Pure Land Buddhism

[GuardianShua]

For the land of pure Bud.

2 Timothy 3

1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9 But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

 

[Tariki]

For the land of pure Bud.

2 Timothy 3

1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9 But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

Quite frankly Michael, merely to quote texts to imply that while YOU have sought and found truth, and that another has not...........while knowing nothing of them but words on a forum...........and because they speak of a way that is not your own, that you refuse to engage with in any genuine or meaningful way.........you demean yourself and the truth you claim to have found and represent.

Fundamentally your position is:- I have truth, your truth uses words that I do not use, therefore you are wrong.

If such, in your eyes, is the way of Christ, then I would say you have found nothing.

 

[steve_bakr]

For the land of pure Bud.

2 Timothy 3

1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9 But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

What does this have to do with Pure Land Buddhism?

 

[benglobal]

For the land of pure Bud.

2 Timothy 3

1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9 But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

Hi Michael,

Those unworthy attributes above in the verses are not something synonymous with any faith, certainly they can be applied by any individual of any faith but to direct that at the feet of pure land Buddhism is to stand in Judgement. Is there something that you would like to share with us that has been a positive aspect to your faith, so that we can see the value that lies behind the scripture that you post. I’ll go first if you like, I practice Kriya yoga which is a meditation technique that enables me to clear my mind, shut down the senses and connect to my being. I can apply this even in a busy environment with practice, which enables me to keep that clear mind and not be driven by the senses throughout my day. That way as Tariki says is to open up to your compassion as the ego does not dominate any more, you have popped your ego into the back seat of the car and allowed your being to take the wheel and drive. So to emulate what Tariki is saying a certain enlightenment allows a certain compassionate side to progress and grow, it allows a reaching out to others, to friends, family, those in need, even to yourself, to reach out to your SELF to see what you are and what you are capable of, you know your true potential. That is not any self-proclaimed state to arrive at but literally ‘a state to arrive at’, a state of being. How you verbalize that is perhaps down to the faith you are attached to. If you read what Tariki has said you can see that pure land allows a certain creative aspect with this definition of being, there is a un attached aspect to it, which I can relate to. How has God touched your life Micheal ? how does that manifest itself in your daily life? so that we may all learn.

 

[Eudaimonist]

In the West it is largely derided, not even recognised as "true" Buddhism by those who would insist that "true" Buddhism involves deep study of the Theravada or Mahayana texts, coupled with hours of meditation "on the cushion". To say one is a Pure Lander on most Buddhist Forums is to invite being patronised - this known from first hand experience.

I had no idea that it was looked down on in the West, but I suppose that it doesn't meet up with people's expectations of what Buddhism "should" look like. Considering your eloquent defense of Pure Land Buddhism, I don't think that this treatment is deserved.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

I suspect most Westerners who are interested in Buddhism are looking for a spiritual path that differs significantly from the sort of (for lack of a better term) "religiosity" they are familiar with. (Which is also why Buddhism has the reputation of being more like a philosophy.)

Personally, I'm also not a big fan of the sort of exoteric faith that always seems to manifests in the wake of new spiritual awareness, cluttering these simple but brilliant insights with all sorts of devotional bric-a-brac.

But I can see why there'd be merit in these movements. They may not be part of my path, yet that doesn't mean that they can't be aligned with anybody else's.

 

[razeontherock]

New twist:

I suspect most Westerners who are interested in Buddhism are looking for a spiritual path that differs significantly from the sort of (for lack of a better term) "religiosity" they are familiar with. (

Personally, I'm also not a big fan of the sort of exoteric faith that always seems to manifests in the wake of new spiritual awareness, cluttering these simple but brilliant insights with all sorts of devotional bric-a-brac.

Religion is like a vaccination; it gives just a tiny bit of spirituality but keeps you from catching the real thing.

 

[Tariki]

I'll plough on............What has been said since my last post (as I engage with it....... ) causes me to think back to when I first hit the thought of what has been called "spiritual bypassing". Something to do with having an idea of how we would like to be (often some ideal of "perfection") and then convincing ourselves that we have hit the nail on the head - or, at least, not given our thumbs a good wacking! I was interested myself, having had the "wisdom" knocked out of me by two years of severe depression, and learning the hard way that a donkey with 1000 books on its back remains a donkey. I read some studies of long term meditators.............."these meditators were not without conflict, in a clinical sense.........there was evidence of unresolved personal, relational and occupational issues.........conflictual themes such as fears and dependency struggles......fear of rejection......" and so on, and on.........

