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Purgatory And Prayers For The Dead.

HTacianas

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So who was it that told you the Holy Spirit stopped speaking through people after Malachi died? And Maccabees was in fact included among the Jewish writings by someone else we wouldn't have it today. This is simply another example of a layman claiming to have more authority than the Church.

As far as telling God that sola scriptura is not true, I can prove that it is not by merely pointing out that it isn't in the bible. If we are to use scripture alone in deciding matters I'm sure it would say that somewhere in scripture. It doesn't. In fact it says something altogether different.
 

chevyontheriver

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Maccabees are not in the Bible canon.
Yep, both books of Maccabees are right in there. I can open my Bibles and see those books right in there.
Only the Bible is the living Word of God, saying otherwise is a heresy.
Maybe we agree? But we disagree on ripping books out of the Bible. I think it’s just wrong to do. You apparently defend the practice.
Btw the Bible says that hell is eternal, and sinners will suffer eternally so it is absolutely pointless praying for the dead.
There’s no getting out of hell, so no benefit to pray for someone there. BUT Christians and Jews have always prayed for the dead. Knowing a ticket to hell was one way only, Christians prayed for the final cleansing of the already saved but incompletely sanctified. Catholics would say they are being purged of the imperfections they had when they died. Purged in the fire of the love of Jesus. Other Traditional Christians may not have it as systematically figured out but they nonetheless pray for those who died in Christ. And follow Jewish practice doing the same thing.
 
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chevyontheriver

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We will all have to give account to God for things we do and say. Good luck telling Him sola scriptura is not true.
God knows Sola Scriptura is an invention of Martin Luther, who needed a novel arguing point against his opponents. Of course he wasn’t so fond of the idea that every milkmaid could pontificate new ideas just like he could.

The greatest proof of the falseness of Sola Scriptura is the fruits of it, the thousands of contradictory interpretations that have lead to thousands of schisms since it was invented 500 years ago. If Sola Scriptura were true there would be far far less contradictory interpretations floating about.
 
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chevyontheriver

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How do you know you even have a complete Bible?
 
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ozso

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So what happens to those in Purgatory who don't have people praying for them? It seems unfair that some have people praying for them and others don't.
 
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Valletta

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God does not need a purgatory, something like a purgatory is a man created idea. When a person believes in Jesus they immediately cross over from death to life.
“Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.” Matthew 5:25-26
 
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Valletta

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So what happens to those in Purgatory who don't have people praying for them? It seems unfair that some have people praying for them and others don't.
It may seem unfair that someone who worked part of the day gets the same wage as someone who worked the whole day. God's ways are far above those of man.
 
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ozso

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It may seem unfair that someone who worked part of the day gets the same wage as someone who worked the whole day. God's ways are far above those of man.
But those people get the same reward. Do those who are prayed for and those who aren't get the same reward?
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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So what happens to those in Purgatory who don't have people praying for them? It seems unfair that some have people praying for them and others don't.
I pray for the souls in purgatory, I think nearly all Catholics do.
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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The authors of the Apocrypha acknowledge that they aren’t prophets and don’t speak with divine authority like the Old Testament authors. The author of 1 Maccabees writes:

So there was great distress in Israel, the worst since the time when prophets ceased to appear among them (1 Macc. 9:27).

Prophets only existed in their ancient memories. This text, written around 100 BC, refers back to a time when the prophets were in their midst. The logical conclusion is that no prophet existed at this time who could speak from God. First Maccabees 14:41 also says as much:

The Jews and their priests have resolved that Simon should be their leader and high priest forever until a trustworthy prophet should arise.

Again, none of the Jews knew of a prophet who was speaking from God during the time of these events.

Additionally, these books contain theological and historical errors. For example, the Book of Wisdom indicates that God created the world out of preexisting matter (11:17) which contradicts the rest of Scripture’s teaching that God created the world out of nothing. Moreover, the book of Judith incorrectly states Nebuchadnezzar was king of Assyria, when in fact, he was the king of Babylon (1:5).

It’s hard to imagine how the Spirit could inspire documents containing both theological and historical error. When you couple the errors with the authors’ acknowledgment that no prophets existed during this time, we have good reasons to reject the Apocrypha as sacred Scripture.


