Purgatory is Jewish and makes sense

[Athanasias]

Most people think Catholics made up this concept of purgatory (or a purging purifying fire that refines the soul and prepares one for the glory of heaven) and prayers for the dead in purgatory. The truth is St. Paul talked about this purgatorial fire in 1 Cor 3:10-15, Church fathers and great saints like St. Augustine also talked about this , and Jewish sources were the first to see this in the OT and Jewish tradition as the Jewish encyclopedia shows.

"Rabbi Yose says: (At Judgment) those altogether righteous shall not be put through a purgatory; those altogether wicked shall not be put through a purgatory. Who then will be put through a purgatory? Those betwixt and between... The School of Shammai says:Those betwixt and between shall go down into Gehenna, be purged there, be singed, and come up therefrom; as it is said, “And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will
refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried” (Zechariah 13:9).(Aboth de Rabbi Nathan 41; trans. R. Goldin)"

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12446-purgatory

 

[JIMINZ]

Purgatory is a Catholic thing, and makes no sense whatsoever.

It cheapens the Sacrifice made by Jesus, to say He didn't take all our sin, is heresy.


The verses your referencing 1 Cor 3:10-15 has absolutely nothing at all to do with Purgatory.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Most people think Catholics made up this concept of purgatory (or a purging purifying fire that refines the soul and prepares one for the glory of heaven) and prayers for the dead in purgatory. The truth is St. Paul talked about this purgatorial fire in 1 Cor 3:10-15, Church fathers and great saints like St. Augustine also talked about this , and Jewish sources were the first to see this in the OT and Jewish tradition as the Jewish encyclopedia shows.

"Rabbi Yose says: (At Judgment) those altogether righteous shall not be put through a purgatory; those altogether wicked shall not be put through a purgatory. Who then will be put through a purgatory? Those betwixt and between... The School of Shammai says:Those betwixt and between shall go down into Gehenna, be purged there, be singed, and come up therefrom; as it is said, “And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will
refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried” (Zechariah 13:9).(Aboth de Rabbi Nathan 41; trans. R. Goldin)"

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12446-purgatory

On pad now.
Will reply tomorrow re article...

 

[Athanasias]

Purgatory is a Catholic thing, and makes no sense whatsoever.

It cheapens the Sacrifice made by Jesus, to say He didn't take all our sin, is heresy.


The verses your referencing has absolutely nothing at all to do with Purgatory.

Hmm well the Jews seem to see and understand this doctrine(As the article from the Jewish enclopedia and quotes from rabbi's show) as did the early Church. What do you say to that?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Purgatory is a Catholic thing, and makes no sense whatsoever.

It cheapens the Sacrifice made by Jesus, to say He didn't take all our sin, is heresy.


The verses your referencing 1 Cor 3:10-15 has absolutely nothing at all to do with Purgatory.

Correct re Corinthians!
It really is referring to the work of teachers.
Can't type now...

 

[JIMINZ]

Hmm well the Jews seem to see and understand this doctrine(As the article from the Jewish enclopedia and quotes from rabbi's show) as did the early Church. What do you say to that?

.
I say that those Rabbi's are just as deluded as those who Crucified Jesus.

And that they cannot Interpret the New Testament Scriptures, any better than you can.

Don't try to drag the early Church into it, if your just going to misinterpret more Scripture.

 

[Albion]

Most people think Catholics made up this concept of purgatory (or a purging purifying fire that refines the soul and prepares one for the glory of heaven) and prayers for the dead in purgatory.

It did.

The truth is St. Paul talked about this purgatorial fire in 1 Cor 3:10-15, Church fathers and great saints like St. Augustine also talked about this , and Jewish sources were the first to see this in the OT and Jewish tradition as the Jewish encyclopedia shows.

Wrong. There is some precedent for parts of what the Church decided to make be Purgatory. "Purgatory" has very specific characteristics--exactly as the Church laid them out 1400 years after Christ and taught them to centuries of Catholics.

It is an invalid argument to say that Purgatory was believed by Augustine or any other early church figure because he, or the OT Jews, believed SOMETHING that was SOMEWHAT like SOME of Purgatorys workings.

 

[Athanasias]

Correct re Corinthians!
It really is referring to the work of teachers.
Can't type now...

Sure you are correct. What the early Christians like St. Augustine and others saw in 1 Cor 3:10-15 is speaking of the the same thing that the Jews saw in passages like (Zech 13:9 and Mal 3:2-3) that is the refining purifying fire that the beleivers in God must go through at judgement to get to heaven.

 

[Athanasias]

.
I say that those Rabbi's are just as deluded as those who Crucified Jesus.