All this linked in my own mind with what is also known as "spiritual materialism". The ego's constant desire for a higher, more "spiritual", more transcendental version of knowledge, religion, virtue, judgement or comfort......whatever it may be the ego seeks. It seems to me - and still does - that most religion is just a transposing of a secular materialism with a supposed spiritual one.

Possibly a lot of what I have posted here appears dry - it certainly does to me. As I hinted at the beginning - drawing down upon myself the censure of Michael - it is human anecdotes, and the actual lives of others, as they lived and experienced them, that provides a lot of my inspiration. The "founding father" of Jodo Shin Shu, Shinran (13th century) was a bit of an old stuffed shirt in many ways, but very human nevertheless. There is a frontpiece in his Complete Works, where he had been making scribbled notes all over his own copy of the Amida Sutra. I find the picture endearing, and feel a deep empathy for a human being - of another era, of another culture, who spoke another language - who studied a text that to him offered "life", poured over it, and evidently let it's words become living words that overflowed into his life. If others wish to insist that the "divine" (however conceived) must wait until a missionary of the Christian Faith reaches those who "know not Christ" before the "spirit" (however conceived) can begin its work.......well, insist upon it. I'll draw my inspiration from Shinran's life, as it was then, as he expressed it through his own times - and sufferings.

Shinran certainly never indulged in any "bypassing". At the age of 86 he wrote......

"Not really knowing right from wrong,
Not really knowing false from true,
I lack even small love and small compassion,
And yet, for fame and name, enjoy teaching others."

At such an age he saw his love of "fame", how lacking in love he was............yet in seeing this, realised that just because such was so, he was the recipient of Infinite Compassion. Shinran teaches me to keep my feet on the ground, to be as honest as I can be with myself, that - in the words of the modern Buddhist nun Pema Chodrun - I can still be crazy after all these years!

As the Shin (Pure Land) writer Taitetsu Unno has written......."Shinran gives hope that the most foolish being, lost and confused, can be transformed into its opposite, for the power of boundless compassion can make bits of rubble turn into gold."

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

What particular posts are addressed by this reply of yours, Tariki? Are you accusing Non-Pure-Land-Buddhists in the "West" of being "spiritual materialists" (as your quip at meditation seems to suggest)?

Personally, I find that there seem to be two main "currents" in spirituality throughout the ages.
One seeks to reject reality in favour of "perfection": a perpetual afterlife of unending bliss; enlightenment; the "pure" world of spirit; what-have-you. Ascetism is the most obvious manifestation of this, but it isn't limited to that. At the core of this current lies a deep-seated disgust for the transient, the ickiness of bodily fluids and excretions, the whole range of physical experience and sensuality.
This strand tends to be dualist at its core, with "the World" on the bad end of the spectrum and "perfection" on the other.

The other current - which is far less common - seeks to draw things together, to unite what appears to be (on the surface) a fundamental dichotomy. Instead of casting out everything that doesn't fit one's conception of "perfection", this path seeks to embrace reality as a whole, turning enemies into friends and transmuting the dark aspects of the soul into something sublime.

 

[Tariki]

What particular posts are addressed by this reply of yours, Tariki? Are you accusing Non-Pure-Land-Buddhists in the "West" of being "spiritual materialists" (as your quip at meditation seems to suggest)?

Personally, I find that there seem to be two main "currents" in spirituality throughout the ages.
One seeks to reject reality in favour of "perfection": a perpetual afterlife of unending bliss; enlightenment; the "pure" world of spirit; what-have-you. Ascetism is the most obvious manifestation of this, but it isn't limited to that. At the core of this current lies a deep-seated disgust for the transient, the ickiness of bodily fluids and excretions, the whole range of physical experience and sensuality.
This strand tends to be dualist at its core, with "the World" on the bad end of the spectrum and "perfection" on the other.

