PSA, an essential Christian doctrine.

[Jesus is YHWH]

Where does the Bible say he HAD to suffer the way he did?

No I didn't, you put that in my mouth. The Bible says there is death, then judgement, then punishment - in that order.

Because the Romans were cruel. They did that to hundreds of people on a regular basis.

Exactly

 

[ladodgers6]

Not at all as all the scriptures in my posts today show there was no wrath from the Father to the Son in the Bible . The atonement as I have shown has nothing to do with wrath .

So, no wrath at all. So, if as you said before, the only consequence of sin death, no punishment. Why would I care to be saved? If I can live as sinful as possible with no consequences for my evil actions. Then who cares then, if all that happens is that I go to sleep. This is paradise for murderers, pedophiles, serial rapist, mass shooters, hate crimes, the list goes on and on. Make no sense at all.

 

[Ceallaigh]

And what did Paul use to back up the doctrine of the wife's submission to the husband?

I'm talking about latter day doctrine.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

So, no wrath at all. So, if as you said before, the only consequence of sin death, no punishment. Why would I care to be saved? If I can live as sinful as possible with no consequences for my evil actions. Then who cares then, if all that happens is that I go to sleep. This is paradise for murderers, pedophiles, serial rapist, mass shooters, hate crimes, the list goes on and on. Make no sense at all.

You are making my point Gods wrath falls on the wicked not the Righteous. Christ is Righteous not wicked.

And He was killed by man not the Father.
PSA teaches that God the Father killed the Son we see Scripture once again proves the theory is unbiblical.

Acts 2:23
This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross

Acts 4:10,11
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…

Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 7:52
Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him

Acts 13:27
For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him

1 Corinthians 2:8-
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory

 

[ladodgers6]

Yes He did suffer like I said with many scriptures that affirm it was by the hands of wicked men who were responsible, not the Father.

Not for fast, a couple of thing you skim over. You said the righteous for unrighteous is absurd. But here we find that the righteous did suffer for their sins of the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God (reconciliation). Second, Jesus told his disciple he MUST be handed over to sinful men to suffer and be crucified.

18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit

“Why do you seek the living among the dead? 6He is not here, but has risen. Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee, 7that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men and be crucified and on the third day rise.”

Know what you believe and why you believe it.

 

[ladodgers6]

You are making my point Gods wrath falls on the wicked not the Righteous. Christ is Righteous not wicked.

Well, Scripture is clear and precise. 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.

And He was killed by man not the Father.
PSA teaches that God the Father killed the Son we see Scripture once again proves the theory is unbiblical.

Luke 24:6 He is not here, but has risen. Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee, 7 that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men and be crucified and on the third day rise.”

Pierced for our transgressions, and by wounds we are heal!

Know what you believe and why you believe it!

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Not for fast, a couple of thing you skim over. You said the righteous for unrighteous is absurd. But here we find that the righteous did suffer for their sins, that he might bring us to God (reconciliation). Second, Jesus told his disciple he MUST be handed over to sinful men to suffer and be crucified.

18For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit

“Why do you seek the living among the dead? 6He is not here, but has risen. Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee, 7that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men and be crucified and on the third day rise.”

Know what you believe and why you believe it.

Eisegesis it does t say He suffered at the hand of God. Nice try it was by man as I demonstrated with numerous passages . You are only protecting a man made doctrine whereas I’m the one promoting Sola Scriptura. That’s the difference between us as I don’t have to protect any ism, systematic that was formed by the reformation.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Well, Scripture is clear and precise. 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.

Luke 24:6 He is not here, but has risen. Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee, 7 that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men and be crucified and on the third day rise.”

Pierced for our transgressions, and by wounds we are heal!

Know what you believe and why you believe it!

You are making my point with every response. He suffered at the hands of wicked men not God the Father. Your 2 scriptures affirm my previous ones not contradict them . You are making them contradict the other scriptures. Yours harmonize with mine below.

Acts 2:23
This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross

Acts 4:10,11
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…

Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 7:52
Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him

Acts 13:27
For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

1 Corinthians 2:8-
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory

 

[ladodgers6]

Yes He did suffer like I said with many scriptures that affirm it was by the hands of wicked men who were responsible, not the Father.

Isaiah 53:

10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt​

 

[Ceallaigh]

You are overlooking the fact that the OT sacrificial system was the pattern/type of the NT sacrifice.
The OT sacrificial system was PSA (see post #16).

