Prove the Bible

[Insane_Duck]

Then the question may be, is my subjective evidence and knowledge enough to explore or reject the Bible? I guess I am on one side of the tipping point and you are on the other.

(Personally) I wouldn't call it enough to reject the Bible, but as it isn't sufficient evidence for the supernatural claims of Christianity, there would have to some other evidence to reasonably convince me.

 

[SonOfTheWest]

(Personally) I wouldn't call it enough to reject the Bible, but as it isn't sufficient evidence for the supernatural claims of Christianity, there would have to some other evidence to reasonably convince me.

Personally I would dismiss it entirely. Beyond it simply being value judgement trying to be disguised as evidence. It also has monumental ethical and moral hurdles to climb. The claim is made within some assumption that in order to actually be moral and from this morality express that morality outwardly through example,actions,etc. Then one must there for be a member of the specific faith. Unsurprisingly in history this also comes with the addendum that you must be a member of a specific sect of a specific faith. Of course, for some people this is not a problem and simply in their minds an outgrowth of their concept of exlusive religion. It's a fine idea.....for countless centuries ago within far more geographically isolated enclaves of culture. Not that the modern era is free of these ideas of course, but the nature of what constitutes the enemy Other has shifted in light of advanced technology and a lot of other factors.

Moral superiority within a faith group is certainly in my mind is evidence of ancestral xenophobia. It's certainly not metaphysical evidence.

 

[maizer]

1. You are making a poor assumption about me.

2. Your question is poorly worded. Your "subjective evidence" is not evidence. It's a value judgement expressing a personal preference for socially beneficial behavior within a culture that is in some large degree, if not entirely Judeo/Christian dominated. Not that such a thing homogenously exists but you could spend a lifetime of research and writing books on the subject of different cultural influences at various degrees of social constructs(the person, immediate family, neighborhoods,cities,etc) and not exhaust the material to be discussed.

In short, you are simply expressing a preference. This is no more evidence than "I like football." is evidence for the nature of atoms.

Actually, the majority of the changed folks I've seen were from outside the Western world(I used to live abroad).

And as you said, it may be evidence, it may be not. Why don't you ask the people who were actually blessed? I am one of them, and I attribute it to the Bible and God. Of course you can say that is not proof, and you may be right. But regardless, I am happier, they are happier, and that peace and happiness is not subjective, that is truth.

 

[SonOfTheWest]

Actually, the majority of the changed folks I've seen were from outside the Western world(I used to live abroad).

And as you said, it may be evidence, it may be not. Why don't you ask the people who were actually blessed? I am one of them, and I attribute it to the Bible and God. Of course you can say that is not proof, and you may be right. But regardless, I am happier, they are happier, and that peace and happiness is not subjective, that is truth.

I never mentioned the West so....no real point in you mentioning. Though I suppose maybe you're trying to somehow continue your discussion with Duck about far eastern theologies. Irrelevent to me.

It's not evidence. It's the declaration of a sociological preference. Nothing more.

 

[maizer]

(Personally) I wouldn't call it enough to reject the Bible, but as it isn't sufficient evidence for the supernatural claims of Christianity, there would have to some other evidence to reasonably convince me.

I think even if all the supernatural claims of any religion, including Christianity, were to be proven true, yet did nothing to positively impact the character, happiness, and lives of you or me, it would all be for naught. Nothing more than a puffed up magic show that would have the followers of that religion screaming out dogma because their claims were proven.

Ideally I think Jesus said it best:

John 13:34-35
34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

Unfortunately I know many Christians don't do near enough, beginning with myself.

 

[maizer]

I never mentioned the West so....no real point in you mentioning. Though I suppose maybe you're trying to somehow continue your discussion with Duck about far eastern theologies. Irrelevent to me.

It's not evidence. It's the declaration of a sociological preference. Nothing more.

I see, to be honest I'm trying to understand your reasoning, but probably missed something.

About sociological preference, is not love, peace, happiness, self discipline and forgiveness a universal trait we'd like to see in anyone regardless of society, preference, or time?

 

[Insane_Duck]

I think even if all the supernatural claims of any religion, including Christianity, were to be proven true, yet did nothing to positively impact the character, happiness, and lives of you or me, it would all be for naught. Nothing more than a puffed up magic show that would have the followers of that religion screaming out dogma because their claims were proven.

