Prove it

[Napoleon]

If we evolved from ape like creatures then what ape like creature would this be? Is it now extinct? And if so then where is the evidence that it existed in the first place? Simple comparison will not wrok because it can work in reverse. I could point out that chimpanzees and orangutans are similar and could have evolved from gorillas which is completly oppositie of humans.

My mother exist because we are of the same species. I wasn't born of an ape. This is one of the "holes" that I'm concerned about. If humans evolved then where is the proof that we have changed in the slightest way since history had started to record? And don't bother telling me that it takes millions of years to "evolve", even if that were true there would still be evidence of evolution as of today.

How can I prove that God exists? Thats simple enough, how does the universe stay togther? Why doesn't everything get sucked into a blackhole? Why does the moon orbit earth without falling from the sky? Because a higher intelligence is at work. Bible prophecies have become true when they were made almost 2000 years ago so why do they now come true unless a higher intelligence is at work?

As I preview my post I notice more and more nonsense erupting without anymore proof. Thank you all for proving my points. Since your all dead set on having a knock down brawl rather than an intelligent chat on creationism vs. evolutionism and the only thing you have proven to me is that none of you are willing to look or take anything seriously other than your own deluded illusions that you came from apes. I bid you apes farewell.

I wonder how many ape like responses I'll get to this message, full of more barbaric replies and witty come backs rather than actual proof. It seems that evolution is no longer a scientific study but rather a new religion.

 

[Natro]

LOL you prove God exist by asking questions. LOL!! Why is the sky blue? Well its a faries magical work? Proof you ask? Why does water fall? what makes electrons move in random directions? What makes monkeys fly our of my bum? All of this is.....

 

[armed2010]

If we evolved from ape like creatures then what ape like creature would this be? Is it now extinct? And if so then where is the evidence that it existed in the first place? Simple comparison will not wrok because it can work in reverse. I could point out that chimpanzees and orangutans are similar and could have evolved from gorillas which is completly oppositie of humans.

My mother exist because we are of the same species. I wasn't born of an ape. This is one of the "holes" that I'm concerned about. If humans evolved then where is the proof that we have changed in the slightest way since history had started to record? And don't bother telling me that it takes millions of years to "evolve", even if that were true there would still be evidence of evolution as of today.

How can I prove that God exists? Thats simple enough, how does the universe stay togther? Why doesn't everything get sucked into a blackhole? Why does the moon orbit earth without falling from the sky? Because a higher intelligence is at work. Bible prophecies have become true when they were made almost 2000 years ago so why do they now come true unless a higher intelligence is at work?

As I preview my post I notice more and more nonsense erupting without anymore proof. Thank you all for proving my points. Since your all dead set on having a knock down brawl rather than an intelligent chat on creationism vs. evolutionism and the only thing you have proven to me is that none of you are willing to look or take anything seriously other than your own deluded illusions that you came from apes. I bid you apes farewell.

I wonder how many ape like responses I'll get to this message, full of more barbaric replies and witty come backs rather than actual proof. It seems that evolution is no longer a scientific study but rather a new religion.

 

[revolutio]

My mother exist because we are of the same species. I wasn't born of an ape. This is one of the "holes" that I'm concerned about.

You dug it yourself.

Your mother, you, and indeed every human being is an ape. Also your premise that a parent cannot bear children that are not of the same species is incorrect. There are many many cases of interspecies breeding. Though the vast majority of species are incompatible with one another, there are some that can reproduce and give birth to fertile offspring. Horses and donkeys can breed but the offspring is sterile.

Methinks your problem starts with a belief in a rigid definition of species. Scientists are constantly disagreeing over what constitutes something being a different species. Gorillas for instance are placed at having anywhere from 2 to 6 different species.

 

[USincognito]

Napoleon,

Let me introduce you to an acronym - PRATT. It means "previously refuted a thousand times." Now I'm fairly new to this board myself, but I've been in the Creationism/Evolution trenches IRL and on-line for about 8 years. Your first response to me "why are there still apes" shows a complete ignorance of evolutionary theory, biology and to a lesser extent logic. It's a PRATT that should be a PRAMT. No one with any familiarity with the topic would actually use it.

That's why you're getting the responses you have been.