The animals were punished by being beaten whipped and put to a slow death? That's what PSA is. The sacrificial lamb had sin laid upon it and then it was killed - it wasn't punished.

 

[ladodgers6]

Eisegesis it does t say He suffered at the hand of God. Nice try it was by man as I demonstrated with numerous passages . You are only protecting a man made doctrine whereas I’m the one promoting Sola Scriptura. That’s the difference between us as I don’t have to protect any ism, systematic that was formed by the reformation.

Acts 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

By Scripture Alone!

Know what you believe and why you believe it!

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Isaiah 53:

10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt​

Thanks more proof making an entire theology based from a solitary verse ripped away from the rest of scripture and in isolation .

I will let the renown Calvinist Dr Barnes educate you on the passage.

To bruise him - (See the notes at Isaiah 53:5). The word here is the infinitive of Piel. 'To bruise him, or his being bruised, was pleasing to Yahweh;' that is, it was acceptable to him that he should be crushed by his many sorrows. It does not of necessity imply that there was any positive and direct agency on the part of Yahweh in bruising him, but only that the fact of his being thus crushed and bruised was acceptable to him

hope this helps !!!

 

[Ceallaigh]

Isaiah 53:

10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt​

Eisegesis of Isaiah 53 seems to be all there is to back up PSA biblically.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Eisegesis of Isaiah 53 seems to be all there is to back up PSA biblically.

Plus it’s also a prophecy looking forward right . So how does the NT fulfilling of that prophecy look back ?

Nothing penal is mentioned in the NT about the atonement . That alone should make anyone think twice about what they have been told and taught it means .

There is no penal aspect/ language Isaiah used that is carried over in the N.T. but that of substitution. Isaiah 53:4- WE (not God) considered Him punished by God.

The following NT passages quote Isaiah 53: Matthew 8:14-17; Mark 15:27-32; John 12:37-41; Luke 22:35-38; Acts 8:26-35; Romans 10:11-21; and 1 Peter 2:19-25. Not one of them uses any penal language where PSA gets its doctrine from in Isaiah 53 in the New Testament.

Notice above not once does any NT writer mention Isaiah 53:10 the one verse PSA is based upon.

 

[Clare73]

Where in the NT does it say the Son was punished by the Father ?

The punishment and wrath came from man. He was persecuted , punished , suffered and killed by men, not God. I provided numerous scripture in the NT confirming those facts.

By God's set purpose (Ac 2:23). . .

Not a dime's worth of difference.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

By God's set purpose (Ac 2:23). . .

Not dime's worth of difference.

I’m not denying it was predetermined yet it was done by wicked men. It was the anger , vengeance , retribution by man and not the Father which fell upon Jesus . It was the wrath of humans not God.

 

[Clare73]

I'm talking about latter day doctrine.

Strawman. . .

When did the student of Scripture become responsible for where God's truth is presented?

Eisegesis of Isaiah 53 seems to be all there is to back up PSA biblically.

Death is penal.

The death of the perfect animals in the OT sacrifices in the place of the sinner is PSA.

 

[ladodgers6]

You are making my point with every response. He suffered at the hands of wicked men not God the Father. Your 2 scriptures affirm my previous ones not contradict them . You are making them contradict the other scriptures. Yours harmonize with mine below.

Acts 2:23
This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross

Acts 4:10,11
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…

Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 7:52
Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him

Acts 13:27
For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

1 Corinthians 2:8-
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory

Will not engage in non-civil or non-cordial dialogue.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Will not engage in non-civil or non-cordial dialogue.

How is discussing scripture non civil ? What did I say that was uncivil ? Please point it out to me. Thanks !

FYI I affirm your 2 scriptures you posted and they are in harmony with the ones I posted. Show me how they are in conflict with one another.

 

[Clare73]

You are making my point Gods wrath falls the wicked not the Righteous. Christ is Righteous not wicked.

The perfect animals without defect that were sacrificed in the OT were likewise not wicked.
But sin was transferred to them by laying on of hands, making the animals sin bearers who bore their sin in their bodies, as did Christ (1 Pe 2:24).

And He was killed by man not the Father.
PSA teaches that God the Father killed the Son

By God's set purpose (Ac 2:23). . .

Not a dime's worth of difference.

we see Scripture once again proves the theory is unbiblical.
Acts 2:23
This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross
Acts 4:10,11
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…
Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 7:52
Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him

Acts 13:27
For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him

1 Corinthians 2:8-
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory