Purgatory/Gehenna

tz620q said:

All I can see is a lack of any true explanation for how a totally depraved sinner is suddenly a spotless dweller in Heaven.

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This became a sticking point for me after a while back in my evangelical days. The Church Fathers make reference to the functions and utilities of Purgatory quite clearly. And indeed it is the logical outcome of Our Lord's sacrifice. Sooner or later, this mortal must put on immortality. Purgatory (or some similar modality) is the transition from sinfulness to redeemed sinlessness. I can't knock the logic of it. Others obviously can, either because they don't understand what Purgatory is supposed to be or because for whatever reason they refuse to believe in it despite the sound logic underpinning it.

thecolorsblend said:

This became a sticking point for me after a while back in my evangelical days. The Church Fathers make reference to the functions and utilities of Purgatory quite clearly. And indeed it is the logical outcome of Our Lord's sacrifice. Sooner or later, this mortal must put on immortality. Purgatory (or some similar modality) is the transition from sinfulness to redeemed sinlessness. I can't knock the logic of it. Others obviously can, either because they don't understand what Purgatory is supposed to be or because for whatever reason they refuse to believe in it despite the sound logic underpinning it.

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Interesting.

I Corinthians 15:50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

"A moment, in the twinkling of an eye" assuredly does not refer to Purgatory.

bbbbbbb said:

Interesting.

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I thought so too. And I'm glad you agree with me.

thecolorsblend said:

I thought.

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I am pleased to know that you have decided to think.

TuxAme said:

Purgatory is where most of us who are destined for heaven, will probably end up before we get there. We still have to be purged of our sin (nothing unclean will enter the Kingdom of Heaven), and we must endure the temporal punishments attached to the sins we've committed.

For a crude example, I might compare it to a chemical shower. It hurts a lot, but you wouldn't have to be taking it if you hadn't been exposed to chemicals, and it's for your own good that you take the shower.

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How do you know it hurts a lot?
This is not taught.
Basically it's separation from God.
No one knows what purgatory is like.

TuxAme said:

Purgatory is where most of us who are destined for heaven, will probably end up before we get there. We still have to be purged of our sin (nothing unclean will enter the Kingdom of Heaven), and we must endure the temporal punishments attached to the sins we've committed.

For a crude example, I might compare it to a chemical shower. It hurts a lot, but you wouldn't have to be taking it if you hadn't been exposed to chemicals, and it's for your own good that you take the shower.

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How do you know it hurts a lot?
This is not taught.
Basically it's separation from God.
No one knows what purgatory is like.

TuxAme said:

Purgatory is where most of us who are destined for heaven, will probably end up before we get there. We still have to be purged of our sin (nothing unclean will enter the Kingdom of Heaven), and we must endure the temporal punishments attached to the sins we've committed.

For a crude example, I might compare it to a chemical shower. It hurts a lot, but you wouldn't have to be taking it if you hadn't been exposed to chemicals, and it's for your own good that you take the shower.

Click to expand...

How do you know it hurts a lot?
This is not taught.
Basically it's separation from God.
No one knows what purgatory is like.

TuxAme said:

Purgatory is where most of us who are destined for heaven, will probably end up before we get there. We still have to be purged of our sin (nothing unclean will enter the Kingdom of Heaven), and we must endure the temporal punishments attached to the sins we've committed.

For a crude example, I might compare it to a chemical shower. It hurts a lot, but you wouldn't have to be taking it if you hadn't been exposed to chemicals, and it's for your own good that you take the shower.

Click to expand...

How do you know it hurts a lot?
This is not taught.
Basically it's separation from God.
No one knows what purgatory is like.

TuxAme said:

Purgatory is where most of us who are destined for heaven, will probably end up before we get there. We still have to be purged of our sin (nothing unclean will enter the Kingdom of Heaven), and we must endure the temporal punishments attached to the sins we've committed.

For a crude example, I might compare it to a chemical shower. It hurts a lot, but you wouldn't have to be taking it if you hadn't been exposed to chemicals, and it's for your own good that you take the shower.

Click to expand...

How do you know it hurts a lot?
This is not taught.
Basically it's separation from God.
No one knows what purgatory is like.

GodsGrace101 said:

How do you know it hurts a lot?
This is not taught.
Basically it's separation from God.
No one knows what purgatory is like.

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It's interesting that for the believer Hebrews 1 says of the Lord Jesus 'when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high' (Hebrews 1.3).

The Bible Blueprint for Purgatory | Catholic Answers

I posted the above in that other Purgatory thread. But the long and short of it is it's an episode of Catholic Answers, a radio show. Karlo Broussard, the guest, is a Catholic apologist and explains relevant passages of scripture in continuity with Church teachings. He also fields some questions from non-Catholics. Overall, it's a pretty decent episode.