Ideally I think Jesus said it best:

John 13:34-35
34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

Unfortunately I know many Christians don't do near enough, beginning with myself.

And likewise, even if a religion was proven to have overwhelmingly positive effects it wouldn't prove the truth of it.

 

[maizer]

And likewise, even if a religion was proven to have overwhelmingly positive effects it wouldn't prove the truth of it.

Touche

 

[AlexBP]

Can you provide a testimony?

You can read plenty of testimonies rights here on this website. I, however, would recommend focusing on some of the better-known testimonies from well-known figures such as Saint Paul, Saint Francis, Joan of Arc, Saint Teresa of Avila, John Wesley, and Blessed Alexandrina da Costa. Saint Paul's life is covered thoroughly in the Bible, of course, and for the others Biographies would be readily available in a library or bookstore or you could simply search online.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

What would you say is the strongest evidence for the truth of the claims made in the bible?

I would say for me there are a quite a few things that all work together. I have experienced the miraculous though out my life to a degree, i.e. one healing, many times God revealing himself to me through direct communication, see Know God Personally. I have also read testimonies of people who have died and met Jesus and stuff like that, then he has sent them back withh a message as an example Ian McCormack - Heaven Hell and the Box Jellyfish. There are also people who have raised the dead in Jesus name see Freedom Ministries -- Jesus is King -- Go for it! - Home, and healed all manner of sickness (more examples included at the bottm of this post). I can believe them because I have seen similar things. This kind of power only comes from God. It is all based upon Jesus words where he said things like the following:

Mat 10:7-8 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons: freely ye received, freely give.

Mar 16:17-18 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; ... they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father. - Joh 14:12

I have included a story here from my web site about how God showed me a particular verse in the bible was inspired by him, by him performing a miraculous sign. It is just a common thing that happens.

In june 2011 I came accross a post on a forum asking Muslums if adulterers should be stoned to death. I.e. have rocks thrown at them until they die. According to Muslum law it is a just penalty. The Muslums on the forum said they should be stoned no argument. I was opposed to the idea believing Jesus showed us the true example of how we should treat sinners which was to show forgiveness, as shown in John chapter 8 in the bible. I will first share the story of what Jesus did.

The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" ...When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."- Joh 8:3-11

So Jesus basically said no one is perfect, and we should be willing to forgive peoples sins. He did tell her to go and sin no more so he was not condoning sin. He was just not judgmental, but rather loving. However there are a lot of people in the world that do not even believe the story is inspired by God. They believe it was added to the bible in the 4th century. 400 years after Christ. Some one confronted me with this idea, and I did not know what to do so I went away and researched it. I found that there were agruments for both sides and both sides made good points. So I was confused did Jesus really do it or not. I did not want to just believe in a story because I was told it was true. So I prayed for a night and ask God to reveal to me by opening the bible at random whether it was true or not. I said "If it opens to the verse about the Adulterer, then I will know it is from you", I said "If it opens to the verse in the bible about not one jot or tidle passing from the law until all is accomplished I will know you did not do it". So I tried it around twice, but nothing happened. I went to bed and prayed more. The next day I got up and researched the topic for hours. But could come to no conclusion based upon my research. So I went away and prayed again. I opened the bible twice at random and still nothing. Then I prayed and said to God, "Look God I am not doing this from an unbelieving heart, or trying to seek a sign for a signs sake, I just want to know the truth, show me the truth, did you do it or not, if you show me no then I will believe no, just tell me the truth". So I opened the bible at random one last time, and guess what it opened to John Chapter 8. John chapter 8 is the story of Jesus forgiving the adulterous woman. So God did eventually answer my prayer, and he showed me that the scripture was indeed true, that Jesus did perform the act of forgiveness. This occured on 11 June 2011.

As I said this kind of sign is fairly common in my life, i.e. getting revelation abouts God's will directly from the bible, see Know God Personally for other examples.

To finish I have included another example of it happening, just so you get the idea of how useful I find the bible in daily life.

One time I thought about suing some one but felt bad about it because I did not want to give a bad impression about what a Christian is like. So I prayed and asked God to show me clearly what to do. Latter that day I opened my bible at random, selecting a random verse and it opened to "Nay, already it is altogether a defect in you, that ye have lawsuits one with another. Why not rather take wrong? why not rather be defrauded?" 1Co 6:7 So I knew what God was thinking, no lawsuit. From this I do not believe God was saying the legal system is wrong just this particular action.

