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proving evolution as just a "theory"

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AV1611VET

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You have the floor, Baptist...
They provided food for the priests, who weren't given their own real estate.

Instead, they lived inside the boundaries of other tribes, serving in the Temple.

As prophesied.

Genesis 49:7 Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.
 
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TLK Valentine

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The Indians would have men line up, and one would take a knife and go down the line with a hot blade and just touch their tongue.

The one who yelped was considered under suspicion, as lying dries the tongue.

In your opinion, do you consider that a reliable means of determining truth from lies?
 
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TLK Valentine

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They provided food for the priests, who weren't given their own real estate.

Instead, they lived inside the boundaries of other tribes, serving in the Temple.

As prophesied.

Genesis 49:7 Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.

How is that a secular purpose?
 
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AV1611VET

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How is that a secular purpose?
Feeding the priests?

They had to eat too.

Last I checked, eating is a secular activity.

Unless, of course, it's at the Lord's Table.
 
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doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
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i talking about a car or a robot that are able to reproduce.
OK, now your self reproducing car is a car that people can produce in a factory, and presumably your car carries along its own machine shop and robotic arm so it can build copies of itself. Fine, there is a whole science fiction genre of such vehicles, and you are welcome to speculate. Although this is not technically impossible, I would contend it is so impractical, it will never be done. See Self-replicating machine - Wikipedia .

But such a machine is not an animal and it is not subject to the forces that drive evolution. It cannot have babies. Baby cars could not grow up to be adult cars. It does not have cellular biology. It has no DNA. There can be none of the usual vague indeterminantcies of living cells that allow cells to experiment with other functions. It has none of the richness of carbon based life processes. As such it would not be subject to biological evolution.

exactly like i know that there is no stepwise way to evolve a car from a self replicating molecule.
You ignored the question. No problem, I will ask again: How do you know there is not a stepwise plan to evolve the supposed IC feature that you are not aware of? If there is a plan that could evolve hearing that you do not know about, then your whole argument that there is no such plan disappears. So how do you know that your assertion that there is no plan is true?
if we falsify the evolution of even a single trait then its means evolution is false. we dont need to believe in the rest. as even darwin admit.
Tell that to your ID heros. Many of them will argue that certain steps in evolution are impossible, but they appear to believe that evolution takes place at other instances.

Many propose that God occasionally had to step in and insert code into the genome, while at other times left evolution proceed on its own. If a DNA-tweaking God exists, there is no reason to believe that he tweaks sometimes, and at other times he steps back and lets evolution proceed. So no, in no way would disproving one step of evolution disprove all of evolution.


by this criteria: a car can do something that a watch cant (driving for instance)- therefore a car can evolve naturally and a watch cant.
Straw man. Nobody said that, since animals can do things watches cannot do, therefore animals can do anything.

What we say is, since animals can do some things that watches cannot do, then the fact that watches cannot evolve does not prove that animals cannot evolve.
 
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OzSpen

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You're on the wrong wavelength.

Here are the standards I use when facing things that are/are not in the Bible:

1. Bible says X, science says X = go with X
2. Bible says X, science says Y = go with X
3. Bible says Ø, science says Y = go with Y
4. Bible says Ø, science says Ø = speculate

Prime Directive: Under no circumstances is the Bible to be contradicted.

Using those standards, Captain James Cook would get a green light; while evolution would not.

AV,

So, do the archaeological discoveries of the Grand Canyon get a green light? See: Excavation Reveals Grand Canyon's Ancient Human History

Should you be more conservative and say: 'Under no circumstances are the Bible's apparent contradictions to be accepted as in-stone interpretations'?

Oz
 
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AV1611VET

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doubtingmerle

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so why you cant answer my question? again: where is the limit of pushing a creaure appearance back? 30 my? 50? you must define a limit. otherwise any fossil will fit well with evolution.
Before, I answer, let's look at how the fossil record matches your claim of what happened. Well, that is going to be pretty hard, since you won't tell us what you are arguing for. Why not? How can you spend months on end telling us that you think we got it wrong without telling us what you think is right?

Do you believe all creatures were created about 600 million years ago? Do you believe that creatures were created progressively over hundreds of millions of years? Or do you believe they were all created in 4004 BC? Or do you have some other view? Let's see your view on the table, and then we will judge how well the fossil record matches your view.