Tom Farebrother said:

Hello,

Just requesting explanations of the Catholic teaching on purgatory and Jewish views on what Gehenna means/represents. I know this is a controversial topic so what I’m hoping for are explanations of the teaching rather than any debate of opinions on its validity.

Much appreciated, in advance,

Tom

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Tom.....Purgatory is a "man made" teaching by the Roman Catholic Church which formulated the doctrine of Purgatory by an article of faith at the Council of Florence in 1439, and at the council of Trent.

No one can purge their own sin in the mythical state of Purgatory, all those who sin and reject Christ as their redeemer will be judged of God "in the Last day!" Every sin, every idle word, every evil thought will be judged before God in that day. And that is precisely why Christ had to pay for "all" of our sins, and why this doctrine is a house built upon a foundation of sand. All sin, by the law of God, must be judged of God, or purged by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. And if Christ is not man's Saviour, then man will be cast into the lake of fire to suffer the wrath of God for them. And God has been abundantly clear about this.

Lets be clear on this. The Roman Catholic sacrament of penance, along with her related doctrines on satisfactions, indulgences, purgatory, and the supererogatory merits of the saints (which would include Mary's prayers and intercession), are nothing less than a blatant denial of the sufficiency of the merit of Christ!

True Christianity believes the work of Christ was totally sufficient to cleanse us from all sin. The atonement totally expiates the sin of the believer, totally discharges our indebtedness to God's wrath in respect to judgment for our demerits. It thus fully satisfies the demands of God's punitive justice. We are justified and saved from any judgment of sin by His blood, not Purgatory.
The Doctrine of Purgatory


Gahanna was the place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14).
For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell."

thecolorsblend said:

This became a sticking point for me after a while back in my evangelical days. The Church Fathers make reference to the functions and utilities of Purgatory quite clearly. And indeed it is the logical outcome of Our Lord's sacrifice. Sooner or later, this mortal must put on immortality. Purgatory (or some similar modality) is the transition from sinfulness to redeemed sinlessness. I can't knock the logic of it. Others obviously can, either because they don't understand what Purgatory is supposed to be or because for whatever reason they refuse to believe in it despite the sound logic underpinning it.

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It is not a matter of understanding or not understanding Purgatory.

The fact is that Purgatory IS NOT A BIBLE teaching. NO WHERE in the Bible is there a mention of a process or a place where we go to be cleansed and made perfect so that we can go to heaven.

Certainly using The Bible doctrine of the Rapture to say that IT is purgatory is beyond the pail of anyone's logical and Biblical understanding.

Major1 said:

It is not a matter of understanding or not understanding Purgatory.

The fact is that Purgatory IS NOT A BIBLE teaching. NO WHERE in the Bible is there a mention of a process or a place where we go to be cleansed and made perfect so that we can go to heaven.

Certainly using The Bible doctrine of the Rapture to say that IT is purgatory is beyond the pail of anyone's logical and Biblical understanding.

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I'm not really sure what "the rapture" has to do with anything.

Tom Farebrother said:

Hello,

Just requesting explanations of the Catholic teaching on purgatory and Jewish views on what Gehenna means/represents. I know this is a controversial topic so what I’m hoping for are explanations of the teaching rather than any debate of opinions on its validity.

Much appreciated, in advance,

Tom

Click to expand...

What the Catechism of the Catholic Church says on "Purgatory:"

1031. "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. [Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. [Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:32-36.]"

1472. "To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the 'eternal punishment' of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the 'temporal punishment' of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. [Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.]"

Gehenna is hell. In the Bible Jesus makes 11 references to Gehenna and in every case he is speaking of Hell.

• Matthew 5:22: "....whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into Gehenna."
• Matthew 5:29: "....it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into Gehenna."
• Matthew 5:30: "....better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into Gehenna."
• Matthew 10:28: "....rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul [Greek: ψυχή] and body in Gehenna."
• Matthew 18:9: "It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than with two eyes to be thrown into the Gehenna...."
• Matthew 23:15: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you... make one proselyte...twice as much a child of Gehenna as yourselves."
• Matthew 23:33, to the Pharisees: "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you to escape the sentence of Gehenna?"
• Mark 9:43: "It is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into Gehenna into the unquenchable fire."
• Mark 9:45: "It is better for you to enter life lame, than having your two feet, to be cast into Gehenna."
• Mark 9:47: "It is better for you to enter the Kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into Gehenna."
• Luke 12:5: "....fear the One who, after He has killed has authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you, fear Him."

thecolorsblend said:

I'm not really sure what "the rapture" has to do with anything.

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Because YOU used the Scriptures that define and explain the Rapture in an effort to make those same Scriptures fit YOUR Purgatory belief.

Major1 said:

Because YOU used the Scriptures that define and explain the Rapture in an effort to make those same Scriptures fit YOUR Purgatory belief.

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Right but what has that got to do with anything though?