Purgatory and Sin Offerings?

Chris V++ said:

Are the sins cataloged above not unpardonable? It seems to me Major is saying the only unpardonable sin is 'unbelief' not that believers have free license to do adultery, fornication, etc.... Do people who believe in purgatory feel that people who don't believe in purgatory are trying to rationalize sin or skirt due punishment?

And, if a believer does slip up and commits adultery, fornication, etc (Mortal Sins) and doesn't have those sins reconciled specifically thru confession/absolution/penance (due to being a separated brethren or a wayward Catholic) will that believer have any hope for salvation? Is it a logical conclusion for a Catholic to make that one must participate in the Catholic confession to have any chance of salvation, since all commit mortal sins.

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Correct!

According to the RCC, All salvation comes through the Catholic Church, and outside of Her there is no salvation.

NO ONE especially is saying that anyone has a license to sin. That argument is as old as Noah. Not only is it old it is completely in error and I do not know of anyone who has ever said that except those who want to try and prove their false teaching.

Chris V++ said:

Are the sins cataloged above not unpardonable?

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They are pardonable.

It seems to me Major is saying the only unpardonable sin is 'unbelief' not that believers have free license to do adultery, fornication, etc....

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Unbelief is also pardonable.

Do people who believe in purgatory feel that people who don't believe in purgatory are trying to rationalize sin or skirt due punishment?

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You would have to ask them. As for me, I did not say that. Nor do I believe it.

And, if a believer does slip up and commits adultery, fornication, etc (Mortal Sins) and doesn't have those sins reconciled specifically thru confession/absolution/penance (due to being a separated brethren or a wayward Catholic) will that believer have any hope for salvation?

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Adultery and fornication are grave matter. They may or may not be mortal sins. It depends on the circumstances. I personally believe that there is a hope for salvation for all men, be they Christian or non-Christian. But that is just my opinion.

Is it a logical conclusion for a Catholic to make that one must participate in the Catholic confession to have any chance of salvation, since all commit mortal sins.

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Not all commit grave matter. And not all commit mortal sins. Regardless, confession is not the only way that sins can be forgiven. A perfect act of contrition also forgives sins.

Major1 said:

Correct!

According to the RCC, All salvation comes through the Catholic Church, and outside of Her there is no salvation.

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True, but even you can be saved according to what the Catholic Church teaches. Most especially if you are baptized.

NO ONE especially is saying that anyone has a license to sin. That argument is as old as Noah. Not only is it old it is completely in error and I do not know of anyone who has ever said that except those who want to try and prove their false teaching.

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I do not think that Protestants teach that there is a license to sin, but I think that for many people that has been the practical effect of a teaching that says that there is no significant penalty for sin. If police stop handing out speeding tickets more people are going to speed.

I would have to find it, but I believe that there are some writings from Martin Luther himself who lamented that that was the outcome of the Reformation.

Afra said:

They are pardonable.

Unbelief is also pardonable.

You would have to ask them. As for me, I did not say that. Nor do I believe it.

Adultery and fornication are grave matter. They may or may not be mortal sins. It depends on the circumstances. I personally believe that there is a hope for salvation for all men, be they Christian or non-Christian. But that is just my opinion.

Not all commit grave matter. And not all commit mortal sins. Regardless, confession is not the only way that sins can be forgiven. A perfect act of contrition also forgives sins.

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You said............
"A perfect act of contrition also forgives sins."

Where in the Scriptures did you read that????????

Major1 said:

According to the RCC, All salvation comes through the Catholic Church, and outside of Her there is no salvation.

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That's not very accurate. A better way to phrase it would be that we believe everybody in Heaven is Catholic; they may or may not have been Catholic in life but they are most assuredly Catholic in Heaven.

Catechism of the Catholic Church said:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

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thecolorsblend said:

That's not very accurate. A better way to phrase it would be that we believe everybody in Heaven is Catholic; they may or may not have been Catholic in life but they are most assuredly Catholic in Heaven.