The Jews don’t believe the Apocrypha belongs in their Bible, and they never have. Josephus, the greatest Jewish historian of the first century, explained:

It is true, our history has been written since Artaxerxes very particularly, but has not been esteemed of the like authority with the former by our forefathers.1

Josephus’ quote is especially helpful here. He indicates that ever since the reign of Artaxerxes (465-424 BC), the Jewish writings (the Apocrypha) have “not been esteemed of the like authority with the former (the Old Testament) by our forefathers.” In other words, the Jewish consensus was that while these writings might contain some helpful history and content, they don’t belong in the same category as the Old Testament texts.

Rabbinic literature during the first couple of centuries also affirms this distinction. The Babylonian Talmud reports:

After the latter prophets Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi had died, the Holy Spirit departed from Israel.2

Based on this text, the Jews recognized that the Spirit stopped speaking through the prophets after Malachi died. Thus, the Apocryphal documents, which were written after Malachi, are not Spirit-inspired Scripture.

In fact, no early or recent Jewish canon includes the Apocrypha. That the Jews reject these Jewish documents as Scripture is a strong indication that they don’t belong in our Bible.


When reading the New Testament, you will find hundreds of quotations from the Old Testament. According to one count, Jesus and his apostles quote various portions of the Old Testament as Scripture 295 times.Not once, however, do they quote a text from the Apocrypha.

The absence of references to the Apocrypha speaks volumes. After all, if these books were from God, why wouldn’t Jesus or his apostles quote from them? They don’t, because they believed the Old Testament canon was closed, and it didn’t include the Apocrypha.

We see a couple hints of this in the New Testament. Jesus indicates in Luke 24:44 that the Jewish Scripture include, “The Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms.” In other words, Jesus breaks down the Jewish canon into three sections — the law, the prophets, and the writings (the Psalms represented the writings). Notice he doesn’t mention the Apocrypha.

Jesus gives another indication of a closed Jewish canon in Luke 11:51. When talking to the Jewish leaders, Jesus says the Jews will be held accountable for all the martyrs from Abel to Zechariah. At first glance, it might appear that Jesus is making an alphabetical list, but that’s not what he’s doing. Remember, his alphabet was different from ours. Instead, Jesus makes a chronological list. Abel was the first martyr in Genesis (the first book), and Zechariah was the last martyr in Chronicles (the last book in the Jewish Bible). Note, the Jewish Bible contains all the same books as our present Old Testament, but their ordering of the books is different.

Again, the New Testament provides strong evidence that the Apocrypha doesn’t belong in our Bible.


The Roman Catholic Church officially declared that the Apocrypha was canonical at the Council of Trent in 1546. One must ask though if these books were authoritative, why wait over fifteen hundred years to declare their authority? It seems that Rome declared their canonical status as a direct response to the teachings of Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformers who rejected these books and their teachings.

Perhaps the biggest reason these books were even up for discussion is because St. Jerome hesitantly included them in the Latin Vulgate Bible in AD 404. Because this was the official Bible of the Western Church for over a thousand years, it’s not hard to imagine how Christians began to think the Apocrypha was also Scripture.

While Jerome included these books in his Vulgate, he specifically differentiated them from the rest of the Bible. He indicated that these books were “not for the establishing of the authority of the doctrines of the church.”4 That is to say, Jerome recognized that these books didn’t carry the same authority as Scripture. Only Scripture establishes Christian doctrine. The Apocrypha doesn’t have authority to do that.

Knowing the origins of their inclusion in the Latin Vulgate and the late declaration of their canonical status is yet another reason to reject these books as Scripture.
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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Scripture has three attributes that no other source of religious authority can even touch:

Sufficiency. Certainty. Infallibility.

Scripture testifies this about itself. Jesus said that Scripture cannot be broken (John 10:35).

2 Timothy 3:16–17 says, "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."

So scripture's testimony about itself, in its entirety, is that it is all we need—for every good work—if you're a man of God.

Scripture says that Scripture is sufficient. What do we need for faith and godliness? Scripture alone. Sola Scriptura.

Bound up with this truth is the truth that Scripture is certain. It is from God, and God cannot lie. If He has said something, that something is true.

And furthermore, Scripture is also infallible. It cannot fail. Jesus said Scripture cannot be broken (John 10:35). Everything God says in Scripture will be accomplished—as Jesus says again in Matthew 5:18: "For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

Scripture is sufficient. It is certain. It is infallible.