The other current - which is far less common - seeks to draw things together, to unite what appears to be (on the surface) a fundamental dichotomy. Instead of casting out everything that doesn't fit one's conception of "perfection", this path seeks to embrace reality as a whole, turning enemies into friends and transmuting the dark aspects of the soul into something sublime.

Jane, No, I was more thinking in terms of the idea of the ego taking the back seat, and even the words I quoted of Merton......that the "ego vanishes". I do tend to spend more time "accusing" and "criticising" myself, and the views I like, than on others. Anyway, don't try to see a strong link.........my mind seems to like striking out at strange angles.

I was in fact meditating when I read up on the by-passing, and continued for many years. And my reference to "spiritual materialism" was a totally general one, not aimed at any particular group.

I would just say that the pursuit of perfection in all its forms is, at least as I understand it, a terrible pursuit. Also, I have found that sometimes it is necessary to live with apparent contradictions..........which may or may not be resolved as time moves on (almost said at a higher level, but that's not really my scene!)


P.S.
transmuting the dark aspects of the soul into something sublime. Very suggestive of Shinran's reference to the "passions" as ice. The more ice- warmed by the light of infinite compassion - the greater the waters of enlightenment.

 

[Tariki]

Anyway, I will return to another rather "dry" exposition of certain Pure Land ways, this concerning the oft mentioned words that "No working is true working". (Most is a cut and paste from a "Glossary of Shin Buddhist Terms")

There is a Japanese word, hakarai, translated as "calculation".

(Suzuki, in his little book on Amida, equates "calculation" with the Christian "pride".)

Hakarai is the noun form of a verb meaning to deliberate, analyze, and determine a course of action. It further means to arrange or manage, to work out a problem, to bring a plan to conclusion. In Shinran's more common usage, as a synonym for self-power, it refers to all acts of intellect and will aimed at achieving liberation. Specifically, it is the Shin practicer's efforts to make themselves worthy of Amida's compassion in their own eyes, clinging to their judgments and designs, predicated on their own own goodness, for attaining religious awakening.

For Shinran, salvation lies rather in the complete entrusting of oneself to the Primal Vow, which works to bring about "the attainment of Buddhahood by the person of evil". This working is Amida's hakarai/calculation. Hakarai, then, possesses two opposed meanings, as a synonym for both self-power and Other Power, and its usage reflects the core of Shinran's religious thought, where one's calculative thinking and Amida's working are experienced as mutually exclusive. Great compassion illumines everyone at all times, but any contrivance to attain enlightenment by cultivating one's own virtues or capabilities - whether through moral action or religious practice - will blind one to it, making sincere trust (shinjin) impossible. Only when a person realizes his or her true nature as a foolish being, all of whose acts and thoughts arise from blind passions, do they awaken to the great compassion that grasps them just as they are. To know oneself and to know Amida's compassion are, in fact, inseparable aspects of the same realization, and one awakens to them simultaneously. In this awakening, one's own hakarai/calculation disappears and entrusting oneself to Amida's Vow actually comes about for the first time. Thus Shinran states, "No working (practicer's hakarai) is true working (Amida's hakarai)."

As true entrusting arises wholly from Other Power, the practicer is completely passive. Even seeking to know oneself as evil or to rid oneself of hakarai in order to accord with the Primal Vow is itself hakarai, and all such effort is futile and self-defeating. This is the paradox the Shin practicer faces. The admonition against hakarai does not mean, however, that one must renounce the aspiration for enlightenment and do nothing at all.

As a slight counterpoint to this, and to help illuminate the words, here is Thomas Merton, speaking from a Christian perspective....

In speaking of the recovery of innocence (the reversal of the "fall" ) the Christian doctrine of grace teaches us that this cannot be the work of our own "self". It is useless for the "self" to try to "purify itself," or for the "self" to "make a place in itself" for God. The innocence and purity of heart which belongs to paradise are a complete emptiness of self in which all is the work of God, the free and unpredictable expression of His love, the work of grace. In the purity of original innocence, all is done in us but without us. But before we reach that level, we must also learn to work on the level of "knowledge" where grace works in us but "not without us".

(Excerpt from "Wisdom in Emptiness", from the book "Zen and the Birds of Appetite" )

There I will leave it, at least for today.