And that they cannot Interpret the New Testament Scriptures, any better than you can.

Don't try to drag the early Church into it, if your just going to misinterpret more Scripture.

Well St. Paul was a devout Jew and I think he spoke in Jewish terms in 1 Cor 3:10-15 as he would have had this understanding of purgatory as did the Jews and rabbi's. How is that misinterpreting the scripture?

How do you explain the early Christians and martyrs who prayed for the dead(a Jewish practice which came from the belief of purgatory as the article shows in the Jewish encyclopedia) and talked about this concept of purgatory then? They saw in the scriptures the same connection their Jewish forefathers saw.

 

[JIMINZ]

Sure you are correct. What the early Christians like St. Augustine and others saw in 1 Cor 3:10-15 is speaking of the the same thing that the Jews saw in passages like (Zech 13:9 and Mal 3:2-3) that is the refining purifying fire that the beleivers in God must go through at judgement to get to heaven.

.
Sorry, but you have been lied to, just as I was.

 

[Albion]

That isn't Purgatory, however. It could apply to substantially different places in the afterlife.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Sure you are correct. What the early Christians like St. Augustine and others saw in 1 Cor 3:10-15 is speaking of the the same thing that the Jews saw in passages like (Zech 13:9 and Mal 3:2-3) that is the refining purifying fire that the beleivers in God must go through at judgement to get to heaven.

No A.
Will discuss tomorrow.
Please read it again with no preconceived idea.
1 Corinthians 3:10-15....about.
Not speaking about believers....
But those who teach them by laying a foundation.

 

[Athanasias]

.
Sorry, but you have been lied to, just as I was.

Ok please explain.

 

[Athanasias]

No A.
Will discuss tomorrow.
Please read it again with no preconceived idea.
1 Corinthians 3:10-15....about.
Not speaking about believers....
But those who teach them by laying a foundation.

Would love to talk in depth about this tomorrow. Would it not do us good to read how the Jews and the early Christians also saw these passages and read them in light of that too?

 

[JIMINZ]

Ok please explain.

.
I was raised Catholic, but I'm not one now, I was lied to as you are being lied to now, hook line and sinker.

 

[bcbsr]

Most people think Catholics made up this concept of purgatory (or a purging purifying fire that refines the soul and prepares one for the glory of heaven) and prayers for the dead in purgatory. The truth is St. Paul talked about this purgatorial fire in 1 Cor 3:10-15

Actually if you read 1Cor 3:11-15 you'll find it's not talking about the Catholic concept of purgatorial suffering.

1Cor 3:11-14
11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work.
14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.
15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Under the New Covenant it is promised "their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." Heb 8:12 Our lives are a book. Some pages are good and some are bad. It is not us, but rather the history of our works which is subject to fire. God burns up all the bad pages and rewards us on what is left.

That's quite a different concept than the Catholic idea of purgatorial suffering.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Would love to talk in depth about this tomorrow. Would it not do us good to read how the Jews and the early Christians also saw these passages and read them in light of that too?

The article you posted has flaws.
I can't remember reading about 1 Corinthians from early church father's,,,,,,pre nicea.

If you can, please post any of their comments.
Or I'll check it out tomorrow.

 

[Athanasias]

Actually if you read 1Cor 3:11-15 you'll find it's not talking about the Catholic concept of purgatorial suffering.

1Cor 3:11-14
11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work.
14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.
15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Under the New Covenant it is promised "their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." Heb 8:12 Our lives are a book. Some pages are good and some are bad. It is not us, but rather the history of our works which is subject to fire. God burns up all the bad pages and rewards us on what is left.

That's quite a different concept than the Catholic idea of purgatorial suffering.

Well the early Church and Jews saw it as the same concept. It is true his veniel sins or works are burned away at judgment but notice He himself will go through fire not just his work. He himself will suffer loss. That is the perfect understanding of purgatory or final purification and is consistent with the Jewish one.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Actually if you read 1Cor 3:11-15 you'll find it's not talking about the Catholic concept of purgatorial suffering.

1Cor 3:11-14
11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work.
14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.
15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Under the New Covenant it is promised "their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." Heb 8:12 Our lives are a book. Some pages are good and some are bad. It is not us, but rather the history of our works which is subject to fire. God burns up all the bad pages and rewards us on what is left.

That's quite a different concept than the Catholic idea of purgatorial suffering.

The above refers to the foundation Paul has laid, which is Jesus.

The works are those of ministers, teachers, pastors, etc.
NOT believers.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

argument from authority fallacy.

Augustine and the jews are not omniscient.