What else has these three characteristics? Nothing, because nothing else is "breathed out by God" in the same way (2 Timothy 3:16)

The Reformation principle of sola Scriptura has to do with the sufficiency of Scripture as our supreme authority in all spiritual matters. Sola Scriptura simply means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture. It is not a claim that all truth of every kind is found in Scripture. The most ardent defender of sola Scriptura will concede, for example, that Scripture has little or nothing to say about DNA structures, microbiology, the rules of Chinese grammar, or rocket science. This or that “scientific truth,” for example, may or may not be actually true, whether or not it can be supported by Scripture—but Scripture is a “more sure Word,” standing above all other truth in its authority and certainty. It is “more sure,” according to the Apostle Peter, than the data we gather firsthand through our senses (2 Peter 1:19). Therefore, Scripture is the highest and supreme authority on any matter on which it speaks.

But there are many important questions on which Scripture is silent. Sola Scriptura makes no claim to the contrary. Nor does sola Scriptura claim that everything Jesus or the Apostles ever taught is preserved in Scripture. It only means that everything necessary, everything binding on our consciences, and everything God requires of us is given to us in Scripture (2 Peter 1:3).

Scripture is the perfect and only standard of spiritual truth.
Furthermore, we are forbidden to add to or take away from Scripture (cf. Deut. 4:2; 12:32; Rev. 22:18-19). To add to it is to lay on people a burden that God Himself does not intend for them to bear (cf. Matt. 23:4).

Scripture is therefore the perfect and only standard of spiritual truth, revealing infallibly all that we must believe in order to be saved and all that we must do in order to glorify God.

What else you going to claim? That salvation can be lost? That grace is not sufficient and we need to add deeds?
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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How do you know you even have a complete Bible?
Because Jesus indicates in Luke 24:44 that the Jewish Scripture include, “The Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms.” In other words, Jesus breaks down the Jewish canon into three sections — the law, the prophets, and the writings (the Psalms represented the writings). Notice he doesn’t mention the Apocrypha.
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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BUT Christians and Jews have always prayed for the dead.
Just because some did, it does not make it right. The Jews also worshipped idols, should we do that also? The Christians persecuted and killed Jews because of the crucifixion. Should we do that also?


Yep, both books of Maccabees are right in there. I can open my Bibles and see those books right in there.
See post #33
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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Oh wow what a great argument. There is contradictory interpretations about pedobaptism, eschatology, salvatiom etc...so we must reject them all right?

If you don't see the sufficiency of the scripture, then I pity you. May God show you that the scripture alone is sufficient

What else? Salvation can be lost? Grace is not enough and we must add deeds?
 
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Valletta

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Absolutely false. Jews disagreed as to what books compromised Holy Scripture during the time that Jesus was on earth. The OT books were chosen because those are the books the Apostles taught from. A number of NT books that Protestants keep in their version of the Bible do not contain exact quotes from the OT, why have you kept those books? Remember the Jews whose books you accept as the OT ended up rejecting the Gospels and other books because they did not believe Jesus was the Messiah. The Catholic Church instead embraced those Jews who accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. The story of those who were tortured and died for their belief in resurrection, referred to in NT Hebrews, is found only in one place in the Bible--in 2 Maccabees. Thus it should be no surprise that eventually most Jews rejected 2 Maccabees as the Word of God that it is.
 
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chevyontheriver

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So what happens to those in Purgatory who don't have people praying for them? It seems unfair that some have people praying for them and others don't.
They too are saved before they even get there and eventually get to heaven. If you are concerned about these people you could pray for them. It's something that we have been doing for almost 2000 years, and the Jews before that have been doing for a long time. It's not hard. It's like any other intercessory prayer.
 
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trophy33

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The OT books were chosen because those are the books the Apostles taught from.
Plenty of books of the OT are not taught from. For example The Song of Songs, Esther, many of Psalms...

This rule also does not apply. Enoch is quoted, The Assumption of Moses is alluded to in the same way as you propose the 2 Macc is and still, they are not in the canon.

Canonization does not have any clear and cut rules. Similarly to inspiration. Its a mixture of various influences, habits/traditions, reasons.
 
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