 

[benglobal]

I'll plough on............What has been said since my last post (as I engage with it....... ) causes me to think back to when I first hit the thought of what has been called "spiritual bypassing". Something to do with having an idea of how we would like to be (often some ideal of "perfection") and then convincing ourselves that we have hit the nail on the head - or, at least, not given our thumbs a good wacking! I was interested myself, having had the "wisdom" knocked out of me by two years of severe depression, and learning the hard way that a donkey with 1000 books on its back remains a donkey. I read some studies of long term meditators.............."these meditators were not without conflict, in a clinical sense.........there was evidence of unresolved personal, relational and occupational issues.........conflictual themes such as fears and dependency struggles......fear of rejection......" and so on, and on.........

All this linked in my own mind with what is also known as "spiritual materialism". The ego's constant desire for a higher, more "spiritual", more transcendental version of knowledge, religion, virtue, judgement or comfort......whatever it may be the ego seeks. It seems to me - and still does - that most religion is just a transposing of a secular materialism with a supposed spiritual one.

Possibly a lot of what I have posted here appears dry - it certainly does to me. As I hinted at the beginning - drawing down upon myself the censure of Michael - it is human anecdotes, and the actual lives of others, as they lived and experienced them, that provides a lot of my inspiration. The "founding father" of Jodo Shin Shu, Shinran (13th century) was a bit of an old stuffed shirt in many ways, but very human nevertheless. There is a frontpiece in his Complete Works, where he had been making scribbled notes all over his own copy of the Amida Sutra. I find the picture endearing, and feel a deep empathy for a human being - of another era, of another culture, who spoke another language - who studied a text that to him offered "life", poured over it, and evidently let it's words become living words that overflowed into his life. If others wish to insist that the "divine" (however conceived) must wait until a missionary of the Christian Faith reaches those who "know not Christ" before the "spirit" (however conceived) can begin its work.......well, insist upon it. I'll draw my inspiration from Shinran's life, as it was then, as he expressed it through his own times - and sufferings.

There is certainly no cure all Tariki and certainly meditation does not fill that hole if that’s the desire. It is certainly a coping mechanism which the said studies perhaps do not highlight, in that to what degree did the mediation keep the life issues in check of the people in the studies, rather than the bottle of grog, or a bottle of pills from the quack, so I find your response to be- yes a bit dry.
I certainly don’t seek perfection either and my quest is more towards eradicating the parts of my life that no longer serve me or others of which there have been many.
I have found a letting go of any quest for ultimate truths (but for some debate here abouts) as a liberating experience, I embrace the unknown, even death, as I find in that by doing so is to let go of any ego demands for answers that I cannot know and thus put greater value into life and all that it offers.

 

[Tariki]

There is certainly no cure all Tariki and certainly meditation does not fill that hole if that’s the desire. It is certainly a coping mechanism which the said studies perhaps do not highlight, in that to what degree did the mediation keep the life issues in check of the people in the studies, rather than the bottle of grog, or a bottle of pills from the quack, so I find your response to be- yes a bit dry.
I certainly don’t seek perfection either and my quest is more towards eradicating the parts of my life that no longer serve me or others of which there have been many.
I have found a letting go of any quest for ultimate truths (but for some debate here abouts) as a liberating experience, I embrace the unknown, even death, as I find in that by doing so is to let go of any ego demands for answers that I cannot know and thus put greater value into life and all that it offers.

Ben, it certainly was not my intention to "have a go" at meditation, more to emphasise the whole possibility of "by-passing" (spiritual or not!) As I said to Jane, I have meditated myself, and in fact it was partly this that helped wean me off the anti-depressants that I needed at one time....and needed since. Again, meditation is not totally frowned upon by many Pure Landers, and is incorporated in their practice. It was just that, for me, at a certain time, I felt it was right to stop.

And your final paragraph I can completely agree with. Buddhism (across the spectrum, not just Pure Land) has a great affinity with the Christian apophatic mystical tradition, where the "real" is known more by negation than affirmation. This is where Merton can be a good guide, with his own preference for "experience" rather than dogmatics/doctrine.

