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That raises the curious dilemma for Catholics. They profess that we non-Catholics are "separated brethren" who have a possibility for salvation, but are silent regarding what, if any, experiences await us in Purgatory. Given the anathemas pronounced at the Council of Trent, it would definitely appear that we need not worry at all about Purgatory.The all availing sacrifice of Christ, and the means of grace He provides in His Sacraments is sufficient. The thief who repented on the cross next to our Lord's, went tp paridixe the same day without a life time of devotion and good works. No one was praying for him except our Lord, no one celebrated masses for him; yet through his new found faith, the brief moments of what life remained with they 11th hour repentance was enough.
I see where the idea of merits come from, but their connection to the purging of one's sins or stains of sins at or following death is a stretch. If I am wrong, I will gladly do my time as God wills, no harm, no foul.
I am glad that you agree that the Catholic Church has wandered on its own way and has evolved its own beliefs quite apart from the rest of Christendom. If you are happy with them, then that is fine with me.I do not agree with the timing that you claim, but I am happy with beliefs that are unique to the Catholic Church.
Jesus said, regarding the teaching of the disciples, "The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me."
Amen, he does do exactly that.
That is not what I agreed, but you may think that if you like.I am glad that you agree that the Catholic Church has wandered on its own way
Well, no, it doesn't follow. Both Eastern and Oriental Orthodox believe prayer for the dead is efficacious and that our works will be tested on the last day, but we've never had any teaching remotely resembling purgatory. That is something that grew solely out of Rome's errors.It follows from the scriptural teaching that prayer for the dead is efficacious and from the teaching that one's works as well as oneself are tested by fire on "that Day".
Of their works, as is implied in the passage I cited. There is also an implication that they themselves are saved as one who has passed through fire.So what is the loss suffered by those in 'purgatory'?
Nevertheless, you do know that the doctrine of Purgatory is unique to your church.That is not what I agreed, but you may think that if you like.
As for me, purgatory is a teaching of Sacred Tradition and is present by "good and necessary consequence" in the sacred Scriptures consisting of the seventy-three books received a canonical by the Catholic Church. It follows from the scriptural teaching that prayer for the dead is efficacious and from the teaching that one's works as well as oneself are tested by fire on "that Day". And as the Catholic Church teaches this doctrine is follows from Christ's words in Luke 10:16 that it is the teaching of Christ himself.
Orthodoxy has its toll houses advocates, are they included in "Both Eastern and Oriental Orthodox or are they to be excluded?Well, no, it doesn't follow. Both Eastern and Oriental Orthodox believe prayer for the dead is efficacious and that our works will be tested on the last day, but we've never had any teaching remotely resembling purgatory.
So what? There is nothing in Toll Houses about our prayers helping them or some treasury of merits being applied to skip them. There is no similarity.Orthodoxy has its toll houses advocates, are they included in "Both Eastern and Oriental Orthodox or are they to be excluded?
But the doctrine of purgatory isn't about works is it. It is about sin that has been repented of but with insufficient reparation. It is about a lack of good works performed in response to the harm caused by your sin is it not?Of their works, as is implied in the passage I cited. There is also an implication that they themselves are saved as one who has passed through fire.
Yes, there is nothing in Catholic Sacred Tradition about toll houses, as far as I am aware. But Purgatory is present in sacred scripture by implication, even if your tradition does not recognise it as being there. It is sufficient for me that the Catholic Church teaches it.So what? There is nothing in Toll Houses about our prayers helping them or some treasury of merits being applied to skip them. There is no similarity.
Sins are works of the flesh so they are works. Saint Paul implies that works that are like hay and wood and stubble are burned away, tested by fire, and lost, which is consistent with the idea of a penance for one's sins that are absolved and that is what Purgatory is chiefly about, the marks left by sins that are forgiven, may be those marks present as character flaws or as debts of service to others, but since I am not trying to pass myself off as a Doctor of the Church I am content to accept what is present in the Catechism of the Catholic Church on purgatory.But the doctrine of purgatory isn't about works is it. It is about sin that has been repented of but with insufficient reparation. It is about a lack of good works performed in response to the harm caused by your sin is it not?