I also noticed that you didn't tell me where on the lineup of skulls you would divide between human and ape? Why is that?

Your bold opening post was quite a gambit, but one that you will fail with if you get frustrated from rolleyes and less than responses to PRATTs. I do hope you won't take your ball and leave as you really have a lot to learn about evolution before you go to battle with it. If you don't even have the basics covered you can expect more of the same responses.

 

[Arikay]

3 posts, and already insulted so many people.

If you would like to have an inteligent conversation, lets start, if not, please stop trolling.


1) Can you give us a basic definition of the theory of evolution?

2) If god created the earth, should we not also listen to what it says?

3) When the bible says that Rome taxed the entire world, do you believe the native americans were also taxed?

4) How would you rate your understanding of the science you want to discuss?

Just a few questions to help start an inteligent conversation. If you were actually serious about that part.

If we evolved from ape like creatures then what ape like creature would this be? Is it now extinct? And if so then where is the evidence that it existed in the first place? Simple comparison will not wrok because it can work in reverse. I could point out that chimpanzees and orangutans are similar and could have evolved from gorillas which is completly oppositie of humans.

My mother exist because we are of the same species. I wasn't born of an ape. This is one of the "holes" that I'm concerned about. If humans evolved then where is the proof that we have changed in the slightest way since history had started to record? And don't bother telling me that it takes millions of years to "evolve", even if that were true there would still be evidence of evolution as of today.

How can I prove that God exists? Thats simple enough, how does the universe stay togther? Why doesn't everything get sucked into a blackhole? Why does the moon orbit earth without falling from the sky? Because a higher intelligence is at work. Bible prophecies have become true when they were made almost 2000 years ago so why do they now come true unless a higher intelligence is at work?

As I preview my post I notice more and more nonsense erupting without anymore proof. Thank you all for proving my points. Since your all dead set on having a knock down brawl rather than an intelligent chat on creationism vs. evolutionism and the only thing you have proven to me is that none of you are willing to look or take anything seriously other than your own deluded illusions that you came from apes. I bid you apes farewell.

I wonder how many ape like responses I'll get to this message, full of more barbaric replies and witty come backs rather than actual proof. It seems that evolution is no longer a scientific study but rather a new religion.

 

[Napoleon]

I am serious about this topic, since most of you if not all believe that I am un-informed about evultion then please give me some kind of direction as to what you believe evolution is. Books, links, and any information of the such is more than welcome. So far I have only recieved insults and snide remarks and no proof.

 

[USincognito]

Here's a good place to start.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html
And please do answer Arikay's questions if you have time.

 

[Napoleon]

Thank you and I will answer all his questions in due time.

 

[Arikay]

An answer to the questions would be nice, it helps us understand where you are coming from.

Edit:nevermind. bah, another reason why not to use the quick response thingy.

 

[LorentzHA]

I'm here to quote the bible.... 1. I will only use the bible and NO links to other sites

2. Use your brain. Give examples/theories of your own.

Typical.

 

[LorentzHA]

I am serious about this topic, since most of you if not all believe that I am un-informed about evultion then please give me some kind of direction as to what you believe evolution is. Books, links, and any information of the such is more than welcome. So far I have only recieved insults and snide remarks and no proof.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi Enter "evolution" as your search term. You will find over 120,000 articles on evolution. And this is just in a medical database going back only to 1965. Start reading the abstracts.

 

[Aggie]

How can I prove that God exists? Thats simple enough, how does the universe stay togther? Why doesn't everything get sucked into a blackhole? Why does the moon orbit earth without falling from the sky? Because a higher intelligence is at work.

The laws of physics themselves are quite sufficient for this. The range of the gravity of any object is limited, so it only makes a difference for objects within a certain proximity to it. Even a black hole that the solar system was within range of, such as the supermassive black hole that might exist at the center of the Milky Way galaxy, would probably pull on the sun and its planets so weakly that it would not be able to affect us noticeably for another several billion years. By that time, humans will be long gone.

As for the moon, it has its own momentum to counterract the effects of earth's gravity. It's in ORBIT--haven't you heard that term before? This is pretty basic physics, and high school courses have their own name for the aspect of momentum that pulls outward on an object moving in circles--centrifugal force.