I recently saw a "family tree" of this tradition, drawn from Richard Rohr's book "Things Hidden: Scripture as Spirituality", which sounded very interesting to pursue.

The way of mystery / paradox/ non duality (apophatic tradition)

Moses -- who knows God, but through the cloud
Job – none of whose questions are ever answered
Jesus –the first non-dual teacher of the West
Paul – a dialectical mystic, who was interpreted by a dualistic tradition
Desert Fathers & Mothers –no need for systematic theology, only inner experience
Evagrius Ponticus – introduces the way of unknowing
Cappadocian Fathers – Trinity as the way into mystery
Augustine – "if you understand it, it is not God"
Pseudo Dionysius – classic teacher of the apophatic way
Celtic Christianity – nature based and healing based
John Duns Scotus – intuitive cognition as balance to rational cognition
Bonaventure – the Godhead itself is a coincidence of opposites
Meister Eckhart – classic non-dual mystic and teacher
Thomas Aquinas – "all my writings are straw"
Author of the Cloud of Unknowing – classic text
Nicholas of Cusa – formal teacher of the coincidence of opposites
John of the Cross – "luminous darkness" and inner experience
Jacob Boehme – coincidence of opposites, protestant mystic
George Fox – Quaker appreciation for silence, inner light, non-violence
Thomas Merton – retrieves the contemplative tradition for the West
Bede Griffiths, John Main, Cynthia Bourgeault, Thomas Keating, Laurence Freeman, Ruth Burrows – each making use of the language of modern psychology, Eastern wisdom on the process of transformation, and the postmodern critique of knowledge, Centering Prayer / Meditation movement
Ken Wilber – "Everyone is right!" tries to hear the level of truth in every opinion
Cosmologists – making use of science, quantum physics, and knowledge of the universe to lead us back into re-appreciation for "non-knowledge" and mystery


I think of Eckhart's words......."Nothing that knowledge can grasp or desire can want is God. Where knowledge and desire end, there is darkness; and there God shines."

 

[benglobal]

Ben, it certainly was not my intention to "have a go" at meditation, more to emphasise the whole possibility of "by-passing" (spiritual or not!) As I said to Jane, I have meditated myself, and in fact it was partly this that helped wean me off the anti-depressants that I needed at one time....and needed since. Again, meditation is not totally frowned upon by many Pure Landers, and is incorporated in their practice. It was just that, for me, at a certain time, I felt it was right to stop.

And your final paragraph I can completely agree with. Buddhism (across the spectrum, not just Pure Land) has a great affinity with the Christian apophatic mystical tradition, where the "real" is known more by negation than affirmation. This is where Merton can be a good guide, with his own preference for "experience" rather than dogmatics/doctrine.

I recently saw a "family tree" of this tradition, drawn from Richard Rohr's book "Things Hidden: Scripture as Spirituality", which sounded very interesting to pursue.

The way of mystery / paradox/ non duality (apophatic tradition)

Moses -- who knows God, but through the cloud
Job – none of whose questions are ever answered
Jesus –the first non-dual teacher of the West
Paul – a dialectical mystic, who was interpreted by a dualistic tradition
Desert Fathers & Mothers –no need for systematic theology, only inner experience
Evagrius Ponticus – introduces the way of unknowing
Cappadocian Fathers – Trinity as the way into mystery
Augustine – "if you understand it, it is not God"
Pseudo Dionysius – classic teacher of the apophatic way
Celtic Christianity – nature based and healing based
John Duns Scotus – intuitive cognition as balance to rational cognition
Bonaventure – the Godhead itself is a coincidence of opposites
Meister Eckhart – classic non-dual mystic and teacher
Thomas Aquinas – "all my writings are straw"
Author of the Cloud of Unknowing – classic text
Nicholas of Cusa – formal teacher of the coincidence of opposites
John of the Cross – "luminous darkness" and inner experience
Jacob Boehme – coincidence of opposites, protestant mystic
George Fox – Quaker appreciation for silence, inner light, non-violence
Thomas Merton – retrieves the contemplative tradition for the West
Bede Griffiths, John Main, Cynthia Bourgeault, Thomas Keating, Laurence Freeman, Ruth Burrows – each making use of the language of modern psychology, Eastern wisdom on the process of transformation, and the postmodern critique of knowledge, Centering Prayer / Meditation movement
Ken Wilber – "Everyone is right!" tries to hear the level of truth in every opinion
Cosmologists – making use of science, quantum physics, and knowledge of the universe to lead us back into re-appreciation for "non-knowledge" and mystery


I think of Eckhart's words......."Nothing that knowledge can grasp or desire can want is God. Where knowledge and desire end, there is darkness; and there God shines."

