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proving evolution as just a "theory"

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bhsmte

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I consider everything you say. I just do not have a comment on everything you say. That means I have nothing to add to what you have said.

Judging by your responses, you clearly ignore what suits you.
 
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pitabread

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I do not believe in the random mutation theory. A lot of the theory has nothing to do with mutations, the information was there from the beginning. For example I do not consider frame shift to be a mutation but it is included in the mutation theory.

How could you not consider a frame shift a mutation? It's describing a specific type of change to DNA as a result of copying errors that occur during replication, which is by definition what a mutation is.

Or is this just a case of rewriting the dictionary again?
 
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bhsmte

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Because it doesnt suit him.
 
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PsychoSarah

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I do not believe in the random mutation theory. A lot of the theory has nothing to do with mutations, the information was there from the beginning. For example I do not consider frame shift to be a mutation but it is included in the mutation theory.
-_- frame shifts are the consequence of mutations that add or remove one or more bases from the DNA. They do not occur without mutation.

A good example are the hamsters you buy in the pet stores. Because of inbreeding they tend to all be the same color but in the wild they were many different colors like most all species.
This is an example of a population bottleneck, I suppose, but I have no idea what you are talking about, because the hamsters I see in pet stores are of a variety of colors.

In the case of population bottlenecks, it takes many generations for a bottlenecked population to regain the genetic diversity it had prior to the bottleneck event. Basically, that reduced population simply hasn't experienced mutations for color yet, but they eventually will, just like what happens with the carnivorous plants in cultivation (like with these Venus fly traps)





and what wild plants generally look like:
 
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DogmaHunter

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Awesome. Another round of creationist dishonesty / bearing false witness.

1. comparative embryology gives many insights into development
2. fossils are fully formed, because there's no such thing as a crockoduck
3. it's not just about mere similarity, it's about the pattern of similarity

4. it's evidence of common ancestry
 
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DogmaHunter

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Err.... mutations are not a "'theory".

Mutations factually happen. All the time. In all individuals.
Newborn humans have 50 of them on average.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Err.... mutations are not a "'theory".
Perhaps you should read the article on evolution as a fact and a theory.

Newborn humans have 50 of them on average.
Drawing conclusion from those so called mutations is called a theory. Stephen Jay Gould described fact in science as meaning data, not absolute certainty. A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of such facts.

Creationism and Evolution has all the same facts. They just have different theories to explain those facts. I consider theistic evolution - creationism and this is where creationism and evolution starts to blend together.
 
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joshua 1 9

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I have no idea what you are talking about, because the hamsters I see in pet stores are of a variety of colors.
There are 26 species of wild hamster that run free in parts of Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. The ones we see in the pet store are Syrian hamsters. They like to draw conclusions using the Syrian hamster without taking the other 26 species of hamsters into consideration.
https://voices.nationalgeographic.org/2014/03/07/hamsters-origins-syrian-aleppo-animals-world-pets/
 
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joshua 1 9

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it takes many generations for a bottlenecked population to regain the genetic diversity it had prior to the bottleneck event.
Just bring a species in from outside of the group. A lot of problems will not be expressed if only the mother or the father carries it. My wife comes from the other side of the world. I could not have gone any further to find a wife. But our son is very healthy.
 
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Jimmy D

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Yah I know. They don’t classify us as they do the rest of the animal kingdom (except dogs), even if we are supposed to be just evolved animals.

This has been explained to you, you even linked to some spiders earlier in the thread that are classified along similar lines.

"It's because genetically there isn't significant difference between the races, there could be more difference between two englishmen than there is between and englishman and an african, not only that there are very few populations that have developed in isolation."
Me

Did you forget?
 
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DogmaHunter

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Perhaps you should read the article on evolution as a fact and a theory.

Perhaps you should decide what you are talking about: the fact of mutations or the theory of evolution.

Drawing conclusion from those so called mutations is called a theory. Stephen Jay Gould described fact in science as meaning data, not absolute certainty. A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of such facts.