Just returning to the story of the adulterous woman. Many people think God will abondone them if the sin. But God is always gracious to restore. Shane Willard a pastor was speaking at a church I attended for a while. He told a story of some one who committed fornication, had sex outside of marriage, the unfortunate thing for them was they got a VD, a sexually transmitted disease. They went to Shane for councelling and he prayed for them and they were healed. So God is not a monster, he wants to bless people. The bible says the goodness of God leads people to change, not judgment. He is a good God. God is quite a nice guy from my experience. For shanes web site see http://www.shanewillard.org/ he is mainly a biblical teacher, and a professional councellor, yet God uses him powerfully. That reminds me he is the one who open the eyes of a blind woman while on a visit to Australia. While on the topic of blind people being healed Terry Walker has also healed the blind, among other things, he has amazing faith much bigger than mine, see http://pastorterrywalker.com/.

 

[Insane_Duck]

Hm. If you look at my post about the reason at the end of the first page, I need something fairly concrete. Your post is mostly anecdotal accounts that only carry weight for you personally. Remember, evidence is only useful if you can use it to prove something to someone else.

 

[JediMobius]

Prove? How about evidence of its reliability?

The Reliability of the Bible | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site
Reliability of the Bible
Bible Reliability: M-A-P-S to Guide You through Bible Reliability
Why the Bible Is the Word of God - Can I Trust the Bible?

 

[Insane_Duck]

Prove? How about evidence of its reliability?

The Reliability of the Bible | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site
Reliability of the Bible
Bible Reliability: M-A-P-S to Guide You through Bible Reliability
Why the Bible Is the Word of God - Can I Trust the Bible?

Thanks, I'll look through that.

 

[JediMobius]

Thanks, I'll look through that.

It has charts! I was hoping to find more specifics about archeological finds which support different books. To be somewhat anecdotal, I read that skeptics once doubted that the historical existence of kings listed in Genesis 14:1-2, eventually the names were recognized as authentic ancient names native to that region at that time. Sorry I can't find a reference for that though... I'll work on archeological things for ya.

 

[Dark_Lite]

Thanks, I'll look through that.

If you're only building your case on Biblical literalism, you're going to have to settle for a lot less than you could actually get. The type of Christianity that often comes along with Biblical literalism generally doesn't have any coherent connection to the vast wealth of Christian history. The furthest back it will usually go is the 18th or 17th centuries if you're lucky.

If you want the good stuff, you will need to delve into the ancient history of Christianity. How it spread, the players involved, records of visions, records of miracles, etc.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Hm. If you look at my post about the reason at the end of the first page, I need something fairly concrete. Your post is mostly anecdotal accounts that only carry weight for you personally. Remember, evidence is only useful if you can use it to prove something to someone else.

Hi well what I would suggest is that you follow up on some of the things I have said in my post. There is no way to prove that people were healed unless you actually seek out these people and verify the accounts. So do it. But Jesus said blessed is the one who does not have to see to believe, what does that mean in regards to you, well you are a bit stuborn you asked for proof, I gave you heaps of links to people who have seen verifyable miracles, yet your response is where is the actual proof. As for my experiences, are you calling me a lier? Just making a point of your response. I realise I need to be able to provide concrete proof of things, and to some people my prayers have done that, i.e. in the healing, in recieving a word from God for them. But just becasue it does not happen 100% of the time, does not mean it does not happen, I have never heard of any pastor who has had a 100% success rate in healing etc. But I said they HAVE blinded people healed, some have rasied the dead, others have healed, cancer, aids, all sorts of things. It is really not uncommon umong christian pastors. I don't know of any christian pastors on this forum, just ask questions of those people I gave you links to, I am sure they are not too busy to answer a question or two. But I do plead with you don't be like many people I know who regardless of the evidence still try to reason it away. Trust what I say also in regard to my experience, I am sure you are not in heart the kind of person who intentionally goes around calling others liers.

 

[Insane_Duck]

If you're only building your case on Biblical literalism, you're going to have to settle for a lot less than you could actually get. The type of Christianity that often comes along with Biblical literalism generally doesn't have any coherent connection to the vast wealth of Christian history. The furthest back it will usually go is the 18th or 17th centuries if you're lucky.

