Public Schooling

[cubanito]

When will Protestants understand the most productive evangelistic tool is a school? The RC figured that out long ago.

JR

 

[arunma]

When will Protestants understand the most productive evangelistic tool is a school? The RC figured that out long ago.

True, but I wonder how effective Roman Catholic schooling is as an evangelistic tool (no really, I don't know one way or another). My parents went to Catholic schools back in India, yet they know next to nothing about Jesus Christ or the Bible.

Of course, it seems to me that in the past 1500 years, the Catholic Church has descended from a godly institution into a semi-Biblical, defunct church. Though they are the heirs to many great traditions and theologians, they are still haunted by the corruption that plagued their institution in the middle ages. As such, it seems to me that the modern Catholics are very hesitant to aggresively preach the Gospel, and settle rather for a position of intellectual tolerance.

My guess is that this intellectual tolerance is characteristic of Roman Catholic educational system. I know a couple of graduates from Catholic schools, and it seems as though Catholic education tends to approach Christianity from a secular standpoint. Based on what little experience I have with Catholic school through these people (and I realize it isn't enough to form a well-founded opinion), Catholic education doesn't seem to be a particularly helpful means of evangelism.

That said, the idea itself may not be so bad. I will give the Catholics credit for their academic rigor: they seem to provide a high standard of education. In India, quite a few non-Christians send their children to Catholic schools, simply because the quality of education is so much better than public schooling. By so doing, children who would otherwise get no exposure to God's word spend time reading the Bible every day. And that can't be a bad thing.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

When will Protestants understand the most productive evangelistic tool is a school? The RC figured that out long ago.

JR

The aphorism with regards to the difference between the way Protestants and RCs settled the Western Hemisphere is that the Protestants built schools while the RC's built cathedrals.

The reason that there isn't a consistent Protestant parochial school system is that the creation of the government/public school system was a Protestant achievement. The RCs perceived this and created their own school systems in the late 19thC because they saw the public system as too Protestant and religious competition.

 

[bradfordl]

All 4 of mine - 12, 10, 6, &5 - have always been home-schooled. The article linked earlier in this thread by John Taylor delineates most of our reasons pretty well, in addition to the fact that gov't schools are decidedly anti-christian and promote any other philosophy/theology as "valid" to oppose Christianity. It gets pretty silly.

I also like the idea that my kids can progress at their own pace instead of having to creep along with the slowest kid in the class.

My wife stays home and handles most of the duties, and has become somewhat of an expert on curriculi (sp?), and uses a custom mix for each. We can't afford any of the Christian schools in our area.

We're not home-school nazis, but my experience has shown me that friends whose kids attended gov't schools seem to have a much harder time with behavior and keeping their kids in church.

Funny anecdote: My wife took my kids and their Grandma (who resisted home-schooling in the past but is now acquiescent) to a gov't elementary school Chorale Group performance because one of my son's Cub Scout buddies was in it. We had a yellow diamond shaped magnetic sign on the back of our van that read, "Caution, Unsocialized Homeschoolers On Board". When they came out after the show, it had been stolen. Perhaps by one of those well-socialized gov't schoolers, or maybe even one of their uber-qualified herders, er, I mean teachers. Grandma was appaled. We weren't surprised.... after all that's where I learned to be the delinquent I was as a kid.

Ever notice how many home-schoolers make it to the finals at the national spelling bee? I want my kids educated, not assimilated and indoctrinated. And I don't think I need to throw them to the wolves to either "prepare them for real life" (never had a job where all my co-workers were the same age as myself) or for them to be little evangelists to stand against the darkness. They can do their evangelizing if they are called to it and when they are qualified. As adults. I will not cast my pearls before swine, and I would recommend any parent consider the dangers of that before putting their kids into gov't schools, even if it means doing without as nice a car or if it gets frustrating home-schooling. The alternative is very scary.

 

[cubanito]

The aphorism with regards to the difference between the way Protestants and RCs settled the Western Hemisphere is that the Protestants built schools while the RC's built cathedrals.

The reason that there isn't a consistent Protestant parochial school system is that the creation of the government/public school system was a Protestant achievement. The RCs perceived this and created their own school systems in the late 19thC because they saw the public system as too Protestant and religious competition.