Now back to our view. First, I don't think you understand how scientists see the history of life. We do not believe that it was a steady progression to modern life, with all the intermediates dying out as the new ones came on the scene. Neither do we expect that all species that ever existed will be found as fossils. Rather we see that finds will be hit or miss, with many species never documented. We expect that we will be lucky to get what we find. We expect that we will be more likely to find a cousin of an ancestor than to find the ancestors. We expect that we will see animals with an intermediate body plan long after new species have evolved from them with new features. We will suspect that evolution will branch in many directions, and it will be sometimes hard to find which paths led to later life and which went extinct. We expect that sometimes different strands will converge on similar plans.

We also expect the oldest life will be simple, and that life will branch out as time goes on. We expect that life will become closer to modern life as time progresses. We expect that no form of life will be found in the fossil record long before the rest of the record indicates that such forms would be possible.

And we find the fossil record is remarkably close to what we expect, with all of the many thousands of fossils consistent with our view. Now please state what your view is of the history of life, and what we should expect to see in the fossil record. Then we will see how close the record matches your expectations based on your view of the history of life.

Now I will make an attempt at answering the question you asked to Pitabread. It depends on the fossil, but some finds would be truly startling. A human found 5 million years earlier than expected would be earthshattering. A member of the modern Equus (horse, zebra) genus found 20 million years early would be startling. A mammal found 100 million years before the first mammal would drop jaws. A camel in the Cambrian would send scientists scrambling. But this is not what we find. After many thousands of finds we find every single fossil consistent with evolution as understood in my paragraphs above. Your early whale fossil is no where close to being a problem for evolution. It is totally consistent with the cousin-of-ancestor and surviving-intermediates points I made above.

Caveat: The above dates are my educated guesses. Others may differ on the dates I give.

Evolution makes real claims and finds the record in remarkable concordance with its predictions. You, well you have not even made a claim yet. One would think you would need to do that before you nitpick at fossils a few percent off the age range we initially expected.
 
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doubtingmerle

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Sorry, Oz.

I'm not going to address every single discrepancy that exists.

Suffice it to say, those are the standards I use to separate truth from non-truth.

My thoughts on how the Grand Canyon was created (not formed) are pretty straightforward.
Let me guess. You think God made all those layers with the appearance of age, and God filled all those layers up with fossils that were never actually animals, but existed as fossils in the rocks from day 1. And the Grand Canyon was set in place more or less like it exists today on day 1 of creation. That is pretty much your view, yes?

That is odd, for the fossils look real to us, and the canyon sure looks like it was carved by water over millions of years.
 
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AV1611VET

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Let me guess. You think God made all those layers with the appearance of age, and God filled all those layers up with fossils that were never actually animals, but existed as fossils in the rocks from day 1. And the Grand Canyon was set in place more or less like it exists today on day 1 of creation. That is pretty much your view, yes?
No.

I believe the Grand Canyon was created when God split the landmass up into five big continents in Genesis 10.
doubtingmerle said:
That is odd, for the fossils look real to us, and the canyon sure looks like it was carved by water over millions of years.
The creation of the Grand Canyon had nothing to do with the events of the creation week.

Ever pull a table apart to put a leaf between it?

That's essentially what happened.
 
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doubtingmerle

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No.

I believe the Grand Canyon was created when God split the landmass up into five big continents in Genesis 10.
That is odd, for the fossils look real to us, and the canyon sure looks like it was carved by water over millions of years.
 
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AV1611VET

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That is odd, for the fossils look real to us,
Can't get your mind off fossils, can you?

The fossils look real because they are real.

What fossils have to do with the Grand Canyon though, I have no idea.

And what the Grand Canyon has to do with the events of the creation week I also haven't a clue.
doubtingmerle said:
... and the canyon sure looks like it was carved by water over millions of years.
In my opinion, the Colorado River came after the Grand Canyon; not before it.

When God pulled the continents apart, and the earth cracked open and the Grand Canyon appeared, a river of water started flowing through it.
 
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OzSpen

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Sorry, Oz.

I'm not going to address every single discrepancy that exists.

Suffice it to say, those are the standards I use to separate truth from non-truth.

My thoughts on how the Grand Canyon was created (not formed) are pretty straightforward.

Well tell us your 'thoughts' on the Grand Canyon. But is that evidence or your opinion?
 
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OzSpen

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Indeed -- the reality is that humans are fallible in all things.

And since you and I are both humans, what does that make us?

TLK,

You seem to have missed a piece of the picture. Yes, we are fallen human beings who sin, but when Jesus Christ changes Christians through conversion to Christ (being 'born from above', John 3:3), something radical happens to us:

Don’t live the way this world lives. Let your way of thinking be completely changed. Then you will be able to test what God wants for you. And you will agree that what he wants is right. His plan is good and pleasing and perfect (Romans 12:2 NIRV).​

Renewing of the mind - do you get it? The mind is being renewed by Christians as they mature as believers. The renewing o f the mind entails not living 'the way this world lives' - like, as a humanist.

