all of my posts where I ask about the Catholic faith. Go back as far as August if you want -- you won't find me disparaging the Catholic faith, like 99% of everyone that comes in here does...

Oh, and BTW, your little comment about NYJ -- was uncalled for. He, like many others around here, is rather tired of everyone trying purposely to destroy our faith. If you can't see that going on around you in IDD and PRE, then I don't know what to tell you.

BAChristian · Nov 4, 2003

edited

nyj · Nov 4, 2003

isshinwhat · Nov 4, 2003

Blessed2

My sister is catholic and what i do know about purgatory is based on her telling me that if you were a liar that you'd have to go there for who knows how long and have snakes crawling out of your mouth to teach you not to lie.

Like I said, there has been a whole lot of theological speculation which has tainted Purgatory in the minds of many. The snake thing is one of them. The pain of Purgatory is, I believe, the same pain of conviction what we experience on earth. It is the "purifying fire" of Judgment Day that reveals our works that are not based on Christ for what they are (1 Cor. 3:15). I believe the pain of conviction will be greater than on earth, because it is our final conviction, what Eastern Catholics/Orthodox call the Final Theosis.

This will be the last time we realize that we have separated ourselves needlessly from God, and not lived our life in Him as much as He called us to. Then, instead of a greater life in the Holy Spirit like our earthly convictions led us to, our Final Conviction, Purgatory, will lead us into Heaven, full life in the Blessed Trinity. I hope you can see that this sanctification is the the same that we undergo on earth, in fact it is the final step of it, and it is accomplished completely through Christ's Holy Sacrifice at Calvary.

God Bless,

Neal

blessed2 · Nov 4, 2003

You win some, you lose some. *shrug* I really shouldn't point out the hypocrisy in your comments, you know with you questioning my faith by putting Christian in quotation marks but... oh, guess I did point it out, didn't I?

NYJ,
I owe you a public apology.
I understand that I may have come off as Anti-Catholic but I assure you that I am not.
It is difficult to face that what you have been taught your whole life may be in question but I truely want to understand that catholic point of view.
I realize that I must have offended you or hurt your feelings in some way but I promise that that was not my goal.
I apologize and ask for your forgiveness.
I apologize that I made you feel like I was bashing your belief's or questioning your faith.
I wouldn't intentionaly do that.
I truely love you in the Lord and the issue of purgartory could never sever that love and respect.
I read your prayer request for a priest and realized your true loving and generous heart and I was ashamed that I had judged you so harshly when I had no right to do so.
As per purgatory, Neal has explained it in a way that I can understand completely. Thank you Neal for your kindness and patience with me. I actually came very near to death and experienced something like the way you explained purgatory....it lead to my salvation.
BAChristian, you are right and I ask your forgiveness as well.
Please except my apology and know that i offer it with my whole heart and thank you all for your christian correction.
Laura

BAChristian · Nov 4, 2003

No worries sister...see my PM...

isshinwhat · Nov 5, 2003

I am glad I could help.

God Bless,

Neal

blessed2 · Nov 14, 2003

Neal,
Please see this thread.
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1263581#post1263581
A family member had the same sort of childhood as I did and although I knew she knew of the Lord she really never embraced a relationship with Him like I did. I, with His help survived and fared pretty well but she didn't. We recieved word Tuesday that she died from an overdose of pain pills. We don't know yet if it was intentional or not. Will there be grace and mercy for her? I pray that there is. Can she find it in purgatory? Will the Lord accept my prayers for her?
Her whole life was so sad and tragic. I hope there is a place for her to find the healing and love she never found here on earth.

Benedicta00 · Nov 14, 2003

blessed2 said:
Neal,
Please see this thread.
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1263581#post1263581
A family member had the same sort of childhood as I did and although I knew she knew of the Lord she really never embraced a relationship with Him like I did. I, with His help survived and fared pretty well but she didn't. We recieved word Tuesday that she died from an overdose of pain pills. We don't know yet if it was intentional or not. Will there be grace and mercy for her? I pray that there is. Can she find it in purgatory? Will the Lord accept my prayers for her?
Her whole life was so sad and tragic. I hope there is a place for her to find the healing and love she never found here on earth.