You are quite correct in this history. However, such schools like Princeton, Yale ect which were founded by conservative Christians, as well as the public school system have become anti-conservative and oppose many of the Christian values conservatives hold dear. At least in the RC schools they are somewhat more neutral, and going to school is not a daily war against my passing on my beliefs to my children. The fanatical support given the Democratic party by the teacher's unions and nearly all college academics with my tax dollar is an irritant you do not feel.

The fair thing to do is have the money follow the child, and allow the parents to choose whichever institution they would like. However, pro-choice does not seem to work in this area for liberals.

As to homeschooling, it takes a huge dedication, which my wife does not want. Right or wrong, she also has concerns about socialization issues. As the sole income, I am hardly in a position to offer it myself. So for me the only affordable option is the RC system.

JR

 

[arunma]

You are quite correct in this history. However, such schools like Princeton, Yale ect which were founded by conservative Christians, as well as the public school system have become anti-conservative and oppose many of the Christian values conservatives hold dear. At least in the RC schools they are somewhat more neutral, and going to school is not a daily war against my passing on my beliefs to my children. The fanatical support given the Democratic party by the teacher's unions and nearly all college academics with my tax dollar is an irritant you do not feel.

The fair thing to do is have the money follow the child, and allow the parents to choose whichever institution they would like. However, pro-choice does not seem to work in this area for liberals.

As to homeschooling, it takes a huge dedication, which my wife does not want. Right or wrong, she also has concerns about socialization issues. As the sole income, I am hardly in a position to offer it myself. So for me the only affordable option is the RC system.

JR

Well, despite being a (conservative) Democrat, I'm tempted to agree with you on the issue you brought up regarding funding for public schools. But I haven't studied the issue in-depth, so perhaps I shouldn't form a strong opinion either way just yet.

 

[cubanito]

Earlier I think you made a note about how public school did not seem to oppose your beliefs that agressively (if not you, forgive). You noted this may be a regional matter or possibly that your views are not such that they are so diametrically opposed. For some of us, either because of the sampling error of our local school system, or because our views are more conservative still, the school system seems to be in a state of war against our beliefs.

While in school, I pretended to go along and gave the profs what they wanted to hear. I saw clearly how more outspoken honest conservatives were routinely given poor grades on superior work because of their views. So I hid my views, and got top grades for what I knew was regurgitated illogical garbage. Call me a hypocrite if you wish, I merely responded in kind. The most closed minded people I've ever met are those who most often claimed to be open minded. I learned those survival skills in Castro's communist Cuba very early.

There is a very pronounced anti-conservative bias in the school system. Perhaps your "conservative" views might be considered liberal by me, and my views those of a right wing extremist by you. One thing is clear by comparing our system to other industrialized nations: it is failing badly. Out of 25 nations, we place dead last in math, and 24th in Science from 4th to high school. Yet we speng 2 to 3 times more money per child in public school than parochial schools.

There is no competition between the public schools, and there is little choice for parents within the system (though charter schools may be a step towards it). For a political party willing to extend choice to the mother on the lifa and death of her unborn child, this curious oposition to choice after birth is interesting.

JR

 

[arunma]

Earlier I think you made a note about how public school did not seem to oppose your beliefs that agressively (if not you, forgive). You noted this may be a regional matter or possibly that your views are not such that they are so diametrically opposed. For some of us, either because of the sampling error of our local school system, or because our views are more conservative still, the school system seems to be in a state of war against our beliefs.

While in school, I pretended to go along and gave the profs what they wanted to hear. I saw clearly how more outspoken honest conservatives were routinely given poor grades on superior work because of their views. So I hid my views, and got top grades for what I knew was regurgitated illogical garbage. Call me a hypocrite if you wish, I merely responded in kind. The most closed minded people I've ever met are those who most often claimed to be open minded. I learned those survival skills in Castro's communist Cuba very early.

There is a very pronounced anti-conservative bias in the school system. Perhaps your "conservative" views might be considered liberal by me, and my views those of a right wing extremist by you. One thing is clear by comparing our system to other industrialized nations: it is failing badly. Out of 25 nations, we place dead last in math, and 24th in Science from 4th to high school. Yet we speng 2 to 3 times more money per child in public school than parochial schools.