That is your opinion, and perhaps that of your church too, but it is not my opinion nor is it the teaching of the Catholic Church.There is no such thing as a treasury of suffering that Christ and the saints contribute to - that can then be applied to someone in a non-Bible arena such as Purgatory after they die -- at least not according to the Bible
The wicked do not escape the grave by some act of gaining indulgence, nor do they escape hell. No one in hell ever escapes it via some indulgence. And of course as you noted - Purgatory is not even mentioned.
You are still ignoring that 1 Corinthians 3 speaks of the testing of works happening in "that day", which contradicts what your Church teaches about purgatory.Sins are works of the flesh so they are works. Saint Paul implies that works that are like hay and wood and stubble are burned away, tested by fire, and lost, which is consistent with the idea of a penance for one's sins that are absolved and that is what Purgatory is chiefly about, the marks left by sins that are forgiven, may be those marks present as character flaws or as debts of service to others, but since I am not trying to pass myself off as a Doctor of the Church I am content to accept what is present in the Catechism of the Catholic Church on purgatory.
Not really, that Day could be the day of particular judgement when each person faces God's justice, some being condemned to hell, some being received into heaven, and some being purged before reception into God's presence. It could also be the Last Day, the Day of the final judgement, but that is a matter for the Church to decide, not me.You are still ignoring that 1 Corinthians 3 speaks of the testing of works happening in "that day", which contradicts what your Church teaches about purgatory.
I would argue, by interpretation not implication. It all points to the final judgement.. Are we judged twice? No, one final judgement.Yes, there is nothing in Catholic Sacred Tradition about toll houses, as far as I am aware. But Purgatory is present in sacred scripture by implication, even if your tradition does not recognise it as being there. It is sufficient for me that the Catholic Church teaches it.
Really?I would argue, by interpretation not implication. It all points to the final judgement.. Are we judged twice? No, one final judgement.
Who is Haydock?Not really, that Day could be the day of particular judgement when each person faces God's justice, some being condemned to hell, some being received into heaven, and some being purged before reception into God's presence. It could also be the Last Day, the Day of the final judgement, but that is a matter for the Church to decide, not me.
Haydock's notes say:
Now if any man build, &c. This is a hard place, says St. Augustine, lib. de fid. & Oper. chap. xvi. tom. 6. p. 180. The interpreters are divided, as to the explication and application of this metaphorical comparison, contained in these four verses. St. Paul speaks of a building, where it is evident, says St. Augustine, that the foundation is Christ, or the faith of Christ, and his faith working by charity. The difficulties are 1. Who are the builders. 2. What is meant by gold, silver, precious stones, and what by wood, hay, stubble. 3. What is meant by the day of the Lord. 4. What by fire, how every one's work shall be tried, and how some shall be saved by fire. As to the first, by the builders, as St. Paul had before called himself the first architect, who had laid the foundation of the faith of Christ among the Corinthians, interpreters commonly understand those doctors and preachers who there succeeded St. Paul: but as it is also said, that every man's works shall be made manifest, St. Augustine and others understand not the preachers only, but all the faithful. As to the second difficulty, if by the builders we understand the preachers of the gospel, then by gold, silver, &c. is to be understood, good, sound, and profitable doctrine; and by wood, hay, stubble, a mixture of vain knowledge, empty flourishes, unprofitable discourses; but if all the faithful are builders, they whose actions are pure, lay gold upon the foundation; but if their actions are mixed with imperfections, venial failings, and lesser sins, these are represented by wood, hay, stubble, &c. 3. By the day of the Lord, is commonly understood either the day of general judgment, or the particular judgment, when every one is judged at his death, which sentence shall be confirmed again at the last day. 4. As to fire, which is mentioned thrice, if we consider what St. Paul says here of fire, he seems to use it in different