We always entrust the souls of our loved ones to the mercy of God.

The Divine Mercy private revelation and devotion that was given to St. Faustina tells us that Gods mercy is greater than his justice and it far out weighs his justice.

In the dairy of St. Faustina she writes that our Lord had revealed to her that God will give a soul a last opportunity to accept his mercy apon their death and if they have even the slightest bit of repentance, the slightest bit of love for God and faith in his mercy, the Lord will save them but they will spend time in purgatory for sanctification and purification.

We believe our prayers for loved ones can draw down mercy from heaven on these souls. The chaplet of divine mercy was given to us by Jesus to be prayed in reparation of unrepentant sinners and Jesus said that anyone who prays this chaplet on the death bed of someone who is dying that he will come and stand between them and judgement, so we always have hope and we never presume that Gods mercy has limits.

This is a devotion in the Church and not a dogma of faith, one is not obligated to believe in the Divine Mercy revelation but the Holy Father, JP2 has canonized St. Faustina declaring her a saint of the Church and he has established the first Sunday after Easter as the feast of Divine Mercy like our Lord request he wanted in his revelation to St. Faustina. This devotion does have the approval of the Church but its contents are not dogmatic but neither do they contradict our deposit of faith either.

Here is some more info on the Divine Mercy devotion. http://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/mercy/index.htm

thereselittleflower · Nov 14, 2003

blessed2 said:
Neal,
Please see this thread.
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1263581#post1263581
A family member had the same sort of childhood as I did and although I knew she knew of the Lord she really never embraced a relationship with Him like I did. I, with His help survived and fared pretty well but she didn't. We recieved word Tuesday that she died from an overdose of pain pills. We don't know yet if it was intentional or not. Will there be grace and mercy for her? I pray that there is. Can she find it in purgatory? Will the Lord accept my prayers for her?
Her whole life was so sad and tragic. I hope there is a place for her to find the healing and love she never found here on earth.

blessed2

What you can be sure of is God is merciful . . and you can trust Him implicitly in and for all situations . .

You do not know what happened at the moment of her death . . it is the view of many, including the priest at our parish, that our Lord gives each person one last opportunity to receive or reject Him at the moment of their death.

Only God knows her heart. The Eastern Orthodox have a little different view of the state of those after they die, and they believe that the final state of one's soul can be affected up until the final judgement by the prayers of those living. Do not give up hope and trust God. If it were me, and I felt I should pray for her, I would.

(((hugs)))

Peace in Him!

MariaRegina · Nov 14, 2003

thereselittleflower said:
blessed2

What you can be sure of is God is merciful . . and you can trust Him implicitly in and for all situations . .

You do not know what happened at the moment of her death . . it is the view of many, including the priest at our parish, that our Lord gives each person one last opportunity to receive or reject Him at the moment of their death.

Only God knows her heart. The Eastern Orthodox have a little different view of the state of those after they die, and they believe that the final state of one's soul can be affected up until the final judgement by the prayers of those living. Do not give up hope and trust God. If it were me, and I felt I should pray for her, I would.

(((hugs)))

Peace in Him!

Dear Thereselittleflower and blessed2:

Have you heard the story of St. Xenia of St. Petersburg? She was married to a military officer who had history of alcoholism. He died in an alcoholic brawl. She was so concerned for his salvation that she undertook a severe fast for his soul. She fasted I think for 30 years, wearing his old uniforms and sleeping at his tomb. She was considered a "fool for Christ" - despised by some and considered a saint by others. After 30 years, she had a vision in which she saw her husband's soul leave the upper part of hell (purgatory?) and ascend to heaven. God had answered her prayers and her husband was safe in heaven.

The Orthodox Church doesn't have the dogma of Purgatory, but they do believe in prayers for the departed that they may be admitted into paradise where there is no sighing, no pain, but life everlasting.

Hope this helps.

thereselittleflower · Nov 14, 2003

Chanter

That is a wonderful story! What true love and devotion to another.