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No, I think that what @Major1 wrote is accurate. The portion of the Catechism that you cited states as much: “all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body”.

Afra said:

No, I think that what @Major1 wrote is accurate. The portion of the Catechism that you cited states as much: “all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body”.

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The Catechism passage I cited speaks a bit more comprehensively than just the tiny fragment you quoted. It outlines conditions pertinent to Protestants and to those who are not even Christians.

So yes, Major1 was inaccurate.

thecolorsblend said:

The Catechism passage I cited speaks a bit more comprehensively than just the tiny fragment you quoted. It outlines conditions pertinent to Protestants and to those who are not even Christians.

So yes, Major1 was inaccurate.

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Exactly what part of "All salvation comes through the Catholic Church, and outside of Her there is no salvation" is inaccurate?

I think the statement itself is accurate, although it is capable of being misconstrued to mean something that it does not.

Afra said:

Exactly what part of "All salvation comes through the Catholic Church, and outside of Her there is no salvation" is inaccurate?

I think the statement itself is accurate, although it is capable of being misconstrued to mean something that it does not.

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Tell you what, chief. How about you read the entire passage I helpfully provided rather than fixating on the fifteen words you think support your limited understanding? Then you can get back to me about this, 'kay?

thecolorsblend said:

Tell you what, chief. How about you read the entire passage I helpfully provided rather than fixating on the fifteen words you think support your limited understanding? Then you can get back to me about this, 'kay?

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There is no need to speak to someone else in a condescending manner. And there is no reason for you to accuse me of having a limited understanding, because I have not denied anything that is written in the portion of the Catechism that you cited.

I have read the entire passage of the Catechism, and I agree with it. But that does not make the original statement inaccurate or incorrect. There is nothing in the Catechism that contradicts or is inconsistent with the statement. In fact, the statement almost matches verbatim words from the Catechism.

Now, if we can get back to the substantive issue at hand instead of speaking to people in a condescending manner and accusing them of having limited understandings, exactly what part of "All salvation comes through the Catholic Church, and outside of Her there is no salvation" is inaccurate?

Afra said:

There is no need to speak to someone else in a condescending manner. And there is no reason for you to accuse me of having a limited understanding, because I have not denied anything that is written in the portion of the Catechism that you cited.

I have read the entire passage of the Catechism, and I agree with it. But that does not make the original statement inaccurate or incorrect. There is nothing in the Catechism that contradicts or is inconsistent with the statement. In fact, the statement almost matches verbatim words from the Catechism.

Now, if we can get back to the substantive issue at hand instead of speaking to people in a condescending manner and accusing them of having limited understandings, exactly what part of "All salvation comes through the Catholic Church, and outside of Her there is no salvation" is inaccurate?

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Whatever bro, believe what you want. I'm not your priest. All I've asked is that you not spread half-truths. I can explain the problem to you but clearly I can't understand it for you.

thecolorsblend said:

Whatever bro, believe what you want. I'm not your priest. All I've asked is that you not spread half-truths. I can explain the problem to you but clearly I can't understand it for you.

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No, I have not spread any half-truths. I have asked you specifically to explain how the statement is in error, and you have refused on two separate occasions to offer a substantive explanation. The first time you responded with condescension, and the second time you responded with "whatever bro". You have not explained anything clearly, and you remain in apparent error, regardless of whether you are or are not my priest.

thecolorsblend said:

That's not very accurate. A better way to phrase it would be that we believe everybody in Heaven is Catholic; they may or may not have been Catholic in life but they are most assuredly Catholic in Heaven.

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Some say TomAto and some say Tomato, but they are in fact the same thing.
The statement was completely accurate. You do not like it but that does not make in inaccurate.

Please explain if the Catholic faith supports the belief that only Catholics go to heaven.



That particular phrasing can be a little misleading — the more accurate question would be, “Do Catholics believe there is no Salvation outside the Catholic Church?”