There is no competition between the public schools, and there is little choice for parents within the system (though charter schools may be a step towards it). For a political party willing to extend choice to the mother on the lifa and death of her unborn child, this curious oposition to choice after birth is interesting.

JR

Well, from the various posts that you've made, my guess is that on the important issues, we are equally conservative. So perhaps one of us has had a particularly good/bad experience with public schools. In biology classes, for example, I have heard of cases in which teachers would fail students for expressing a belief in creationism. Now when I took biology, we studied evolution extensively, yet not once did our professor claim that humans are an evolved species!

And besides this, I haven't taken any of the "controversial" classes. I'm told anthropologists tend to be very anti-Christian, but having never taken anthropology, it could simply be that I haven't been exposed to a vehement anti-Christian sentiment that exists in public universities. But since all high school students take the same classes, I probably can speak accurately about the public high school that I attended. And as I said in my earlier post, it made no aggressive effort to discredit the Gospel of Christ.

Regarding hiding one's views, I can certainly see this happening. Last Fall when I took general relativity, our professor seemed adamently opposed to the idea of young earth creationism. Now, I happen to be an old earth creationist, so it didn't personally bother me too much (especially since he did entertain the idea of intelligent design). But putting myself in the young earth creationist's position, I can imagine how this would be rather difficult. There aren't too many YECs in the physics department; but I doubt that such a person would last very long. Usually, unbelieving scientists tend to dismiss creationist arguments (young earth or otherwise) as "arguments not worth having," thus eliminating the very possibility of open dialog. If we are to be open minded, I think that both liberals and conservatives need to more fully embrace the ideals of free speech.

On a sidenote, I'm not surprised that we place so poorly in math and science. When comparing my own school experience to that of my cousins in India, it seems that our schools tend to focus more on the liberal arts, whereas some foreign schools focus more on the hard sciences.

 

[edie19]

Ever notice how many home-schoolers make it to the finals at the national spelling bee?

I think the spelling and geography bees have done a lot to advance the cause of home-schooling and to correct many misconceptions about it.

edie

 

[cubanito]

Well, from the various posts that you've made, my guess is that on the important issues, we are equally conservative. So perhaps one of us has had a particularly good/bad experience with public schools. In biology classes, for example, I have heard of cases in which teachers would fail students for expressing a belief in creationism. Now when I took biology, we studied evolution extensively, yet not once did our professor claim that humans are an evolved species!

And besides this, I haven't taken any of the "controversial" classes. I'm told anthropologists tend to be very anti-Christian, but having never taken anthropology, it could simply be that I haven't been exposed to a vehement anti-Christian sentiment that exists in public universities. But since all high school students take the same classes, I probably can speak accurately about the public high school that I attended. And as I said in my earlier post, it made no aggressive effort to discredit the Gospel of Christ.

Regarding hiding one's views, I can certainly see this happening. Last Fall when I took general relativity, our professor seemed adamently opposed to the idea of young earth creationism. Now, I happen to be an old earth creationist, so it didn't personally bother me too much (especially since he did entertain the idea of intelligent design). But putting myself in the young earth creationist's position, I can imagine how this would be rather difficult. There aren't too many YECs in the physics department; but I doubt that such a person would last very long. Usually, unbelieving scientists tend to dismiss creationist arguments (young earth or otherwise) as "arguments not worth having," thus eliminating the very possibility of open dialog. If we are to be open minded, I think that both liberals and conservatives need to more fully embrace the ideals of free speech.

On a sidenote, I'm not surprised that we place so poorly in math and science. When comparing my own school experience to that of my cousins in India, it seems that our schools tend to focus more on the liberal arts, whereas some foreign schools focus more on the hard sciences.

Agreed, I'm an old earth creationist like you, arunma. I'm glad your schooling has been more pleasant so far.