Mutations factually happen.
You spoke of the "theory of random mutation". There is no such thing. Mutations happen. Fact.

Creationism and Evolution has all the same facts.
In my experiences, creationists tend to ignore or just deny the vast majority of facts.

They just have different theories to explain those facts.

No. Science explains the facts. Creationism asserts religious dogma's, and then tries to force-fit facts into those assertions. And those that don't fit are then either ignored or just misrepresented.

I consider theistic evolution - creationism and this is where creationism and evolution starts to blend together.
And then you're still adding undetectable parameters to the process that make no difference at all. And the only reason you do so, is just to be able to marry it with your preconceived religious beliefs.

In reality, there is nothing in the sciences or in observable reality that warrants adding such an "undetectable guiding entity" to the mix.

If evolution could be expresed as an equation X = Y + Z, then "theistic evolution" would turn that equation into X = Y + Z + G. Where "G" represents your God.

And when worked out, G would equal 0.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Your wife is a Homo Sapiens, just like you. Not a different "species".

A genetic bottleneck represents a loss in variation within a species.
 
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Ophiolite

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You spoke of the "theory of random mutation". There is no such thing.
This turns out not to be entirely correct. Though I don't think this is what is being referred to in this thread, Mutation Theory was the prevalent way to account for evolution in the early 1900s. IIRC this arose out of the discovery of Mendel's work by de Vries, Bateson and Correns. The notion was that speciation occured by large jumps caused by mutations. Natural Selection was discounted as of no real importance. Haldane and Sewall Wright resolved the issue in the 1920s.
 
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Jimmy D

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I at least presented some evidence

The absence of both the SINE element and SNP allele in grey wolves suggests that the mutation for small body size post-dates the domestication of dogs. However, because all small dogs possess these diagnostic mutations, the mutations likely arose early in the history of domestic dogs. Our results show that the small dog haplotype is closely related to those in Middle Eastern wolves and is consistent with an ancient origin of the small dog haplotype there. Thus, in concordance with past archeological studies, our molecular analysis is consistent with the early evolution of small size in dogs from the Middle East.

You have done nothing but assert so don't pretend to have "more evidence". If you can provide empirical evidence that all the variations that we see in humans (or dogs) were present in the "original" genome I'll happily accept your claims.

How did the wolf become the chihuahua if organisms cant cross the "breed barrier"?

I wouldn’t either since every form of life was created fully formed. But that’s what they say.

Right, right. Soft bodied Metazoans were specially created 600 million years ago, first fish 500 million years ago, first amphibians 400 million years ago, reptiles 300 million years ago etc etc.

If each of these creatures was created separately over the course of hundreds of millions of years it's almost an unbelievable coincidence that they are (without exception) in the sequence that we would expect to see if evolution were true.
 
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Jimmy D

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And I asked what Creationist theory explains the fossil record? I apologise if I missed your answer.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Perhaps you should decide what you are talking about: the fact of mutations or the theory of evolution.
Congratulations, you have accomplished the epithet of absurdity.
 
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Jimmy D

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Sorry about not finishing my reply, I had to restart my PC.

Hey, it’s them that claim the genome is now 98% non-functional because of error over time.

I'm afraid my knowlege is lacking here. Are you saying this figure has changed by 98% during the course of human existence? Can you cite your sources for this so I can read up on it?

Surely your not going to ignore that I have already said the quadrillionth mutation may in some accidental way impart a benefit to the organism. But most result in that 98% non-functional trash that it ends up being.

OK, so you accept that that has happened, good stuff.

Or just the fact that they are interbreeding, 3 of them so intensely that they are merging into one as they put it?

So you don't think that natural selection played a part in the variety of finches?

So why object to the empirical evidence then and propose something different far, far in the past when you couldn’t observe what mated with what?

Are you referring to the empirical evidence that "Mastiffs are still Mastiffs"? I don't think any right-minded person would expect otherwise. I don't consider that as evidence that the characteristics of populations don't change over long periods of time.
 
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