Here’s what the Church says.

• “Re-formulated positively, [the statement “there is no Salvation outside the Church”] means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body. Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, [Vatican II] teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church.”
• (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 846 – read more)

Major1 said:

Please explain if the Catholic faith supports the belief that only Catholics go to heaven

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The statements are true, but they do not mean that only visible, confirmed, members of the Catholic Church may be saved.

This should help you understand why:
Lumen gentium

15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

Major1 said:

Some say TomAto and some say Tomato, but they are in fact the same thing.
The statement was completely accurate. You do not like it but that does not make in inaccurate.

Please explain if the Catholic faith supports the belief that only Catholics go to heaven.



That particular phrasing can be a little misleading — the more accurate question would be, “Do Catholics believe there is no Salvation outside the Catholic Church?”

Here’s what the Church says.

• “Re-formulated positively, [the statement “there is no Salvation outside the Church”] means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body. Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, [Vatican II] teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church.”
• (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 846 – read more)

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In a world where Protestantism didn't exist, intepreting the statement that there is no salvation outside the Church as meaning that someone must be a member of the Catholic Church as a pre-requisite for salvation was probably accurate.

However, we don't live in a world where Protestantism doesn't exist. As you've probably noticed, Protestantism exists in the world.

Having said all of that though, it's undeniable that Protestants get rustled whenever they hear this doctrine. I've never understood why that idea bothers them, tbh. I've met and know members of the Churches of Christ who believe only members of the Churches of Christ go to Heaven. Their opinion bothers me not one bit. So why do Protestants get upset over this?

thecolorsblend said:

In a world where Protestantism didn't exist, intepreting the statement that there is no salvation outside the Church as meaning that someone must be a member of the Catholic Church as a pre-requisite for salvation was probably accurate.

However, we don't live in a world where Protestantism doesn't exist. As you've probably noticed, Protestantism exists in the world.

Having said all of that though, it's undeniable that Protestants get rustled whenever they hear this doctrine. I've never understood why that idea bothers them, tbh. I've met and know members of the Churches of Christ who believe only members of the Churches of Christ go to Heaven. Their opinion bothers me not one bit. So why do Protestants get upset over this?

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WHY?

It is just as simple as WHY do you pray to a Rosary?
Why do you believe that Mary was Assumed into heaven?
Why do you believe in the Perpetual virginity of Mary?

Because NONE of those, and probably 30 more are NOT in the Bible.........NONE!

The Bible says that ALL who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved.

The Bible does NOT say ONE SINGLE word about church members going to heaven.
The Bible does NOT say that Only Catholics will go to heaven.

In Fact, the word CATHOLIC is not in the Bible at all.

Chris V++ said:

I started researching the doctrine of purgatory. the Wikipedia entry lists verses believed to be in support of purgatory.
"Descriptions and doctrine regarding purgatory developed over the centuries.[5] Those who believe in purgatory interpret Bible passages such as 2 Maccabees 12:41-46 (not accepted as Scripture by Protestants but recognized by Orthodox and Catholics), 2 Timothy 1:18, Matthew 12:32, Luke 16:19-16:26, Luke 23:43, 1 Corinthians 3:11-3:15 and Hebrews 12:29 as support for prayer for the dead, an active interim state for the dead prior to the resurrection, and purifying flames after death.[3]'

The idea of Purgatory seems like a lot to extrapolate from the New Testament verses listed on Wikipedia. Maybe 1 Corinthians perhaps? "14If what has been built on the foundation survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If the work is burned up, the builder will suffer loss; the builder will be saved, but only as through fire." But when read in context it doesn't really fit.


2 Maccabees on the other hand is rather specific:
2 Maccabees 12:41–46:41
41So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; 42and they turned to supplication, praying that the sin that had been committed might be wholly blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened as the result of the sin of those who had fallen. 43He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin-offering. In doing this he acted very well and honourably, taking account of the resurrection. 44For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin. "

Sin- offering???? To me this sounds like the medieval church selling pardons or indulgences but post mortem. Are sin offerings still practiced?