This does not answer the question of who invented these laws. God MIGHT have been responsible for creating THEM, but it's not something that anyone can prove.

Evolution HAS been observed, as much as one would expect humans to be ABLE to observe it in the 150 or so years that we've been looking for it. If you still intend to refuse to look at anything from another website, you can just take our word for it; otherwise you can read about some examples of this here: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

Finally, if you expect a group to disappear once another group splits off from it, you must understand evolution even less than most of the creationists here. Consider dogs being bred from wolves, which is something humans did in the past 10,000 years. They took a small group of wolves, and only bred the ones that had the traits the humans desired. These traits were passed on to their offspring, in some of whom the traits were even stronger... but none of this caused wolves to stop existing. It was only a small group of them that were selectively bred to produce dogs, and all of the world's other wolves, which humans did not selectively breed, remain largely unchanged.

 

[LorentzHA]

Why does the moon orbit earth without falling from the sky

falling from the sky??? ah, ha. ha, ah, ahaaaaa, haaaaaaaaaaaa

 

[USincognito]

Hey, come on now. Napoleon seems (at least thus far) to be open minded enough to do something most creation apologists won't do and that's read scientific materials and give what his thoughts are on the basics of evolution so they can be guaged against what the literature actually says.

Can we cut him a little slack on malapropisms?

"Stealing pickinick baskets is one third opportunity, one third stealth and one half luck" - Yogi Beara

 

[Routerider]

falling from the sky??? ah, ha. ha, ah, ahaaaaa, haaaaaaaaaaaa

I nearly choked on my beer reading this, I didn't catch it the first time around, I only caught it from your response...God I love this place.

 

[Jet Black]

If we evolved from ape like creatures then what ape like creature would this be? Is it now extinct? And if so then where is the evidence that it existed in the first place? Simple comparison will not wrok because it can work in reverse. I could point out that chimpanzees and orangutans are similar and could have evolved from gorillas which is completly oppositie of humans.

an early homonid of course. we have fossils and stuff like that, we also have alot of molecular remnants, such as the banding patterns in human chromosome 2. Going into this in length would be a fabulous waste of my time, because there is already an excellent post here. Incidentally he onlz shows human chromosome 2 there, if you look up the entire karotype, that is even more convincing.

My mother exist because we are of the same species. I wasn't born of an ape.

your mother isn't an ape because the ape line branched off the homonid line. Your mother is a primate though

This is one of the "holes" that I'm concerned about. If humans evolved then where is the proof that we have changed in the slightest way since history had started to record? And don't bother telling me that it takes millions of years to "evolve", even if that were true there would still be evidence of evolution as of today.

in 6000 years? what are the selective pressures on humans that would cause them to evolve at any noticeable rate? humans are a bad example because of this. As a result of our brain size and tool using abilities, we tend to alter the environment to suit us, and so environmental presures are alot less. What kind of evidence are you looking for? variation between humans? because that exists, and it is pretty obvious, look at the different races, groups living in the himalayas and so on.

How can I prove that God exists? Thats simple enough, how does the universe stay togther? Why doesn't everything get sucked into a blackhole? Why does the moon orbit earth without falling from the sky? Because a higher intelligence is at work.

That is about the worst proof ever. It is a shining beacon of a non-sequitur so bright that it could dazzle people a continent away.

Bible prophecies have become true when they were made almost 2000 years ago so why do they now come true unless a higher intelligence is at work?

this is apologetics, however there are a number of people who would disagree with this for several educated reasons.

I wonder how many ape like responses I'll get to this message, full of more barbaric replies and witty come backs rather than actual proof. It seems that evolution is no longer a scientific study but rather a new religion.

please look at the thread I posted. Do HERVs, morphology, transposons, chromosome banding patterns, merging and telomere/centromere patternings, as well as extensive fossil evidence count as proof enough for you, and if not, why not?

 

[Aggie]

I nearly choked on my beer reading this, I didn't catch it the first time around, I only caught it from your response...God I love this place.

I find it rather frustrating. It's a lot like the Christian school I went to for 11th grade, except that of the THREE people who believed evolution in the school of about 700, I was the only one whose belief in this are was discovered. The other two kept their belief secret, especially after seeing what happened to me.