This renewing allows Christians to test what God wants in the way they live and agree that what God wants is right and what they want for themselves is 'doing it my way' (Frank Sinatra).

I hope your mind will be open to the God who changes human beings to cause them to be able to renew their minds and know what is right - determined by Scripture (2 Tim 3:16-17).

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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What fossils have to do with the Grand Canyon though, I have no idea..

AV,

Is it not a fact that many fossils have been found in the Grand Canyon? See: Fossils [Grand Canyon].

So, fossils have much to do with the layers in the Grand Canyon. There are many of them located there.

Why question 'what fossils' have to do with the Grand Canyon? They have many things to do with it. Why are you avoiding this evidence?

Oz
 
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AV1611VET

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Well tell us your 'thoughts' on the Grand Canyon.
Post 6033
OzSpen said:
But is that evidence or your opinion?
My opinion.

My opinion that it was a miracle that did it.

Meaning myopic science can't verify it.
 
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OzSpen

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And here is the most enormous presupposition - you presuppose that the Bible is the word of god. Once we drop that presupposition and look solely at evidence we find the Bible to be less than convincing.



Please provide evidence for the truthfulness of the NT documents.

Bungle,

FALSE!

images


Whose presupposition is it that the Bible is the word of God?


Why are you repeating your question to try to uncover your FALSE understanding of my views?

images


Other than the Bible, what documentary evidence did you use?

In this question, you assume 2 errors:
  1. Documentary evidence outside of the Bible is needed to confirm its authenticity.
  2. The Bible's documentary evidence is fake and is of no use in determining the trustworthiness of the Bible documents.
Is it true that these are your assumptions?

Nonsense. The problem with NT is that there are no other texts or physical evidence supporting them. Most texts we consider reliable have multiple verifying sources. Mr Koukl is relying on false equivalence to make this statement.

Sadly, this demonstrates the 'nonsense' you are promoting here. You don't want to acknowledge that texts and physical evidence outside of the Bible that affirm the authenticity of OT or NT.

There are three primary tests that historians use to determine the historical veracity of a document:

In his book, Introduction in Research in English Literary History, C. Sanders sets forth three tests of reliability employed in general historiography and literary criticism. These tests are:
  • Bibliographical (i.e., the textual tradition from the original document to the copies and manuscripts of that document we possess today)
  • Internal evidence (what the document claims for itself)
  • External evidence (how the document squares or aligns itself with facts, dates, persons from its own contemporary world).
It might be noteworthy to mention that Sanders is a professor of military history, not a theologian. He uses these three tests of reliability in his own study of historical military events (Dr Patrick Zukeran, Understanding Archaeology).​

It is you who are creating your own dilemma. You are demonstrating you are not a textual critic who understands the rules/criteria for determining reliability of any historical document.

There is nothing in that book to indicate the documents are anything other than stories. The whole argument appears to be "the documents were written between 20 and 70 years after Jesus death, therefore they must be accurate."

Here you state that F.F. Bruce's book, The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable, is demonstrating 'The whole argument appears to be "the documents were written between 20 and 70 years after Jesus death, therefore they must be accurate'

That is bunk and it is not the evidence provided by the Professor of New Testament at Manchester University in the UK, the late F F Bruce, in that book.

Please provide evidence for the truthfulness of the NT documents.

I already have, but you are not listening. Your anti-biblical presuppositions are standing in the way of your being able to examine the bibliographical and archaeological evidence objectively.

What did you do in your post?
  1. You misrepresented my view and so created a straw man logical fallacy.
  2. You demonstrated you don't understand the criteria for determining the accuracy of any historical document, including the OT and NT.
  3. I provided the evidence, but your atheistic presuppositions are a barrier to being open to ALL the evidence.
images


Oz
 
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AV1611VET

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Is it not a fact that many fossils have been found in the Grand Canyon?
I'll take your and their word for it.
OzSpen said:
So, fossils have much to do with the layers in the Grand Canyon.
Fossils had NOTHING to do with the creation of the Grand Canyon.

Unless your point is that their presence in the earth created pressure points that caused the area to crack open; but I'm sure that's not what you think happened.
OzSpen said:
There are many of them located there.
Are they necessary to explain how the Grand Canyon was [formed]?
OzSpen said:
Why question 'what fossils' have to do with the Grand Canyon? They have many things to do with it. Why are you avoiding this evidence?
Are you wanting to discuss the age of the Grand Canyon, or how it came into existence?
 
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