I know that Eastern Orthodox do not believe in "Purgatory' per se, but I remember the "Toll Houses" (and I think there is another name for them) where people can be detained and suffer for unforgiven sins . .the concept, though not identical is similar to my way of thinking. .

Thank you for sharing that story!

Peace in Him!

MariaRegina · Nov 14, 2003

thereselittleflower said:
Chanter

That is a wonderful story! What true love and devotion to another.

I know that Eastern Orthodox do not believe in "Purgatory' per se, but I remember the "Toll Houses" (and I think there is another name for them) where people can be detained and suffer for unforgiven sins . .the concept, though not identical is similar to my way of thinking. .

Thank you for sharing that story!

Peace in Him!

Dear ThereseLittleFlower:

Please don't bring up the issue of Toll Houses as it is not a dogma of the Orthodox Church, never has been, and is hotly contested by many clerics as "New Age". Every time we have debated Toll Houses, the thread has been shut down by moderators. So, please, everybody, let this sleeping dog lie.

Personally, I can believe in Purgatory, which I do, as long as I don't preach it as a dogma of the Orthodox Faith. The Orthodox Church prefers to leave the afterlife as a mystery. Our purpose on this life is to repent and to put on Christ, so that all may see Christ in us and be saved.

O Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on us and save us. Amen.

Lovingly yours in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

tionfyre · Nov 15, 2003

This thread was really an eye opener. Especially the part with the translated story of Marie-Anne Lindmayr, thank you for it all.

Here are some things I've heard about purgatory:

Those children who've been blessed enough to experience the presence of Mary our Blessed Mother have been told that Purgatory is no better than hell.

There are interpretations that the fire is a cleansing fire but the pain comes from the desire to be with God, since the souls are so close, yet theyre still detained from meeting him. Thats the torture.

I don't think thats sadism. Its like a last chance/final waiting room after going through all the pains and conflicts of life... You'll have to experience the pains one last time, so you can be REALLY squeaky clean. I mean 'stepping up' to the altar, or truley reprenting one on one with Jesus or God for being sorry for you sins cant absolve you from the ones you're not sorry for... since there are times you've forgotten them or commited them unintentionally. The same goes with confession, nobodys perfect and they don't remember every offense theyve commited. Purgatory is there for that reason.
- enough, this threads gone on for a long time and I'm just sorta repeating whats been said through out this whole thing....

Thank you all, I have really been moved by all the postings here pertaining to Purgatory.

And "Judge not lest ye be judged", what a wonderful saying geocajun recited to me. Being Catholic is very stressing, theres no doubt about that. But the more struggle the more grace we gain in the eyes of God.

And I say this with all my heart (No, Im really friggin serious) : I love you all, members of OBOB, OAW, and those others willing to come here and aide us in our getting closer to God. I've learned so much in the last 2-3 days then ever in my life.

tionfyre · Nov 15, 2003

Last thing for now... : I've been discussing this with my mother and she told me a story about something that happened in her parish a long time ago (I think I was around 2 years old):

One of the mother's at the parish had her son die in a car accident. He was alone during said accident.
She naturally went into shock and prayed for him and his state in Purgatory for a long time, she didn't eat well for the few months she prayed.
Her one selfish request was,"Please, let me see my son again"

On one of her days of prayer, her son appeared before her with a stranger at his side.
The mom, needless to say, freaked out.
They talked and the son said thanks for praying for his soul and that he was moving on and the man next to him was someone nearby during the time the mom was praying for him.
Apperantly the prayer for the son's soul had overflowed and went on to the man. He then(the 'stranger') came along to say thank you before both of them moved on. And they disappeared.

The Mom just went into another state of semi shock and then suddenly snapped back into reality.
She then started praying to see her son one more time (...) and the son comes back and says,"Why wont you let me go?! I'm going to be okay."
and disappears once more.

Benedicta00 · Nov 15, 2003

Its like a last chance/final waiting room

Expressly we say this but no one really knows what purgatory is like, we believe it may be like a purifying fire but we do not know, we do not call it a place either for we do not know if it is a state or a place and it is not a second chance, unrepentant sinners do not go to purgatory.