I didn't have a problem with arguing with creationists about this, but I DID have a problem with the 797 creationists in the school never being willing to talk to me about anything else, and using the same arguments over and over again that I had refuted dozens of times already. Sometimes I didn't get a chance to eat lunch, and I was only able to sleep about 2 hours a night.

They claim that the physical evidence supports them, but then they never care enough about it to pay attention to it. Don't they care whether what they believe is true? And if so, why aren't they making an effort to find out whether it is or not?

At least here, I'm not all alone with this the way I was then.

 

[Arikay]

Just thought I would point out, that if god is the only reason the moon stays up in the sky, then god must also be the only reason why the satelites that transmit the playboy and other x rated channels stay in the sky. Maybe he is trying to tell us something.

 

[Napoleon]

Sorry for the late reply but I had some stuff to look up thanks to USincognito. So first I'll answer the four questions then post what I've found on my own with the site provided.

Questions asked by Arikay.
1) Can you give us a basic definition of the theory of evolution?

From what I've learned in school and some research of my own, it's basically the theory that a small change in a species can change the way they act and/or look. However this small change I had viewed "As do some other creationist" as adaptation. With adaptation if the conditions are right for a long period of time, then the species will change to adapt to it's environment. Adaptation can happen in a hundered years where evolution takes millions of years.

2) If god created the earth, should we not also listen to what it says?

Depends on how you look at it. If you take the current translations of the bible then the answer would be No. There have been mis-translations when men had tried to translate the bible from Hebrew and Greek text. Some mis-translations also go as far as to call God a perverse iniquity. The name Jehovah is derived from the Hebrew tetragramation of YHWH which later had vowels added and was based off of the hebrew words "Yah" and "hovah" which is "God" and "perverse". Now if I believed what was translated then I would call God a pervert everytime I pray to him. Don't take anyones word over anything when it comes to a subject this important. Do your own research and make your own conclusions based off of the evidence, which is what I'm doing here with evolution.

3) When the bible says that Rome taxed the entire world, do you believe the native americans were also taxed?

Yes. For they were still on the continent's that Rome had power over. Where is the evidence that Native Americans had come over here before?

4) How would you rate your understanding of the science you want to discuss?
Honestly probably a 2 or 3. "Upgraded today with the link USincognito provided" But that doesn't mean that I can't disprove any of it. Science is a "faith based" skill as well. A theory is thought of and then evidence is brought up to try and prove the theory. Christians find it easier to believe in God by the same leap of faith as the Holy Spirit reveals many things once one has taken that leap of faith. Science does the same thing but in reverse.

-------[EOQ]-------

In repsonse that I won't use any links, please provide a reference where I have posted a link. I never stated that I would use a link in that way. This was in part because of other people who are using other sites such as Kent Hovind's Creation Science Evangelism, or other Christian sites to help their argument. I will not do this as I will study everything posted and come up with my own conclusions with why and how I came up with that conclusion. I can think for myself and I don't need or want to go by what others have stated. I have a brain and know how to use it. Is that wrong to put the work and effort into somthing I believe in? Or do you truely want to have another mindless link post debate on who has the better link?

In response to the Moons orbit, who controls the orbit of the moon? Satelites and space stations have guidence systems to keep them in orbit. Without that they would fall to earth or float through space. The moons and planets that orbit around our star while orbiting through our galaxy around a black hole would take a mathmatical genius to pull off such a feat. If something called "Orbit" keeps things from falling to earth then could you explain how "Orbit" works?

In response to the existence of God. I really can't give you any evidence since it's a theory thats been proven to true Christians by Holy Spirit. This knowledge has been closed to anyone who doesn't believe in Christ and this has been stated in the bible. Heres the quote from the bible but I highly doubt anyone in here will look. However out of respect since I am looking at your scientifical evidence, I ask that you at least read this quote to help keep up with this debate.

Luke 11:29
As the crowds increased, Jesus said, "This is a wicked generation. It asks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.