significations, as he many times does other words. First, he tells us, (ver. 13.) that the day of the Lord...shall be revealed; or, as it is in the Greek, is revealed in, or by fire; where, by fire, is commonly understood the just and severe judgments of God, represented by the metaphor of fire. Secondly, he tells us in the same verse, that fire shall try every one's work, of what sort it is. This may be again taken for the examining and trying fire of God's judgments: and may be applied to the builders, whether preachers only or all the faithful. Thirdly, he tells us, (ver. 14. and 15.) that some men's works abide the fire of God's judgments, they deserve no punishment, they are like pure gold, which receives no prejudice from the fire: but some men's works burn, the superstructure, which they built upon the faith of Christ, besides gold, silver, precious stones, had also a mixture of wood, hay, stubble, which could not stand the trial of fire, which met with combustible matter, that deserved to be burnt. Every such man shall suffer a loss, when his works are burnt, but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. Here the apostle speaks of fire in a more ample signification: of a fire which shall not only try, and examine, but also burn, and punish the builders, who notwithstanding shall also, after a time, escape from the fire, and be saved by fire, and in the day of the Lord, that is, after life (for the time of this life is the day of men). Divers of the ancient fathers, as well as later interpreters, from these words, prove the Catholic doctrine of a purgatory, that is, that many Christians, who die guilty, not of heinous or mortal sins, but of lesser, and what are called venial sins, or to whom a temporal punishment from the sins they have committed, still remains due, before they can be admitted to a reward in heaven, (into which nothing defiled or unclean can enter) must suffer some punishments for a time, in some place, which is called Purgatory, and is such a manner, as is agreeable to the divine justice, before their reward in heaven. These words of the apostle, the Latin Fathers in the Council of Florence[1] brought against the Greeks to prove purgatory, to which the Greeks (who did not deny a purgatory, or a third place, where souls guilty of lesser sins were to suffer for a time) made answer, that these words of St. Paul were expounded by St. John Chrysostom and some of their Greek Fathers (which is true) of the wicked in hell, who are said to be saved by fire, inasmuch as they always subsist and continue in those flames, and are not destroyed by them: but this interpretation, as the Latin bishops replied, is not agreeable to the style of the holy Scriptures, in which, to be saved, both in the Greek and Latin, is expressed the salvation and happiness of souls in heaven. It may not be amiss to take notice that the Greeks, before they met with the Latins at Ferrara, of Florence, did not deny the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. They admitted a third place, where souls guilty of lesser sins, suffered for a time, till cleansed from such sins: they allowed that the souls there detained from the vision of God, might be assisted by the prayers of the faithful: they called this purgatory a place of darkness, or sorrow, of punishments, and pains, but they did not allow there a true and material fire, which the Council did not judge necessary to decide and define against them, as appears in the definition of the Council. (Conc. Labb tom. xiii. p. 515.) (Witham) --- The fire of which St. Paul here speaks, is the fire of purgatory, according to the Fathers, and all Catholic divines. (Calmet) --- St. Augustine, expounding Psalm xxxvii. ver. 1, gives the proper distinction between this fire of purgatory and that of hell: both are punishments, one temporary, the other eternal; the latter to punish us in God's justice, the former to amend us in his mercy.
Rev. George Leo Haydock (1774-1849). He wrote a commentary, the commentary is here Haydock Commentary Online – Catholic Commentary on the ScripturesWho is Haydock?
You are not picking up what I am laying down. Heaven is a temporary home (read the Revelation of St. John); we all will stand in judgement after we are raised on the last day and our souls reunited with our resurrected bodies. At that time, as I posted earlier in that very concise statement of the Athanasian Creed:Really?
When you die, will you face the final judgement instantly? Or will you have a personal judgement and then at the end of this age face the last judgement?
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