Cat59 · Nov 15, 2003

blessed2 said:
Neal,
Please see this thread.
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1263581#post1263581
A family member had the same sort of childhood as I did and although I knew she knew of the Lord she really never embraced a relationship with Him like I did. I, with His help survived and fared pretty well but she didn't. We recieved word Tuesday that she died from an overdose of pain pills. We don't know yet if it was intentional or not. Will there be grace and mercy for her? I pray that there is. Can she find it in purgatory? Will the Lord accept my prayers for her?
Her whole life was so sad and tragic. I hope there is a place for her to find the healing and love she never found here on earth.

Even if it was intentional, no one knows what happens in the last minutes or even seconds of someones life. God alone is there to decide where there will be grace and mercy and I believe he is a just and merciful God, who listens to the prayers of his children. The Lord will accept all prayers for her and I will add mine to yours.
Cat

MariaRegina · Nov 15, 2003

Shelb5 said:
Expressly we say this but no one really knows what purgatory is like, we believe it may be like a purifying fire but we do not know, we do not call it a place either for we do not know if it is a state or a place and it is not a second chance, unrepentant sinners do not go to purgatory.

Dear Michelle:

I agree totally and this is also what the Orthodox Church teaches, except that we don't even call it purgatory -- but the afterlife.

Our God is a purifying fire. This is what theosis is. Everytime we receive Holy Communion if we are properly prepared, we are purified. Holy Communion was prefigured and symbolized as the burning coal which was placed on Isaiah's lips by the angel. Hopefully we will be repentant and purified so that when we die we can enter Paradise without need of any further purification.

Unfortunately, most of us procrastinate and then face an uncertain future. Why wait? Christ said that he would vomit the lukewarm out of his mouth. The moment of repentance is now. Repent while you have breath. This was the message of St. John the Baptist. Repentance has been and continues to be the consistent message of the Holy Orthodox Church.

Those who are truly repentant shouldn't argue in IDD but should pray for those who are in error. By posting positive and enlightening message we will enlighten the world.

A Catholic priest told this story about a young Cuban who was forced into military service. He had been raised in a Catholic home but had rejected the faith. As he was doing guard duty, he saw a light in the distance. He told another soldier to watch as he investigated this strange light. The light lead him to a small country church. Inside the church he saw a small red sanctuary light. Then he noticed the tabernacle -- it was brilliant. He fell to his knees and seemed to spend hours. He found Christ again. When he returned to his guard duty he thought he might be in trouble for being AWOL, but he had only been gone a few moments. Later on, he met a girl who helped him to return to the Church.

God worked this miracle because his mother prayed for him. She didn't argue. She just loved him and prayed for him.

St. Seraphim converted thousands around him by his prayers.

Hope this helps.

Lovingly in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

Silvio Dante · Nov 15, 2003

Limbo was convenniantly erased from the books a while ago. Give it another decade and Purgatory will go the same route.

Its just another scare tactic....

MariaRegina · Nov 15, 2003

Silvio Dante said:
Limbo was convenniantly erased from the books a while ago. Give it another decade and Purgatory will go the same route.

Its just another scare tactic....

Dear Silvio:

Perhaps the word "Purgatory" will disappear - but the concept won't. We all need purification either in this life or in the next.

If, however, a person is lukewarm and indifferent, then there is no guarantee that he/she can enter heaven. Indifference is the unforgiveable sin against the Holy Spirit.

Do you really believe in the existence of Heaven and Hell? Do you think this whole thing was made up to keep us in our place. God wouldn't deceive us. Our God isn't capricious as Islam believes. He loves us so much that He died on the Cross for us to set an example of how much we should love one another - even risking our lives. St. Maxillian Kolbe offered his life for a young Jewish married man. This is what we are called to do. Why would St. Maxillian offer his life if he didn't believe in Heaven? St. Maxilliam Kolbe was probably one of the few saints who went straight to heaven because he knew the meaning of charity.

May God grant us all an increase in faith, hope and charity.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son and Word of the Living God, have mercy on us and save us.

Lovingly in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

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