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The catechism specifically states that the doctrine of purgatory was formulated at the councils of Florence in 1439AD and Trent in 1563AD. If you examine those scriptures it’s easy to see they are extremely vague and not at all sufficient for supporting the doctrine of purgatory. Many believe 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 is pretty compelling proof. It certainly seems so until you examine the context of the chapter. First you need to realize that verses 11-15 are a parable. Surely we cannot literally build on the foundation of Jesus Christ with precious stones etc. A parable is used to support a specific topic that is currently being discussed. A person wouldn’t be explaining a specific topic then give a parable about a completely different topic. That wouldnt make any sense and would be extremely confusing to the person your trying to teach. For example if I were teaching someone how to ride a bicycle then suddenly said don’t count your chickens until they hatch that person would look at me like I’m crazy. The parable doesn’t make any sense about how to ride a bicycle. So let’s examine verses 1-10 and see what Paul is discussing when he gave that parable to help the Corinthians better understand what he was teaching. Paul writes that some people were boasting about being followers of Apollos and some were boasting about being a follower of Paul. Paul explains that both he and Apollos were doing the work God had assigned them but they were both working for the same goal. He then goes on to explain that both he and Apollos will be rewarded according to their deeds. Then he begins the parable.

“Anyone who builds on that foundation may use a variety of materials—gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw. But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person’s work has any value. If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward. But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:12-15‬

When you read the parable in the context of how we receive rewards according to our deeds it is pretty easy to see that Paul never mentioned forgiveness of sin, purification, salvation, or anything related to purgatory. Obviously our reward cannot be salvation because we are saved by God’s grace. The definition of grace is a free and unmerited favor of God. The reward is referring to the rewards we receive in heaven according to our deeds.

I really hate to bring this part up but unfortunately I think it is very relevant when examining the doctrine of purgatory. As I stated earlier the catechism specifically states that the doctrine of purgatory was first formulated in 1439AD. Many people don’t realize that this was during probably the darkest time in history for the Roman church. This was during the inquisitions which I would rather not get into but more importantly this was also during the time when the Roman church was selling indulgences. Personally I believe purgatory was another way to solicit more indulgences. The Roman church was telling people that when a person dies all their sins are not paid for by Jesus’ sacrifice and they must pay for them theirselves by suffering in purgatory before they can enter heaven. But if that person’s loved ones pay the church tithes they will pray to Mary and she will have that person removed from purgatory immediately so they don’t have to suffer for their sins. Mary is said to have this power because she asked Jesus to make wine out of water at the wedding at Cana and He did. So....yeah...ok. Anyway another thing to take into consideration is the Orthodox and Oriental Catholic Churches don’t believe in purgatory. So that is strong evidence that purgatory was not taught before 1054AD and definitely not handed down from the apostles.

Major1 said:

WHY?

It is just as simple as WHY do you pray to a Rosary?
Why do you believe that Mary was Assumed into heaven?
Why do you believe in the Perpetual virginity of Mary?

Because NONE of those, and probably 30 more are NOT in the Bible.........NONE!

The Bible says that ALL who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved.

The Bible does NOT say ONE SINGLE word about church members going to heaven.
The Bible does NOT say that Only Catholics will go to heaven.

In Fact, the word CATHOLIC is not in the Bible at all.

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The Church of God adopted the name Catholic Church sometime between 107AD and 180AD. There’s nothing wrong with the original teachings of the Catholic Church. The problems with the teachings begin mostly after 1054AD. There were a few problems before that but they were limited to only the church in Rome and contributed to the schism in 1054AD.

I also should point out that prayers for the dead is not evidence of purgatory because of God’s omniscience and omnipresence. If you pray for someone who has died God already knows your prayer even before creation. He can take that prayer into consideration before that person died.