JR

 

[No Swansong]

While in school, I pretended to go along and gave the profs what they wanted to hear. I saw clearly how more outspoken honest conservatives were routinely given poor grades on superior work because of their views. So I hid my views, and got top grades for what I knew was regurgitated illogical garbage. Call me a hypocrite if you wish, I merely responded in kind. The most closed minded people I've ever met are those who most often claimed to be open minded. I learned those survival skills in Castro's communist Cuba very early.


JR

I met, and continue to meet this challenge in a similar manner. In any class that a conservative would have been uncomfortable in (Advanced Anthropology or similar classes for example) I would write what they wanted, and I also provided a cover sheet explaining that I was presenting the material that I believed the professor wanted in the manner they wanted it but that I disagreed in part or in whole with much of what was written. I never received a bad grade and I go to a very liberal school.
This was especially helpful in Philosophy classes and Social Science classes.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

I met, and continue to meet this challenge in a similar manner. In any class that a conservative would have been uncomfortable in (Advanced Anthropology or similar classes for example) I would write what they wanted, and I also provided a cover sheet explaining that I was presenting the material that I believed the professor wanted in the manner they wanted it but that I disagreed in part or in whole with much of what was written. I never received a bad grade and I go to a very liberal school.
This was especially helpful in Philosophy classes and Social Science classes.

Thank you for sharing this technique. It demonstrates mastery of the material yet allows you to disagree with the conclusions or consequences of the ideas. The best of all possible worlds. Good ideas and i bet the profs rather like the work, you ought to ask....

 

[arunma]

I've never taken anthropology, so just out of curiosity, precisely which elements of the discipline tend to be anti-Christian?

 

[No Swansong]

I've never taken anthropology, so just out of curiosity, precisely which elements of the discipline tend to be anti-Christian?

I could go on about this for a long time but it really depends upon your view of creation.

Anthropology (in a very general nutshell) proposes that all human (as if any other could occur) civilization is based upon innate (read evolved) human need. If you believe that God created in a literal 7 days this obviously creates a problem since there would be no evolved human need. If you are a Theistic Evolutionist it still creates some problems in that to accept the basic premise of Anthropology one would need to accept that God while possibly starting the whole process did not guide it or affect it.

Mind you it has been several years since Anthropology for me and I did take it at a very liberal University from a man who is adamantly an atheist. So my experience and knowledge could definitely be skewed.

 

[arunma]

I could go on about this for a long time but it really depends upon your view of creation.

Anthropology (in a very general nutshell) proposes that all human (as if any other could occur) civilization is based upon innate (read evolved) human need. If you believe that God created in a literal 7 days this obviously creates a problem since there would be no evolved human need. If you are a Theistic Evolutionist it still creates some problems in that to accept the basic premise of Anthropology one would need to accept that God while possibly starting the whole process did not guide it or affect it.

Mind you it has been several years since Anthropology for me and I did take it at a very liberal University from a man who is adamantly an atheist. So my experience and knowledge could definitely be skewed.

Thanks. The reason I asked is because I've heard from many different people that anthropology tends to be taught from a somewhat anti-Christian standpoint. So I'm guessing that your experience with it wasn't unique. As strange as it may seem to those of us who believe in Biblical creation (whether old or young earth), biologists actually tend to believe in God to a greater extent than scientists in most other fields. I guess it's people in the social sciences who tend to take atheistic positions.

While I still reject evolution as a viable theory that is compatible with Christian doctrine, this is one reason that I've become more tolerant of the doctrine of theistic evolution. In essence, "we've got bigger fish to fry" than evolution. I suppose that certain theories in anthropology are among these fish.

 

[No Swansong]

Thanks. The reason I asked is because I've heard from many different people that anthropology tends to be taught from a somewhat anti-Christian standpoint. So I'm guessing that your experience with it wasn't unique. As strange as it may seem to those of us who believe in Biblical creation (whether old or young earth), biologists actually tend to believe in God to a greater extent than scientists in most other fields. I guess it's people in the social sciences who tend to take atheistic positions.

While I still reject evolution as a viable theory that is compatible with Christian doctrine, this is one reason that I've become more tolerant of the doctrine of theistic evolution. In essence, "we've got bigger fish to fry" than evolution. I suppose that certain theories in anthropology are among these fish.

It was a thoroughly unpleasant experience for me, but I aced the final.