Please don't think I was being flippant with my comments regarding pill popping. The comment was aimed at healthcare systems in general which does not detract from the serious issue of depression. Quite an exhaustive list above Tariki, it's perhaps interesting to note that the last entry has no particular person associated with it and also that this is the very structure that a lot of religious people are in objection to. But yes I find the more I know about the universe and even within the body the more I see I know nothing. I am in awe of the chemical and electrical processes at the synapse within the human body, this system of information transference is mind blowing. I'd attach a link but I'm on my I phone, but that brings me back to meditation and the state that can be attained that fires this synaptic system to move both electrical and chemical information around the body.

 

[Tariki]

Please don't think I was being flippant with my comments regarding pill popping. The comment was aimed at healthcare systems in general which does not detract from the serious issue of depression. Quite an exhaustive list above Tariki, it's perhaps interesting to note that the last entry has no particular person associated with it and also that this is the very structure that a lot of religious people are in objection to. But yes I find the more I know about the universe and even within the body the more I see I know nothing. I am in awe of the chemical and electrical processes at the synapse within the human body, this system of information transference is mind blowing. I'd attach a link but I'm on my I phone, but that brings me back to meditation and the state that can be attained that fires this synaptic system to move both electrical and chemical information around the body.

No, not at all. I was more concerned that I had been misunderstood. Just to make myself clear, I in no way equate meditation with "spiritual bypassing".

As far as "knowing nothing", for me such has nothing whatsoever to do with practical knowledge. One could well be a brain surgeon, or a physicist - anything! - and "know nothing" in the sense that is meant. i.e. That "spiritual truth" is not some sort of accumulation of knowledge built up over the years that we can access before each decision or act, but is more a stripping of the self. Reality-as-is is truth, pure freedom, creativity, love.........which we are able to share, by grace. Rather than being "something/someone", a self created persona considered "spiritual" and thus thrown up against those who are not so (in our eyes) , in Christian terms it is following Christ, who emptied Himself in order to become all things to all humanity. So "knowing nothing" can be a genuine spontaneity......"love God and do what you will"......or anabhoga-carya, "effortlessness" or "no striving" where "no working is true working"....as we say in the Pure Land.....

Anyway, perhaps enough waffle.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

"Man errs, till he has ceased to strive." Johann Wolfgang Goethe, Faust (Spoken by God, line 317)

"Who always strives with best intent, for him there is salvation." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Faust II (Three angels, justifying Faust's salvation)

 

[Tariki]

"Man errs, till he has ceased to strive." Johann Wolfgang Goethe, Faust (Spoken by God, line 317)

"Who always strives with best intent, for him there is salvation." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Faust II (Three angels, justifying Faust's salvation)

In Theravada Buddhism, it is said..."Buddha's can only point the way, each has to walk the path themselves". Words that would appear to call for self-reliance, and are often contrasted with the "easy" Pure Land path, where we rely upon grace. But to ask, in the light of anicca (no-self) - the central teaching of the dharma - just who it is that is doing the walking, seems a very pertinent question. This is not just playing around with words. For me it is to begin to recognise that in many respects the "religious quest" often becomes - in practice and experience - the realization that we are striving to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps. Such striving can only result in exhaustion! D T Suzuki has said.........."Other-Power is all important, but this truth is known only by those who have striven by means of self-power to attempt the impossible."

And it was a Theravadin who observed that "at the moment of emancipation, effort falls away, having reached the end of its scope". So maybe the Pure Land way is knowing the "scope" of self-power and its efforts.........and reaching its "end".

"Grace, if thou repent, thou shalt not lack. Yet who shall give ye that grace to begin?" (John Donne)

Or, again......as a counterpoint...