Jet Black :: Thank you for the link but it didn't prove anything factual. There are similarities between humans and primates but that doesn't make us the same species. The human chromosome is signifcantly longer than any of the primates chromosome and it takes 2 primate chromosomes to make a similar match. The article is compeling and can convince anyone not willing to make the connection of this fact. When it comes to my parents descending from a primate line that split off at some point in time, I find this hard to believe. Mainly because of what I already know. Recently a horse had mated with a zebra and a striped horse had been born. But the horse and zebra are from the same species. This is the same as if a caucasian female had mated with an african american. They would produce another human of different color and size however it is the same specie so it is possible. Humans living in the himalayas who have changed in skills and apperence is part of adaptation, not evolution. It didn't take millions of years for their change to take place. If you have to lift something heavy over a period of time you become strong and soon it becomes easy. Your body would adapt to the situation and change to help you complete this task. If you had a child and taught them how to do the same chore then they would become stronger than you because they had to do this task from when they were born. This isn't evolving because if the child at any time decided to stop then the muscles would break down and become weaker, his child could then becomes as weak as you before having to lift something heavy. This is the difference between adaptation and evolution. Evolution is permanent.

Aggie :: Sorry to hear you had a hard time in high school, however I'm not trying to not look at facts and go off of my own beliefs. I'm looking for the truth and willing to admit if I'm right or wrong but the trick is proving me wrong. As you can see here I'm all alone in this debate because I won't go off of what other Christians have stated, in fact I've probably offended a couple of them with my open views. But at least I'm willing to look instead of taking someones word for it.

Now onto what I came up with and yes I've been sitting in front my PC doing some reading since my last post. I needed to make some comparisons on my own when it comes to Darwins theories and human evolution. The theory as all of you already know is Humans have evolved from a line of primates from millions of years ago. Scientist/geologist have found what they believe is evidence of this occurance. In the picture found at talkorigins.org I noticed that the main focus is on the skull so I'll start there. I encourage anyone who believes in evolutionism that you make the some comparisons instead of just accepting what sounds right in someone elses article. If you haven't made the comparison yourself then how do you know that what you believe in is true?

Images are from a goverment funded site that is trying to provide a Digital Library for the public and is provided by the Division of Undergraduate Education of the National Science Foundation. Project name is eSkeletons.

Human Skull
wnt.utexas.edu/~eskeletons/human/cranium/cranv.jpg

Chimpanzee Skull
wnt.utexas.edu/~eskeletons/pan/cranium/craniumv.jpg

I can see a small similarity between the two but not enough to say one evolved from the other. First off all the argument is that man evolved and his brain got bigger. This is why we can use tools and build cities, communicate with each other and over come language barriers.

The problem I have with this is the over bite that the chimpanzee has. It isn't sunken in compared to the human skull. Chimpanzees and Humans eat the same foods such as fruits, vegitables, and meets. Why did this part have to change? I'm not talking about the teeth but the actual top jaw line itself. If the brain evolved into a bigger thinking organ but we ate the same food groups, then why did this change? You can see a better example in these pix.

Human Skull Side view
wnt.utexas.edu/~eskeletons/human/cranium/cranl.jpg

Chimpanzee Skull Side View
wnt.utexas.edu/~eskeletons/pan/cranium/craniuml.jpg

See how much further the top jaw line protrudes out? The Human canine tooth is visable but significantly smaller that the chimpanzees canine. Again if we had similar diets then why would this change? It can't be because we became more civilized and started to build cities for we still eat meat. So why have these gotten smaller? The argument that we cook our food isn't good enough since raw meat is very soft and cooking it can actually make it tougher to eat. If you use this argument then Human canines should be bigger and sharper to eat meat. The only other argument that I can think of {At least to be fair} is the canines were used for killing and since Humans used tools at some point in time then the need to kill with canines diminished and the canines shrank over time. However this then brings me back to the point of cooking food and needing the bigger canines to eat tougher food.

I have more comparisons but I feel they are irrelavant for now since the skull issue has just been addressed. Anyhoo like I said, I'm more than willing to debate this issue but again, any sarcastic posts will not get a reply back. I'm here to have a serious discussion about Evolutionism vs Creationism. If I offend anyone then I appologize now, also if I miss a point then please point it out since I may over look it with more than 7 replies within an hour.

I'm going to bed but I look forward to any replies tomorrow.