If you want the good stuff, you will need to delve into the ancient history of Christianity. How it spread, the players involved, records of visions, records of miracles, etc.

It would also work if I could legitimize the authority of the Pope. That way I would have a justification to pick and choose.

 

[Insane_Duck]

I actually missed your post at the end of the last page. But I'll look through it as soon as I have time. My post at the beginning of this page wasn't directed at you.

Hi well what I would suggest is that you follow up on some of the things I have said in my post. There is no way to prove that people were healed unless you actually seek out these people and verify the accounts. So do it.

People have been trying for a long, long time. There simply aren't any decent legitimate accounts. (not to mention the same type of thing is mirrored in all religions) Also, most of the illness's cured are entirely within the realm of the physical. Now if God healed an amputee it would be another story...

But Jesus said blessed is the one who does not have to see to believe, what does that mean in regards to you, well you are a bit stuborn you asked for proof, I gave you heaps of links to people who have seen verifyable miracles, yet your response is where is the actual proof.

Asking for anyone to believe in something without evidence or reason to do so is illogical. I could surround the Flying Spaghetti Monster in the same dogma, but would you believe it?

As for my experiences, are you calling me a lier?

You could be merely misinformed. I'm not sure what I would be calling you a liar about, because I haven't yet read your other post, but there are all sorts of other options (which end with your account being false) that don't call you a liar.

Just making a point of your response. I realise I need to be able to provide concrete proof of things, and to some people my prayers have done that, i.e. in the healing, in recieving a word from God for them. But just becasue it does not happen 100% of the time, does not mean it does not happen, I have never heard of any pastor who has had a 100% success rate in healing etc. But I said they HAVE blinded people healed, some have rasied the dead, others have healed, cancer, aids, all sorts of things. It is really not uncommon umong christian pastors. I don't know of any christian pastors on this forum, just ask questions of those people I gave you links to, I am sure they are not too busy to answer a question or two. But I do plead with you don't be like many people I know who regardless of the evidence still try to reason it away. Trust what I say also in regard to my experience, I am sure you are not in heart the kind of person who intentionally goes around calling others liers.

Again, I don't have time at the moment to go through the presented evidence, but I have saved it. But at my current understanding (and that of most professionals) is that there are no legitimate accounts of medical miracles.

 

[Insane_Duck]

You can read plenty of testimonies rights here on this website. I, however, would recommend focusing on some of the better-known testimonies from well-known figures such as Saint Paul, Saint Francis, Joan of Arc, Saint Teresa of Avila, John Wesley, and Blessed Alexandrina da Costa. Saint Paul's life is covered thoroughly in the Bible, of course, and for the others Biographies would be readily available in a library or bookstore or you could simply search online.

Hmm... I should say that if anyone wants to make a miracle claim here they should back it up with some verifiable medical evidence. I'm sorry I said testimony. (testimony usually being the claim about the miracle, I know there are plenty of those)

 

[Dark_Lite]

It would also work if I could legitimize the authority of the Pope. That way I would have a justification to pick and choose.

I'm not even talking about the authority of the Pope, specifically. That in and of itself is a disputed subject. The Orthodox deny papal supremacy (but not necessarily primacy.

This isn't historical information, but it's something along the lines of what I'm talking about: http://network.nationalpost.com/NP/...oubtersare-called-upon-to-prove-miracles.aspx

In the end, if you're going out looking for hard scientific evidence of the existence of God, you're not going to find any. That's pretty much been established since science became separate from natural philosophy. But if you are looking for historical evidences that tie religion into the human experience and lends credence to its development, then you will find plenty of that. People like to think religion is some transcendental thing that is out of the grasp of humans. This may be a good or bad thought: if it's a good thought, people conclude a god created their religion. If it's a bad thought, the idea is often that a "privileged" few started a cult and tried to control the populace.

But when we examine the history of Christianity, we don't find either. Christianity is in between. It is a synthesis of humanity and the divine (if the divine does indeed exist). It was never created to be controlling. It may have developed into that at some points in its history, but at its core Christianity has always been about people having belief in Christ and the interactions that follow it. The Ecumenical Councils and the writings of the ECFs show a Christianity that is very active and alive, with the love of God as its focus. It is not a slave to literalism or driven by prejudices.