For the garden is the only place there is, but you will not
find it
Until you have looked everywhere and found nowhere
that is not a desert. (W.H.Auden)

Just to continue, I have always loved the little parable of the kingdom in Mark 4:26-29. Simple yet profound. We cast the seed - or, at least, we think we do, and so it would seem - yet we do not know how it springs forth......for the earth brings forth fruits of herself. It just seems to me, that when "harvest time comes", it is always with a touch of grace. Not so much a case of...."well, of course"....more a "good grief!"

One of my favorite Buddhist writers, Stephen Batchelor, has spoken of this. Of how so often we respond to moral dilemmas by just repeating the gestures and words of a parent, an authority figure, a religious text. "While moral conditioning may be necessary for social stability, it is inadequate as a paradigm of integrity."

He goes on....... "Occasionally though, we act in a way that startles us. A friend asks our advice about a tricky moral choice. Yet instead of offering him consoling platitudes or the wisdom of someone else, we say something that we did not know we knew. Such gestures and words spring from body and tongue with shocking spontaneity. We cannot call them "mine" but neither have we copied them from others. Compassion has dissolved the stranglehold of self. And we taste, for a few exhilarating seconds, the creative freedom of awakening." (From "Buddhism Without Beliefs")

A monk asked Yun Men, "What are the teachings of a whole lifetime?" Yun Men said, "An appropriate statement." (The Blue Cliff Record)

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

But to ask, in the light of anicca (no-self) - the central teaching of the dharma - just who it is that is doing the walking, seems a very pertinent question.

Ah, but that question can be extended to pretty much everything else as well: who is it that receives grace, who is it that gives it, etc.

Outside vs. inside, self vs. other - all of these virtual conflicts ultimately become moot, just another illusion.

 

[Tariki]

Ah, but that question can be extended to pretty much everything else as well: who is it that receives grace, who is it that gives it, etc.

Outside vs. inside, self vs. other - all of these virtual conflicts ultimately become moot, just another illusion.

Well, it can all end up seeming like a game, a playing with words. When the Buddha was questioned concerning suffering (dukkha), every attempt to "diagnose" it , or to say if it was caused by ourselves, or by another, or by both, or merely fortuitous, are met with "do not put it like that". So then it is put to the Buddha that there is no suffering.......

"It is not a fact that I neither know nor see suffering; I both know and see suffering."

So it is no "game". Anicca (not-self) is certainly not a teaching that there is NO self (sorry, my mistake before.....), certainly nothing to do with getting rid of the ego. It is more to see what is from the beginning. Merton often adds clarity - or in my own case, clears the fog just slightly - when he speaks of "realising we are empty " and that we do not "acquire" emptiness or become empty. Merton, as a Christian, sees such Buddhist terms as being one with the words of St Bernard, that then a person "loves with a pure love".........with a purity and freedom that spring directly from the fact that they have recovered the divine likeness and are now fully their true self because they are "lost in God."

T.S.Eliot......We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.

 

[Tobias]

...

He goes on....... "Occasionally though, we act in a way that startles us. A friend asks our advice about a tricky moral choice. Yet instead of offering him consoling platitudes or the wisdom of someone else, we say something that we did not know we knew. Such gestures and words spring from body and tongue with shocking spontaneity. We cannot call them "mine" but neither have we copied them from others. Compassion has dissolved the stranglehold of self. And we taste, for a few exhilarating seconds, the creative freedom of awakening." (From "Buddhism Without Beliefs")

Previously when I've looked into Buddhism, I got the impression that it is a self-help religion. That a person is indeed expected to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. But I guess that's not the case will all branches of it, eh?

The focus of my path revolves around what you touched on above. Those moments of truth and clarity, that apparently all seekers experience. I believe they come from God, or at least under His direction. A moment of grace if you will, where wisdom from beyond ourselves is shown to us.

Taking things further, I see the Gifts of the Spirit as various manifestations of this clarity. We as frail human beings are able to have a measure of control over it, and administer it to others under the direction of God.

Jesus talked often about the Kingdom of Heaven, not as a reward for the dead but as a reality of this life now. I see the Kingdom as many individuals, all capable of shedding light on the dark situations of life, while all existing in harmony under the authority of the Father. By working with Them, under direction from Him, our path is illuminated before us!