Prove it or remove it challenge

[sfs]

The purpose of the universe is a subject for a different thread, but I do disagree with your assertion that it has no purpose.

I have never asserted that the universe has no purpose.

Why would you say that non-coding DNA is not there in first life? I would cite that as an assumption, and probably a wrong assumption, based on your world view. An instance of the importance of understanding the first cause.

Do you have any evidence that first life had no non-coding DNA?

Shouldn't you have waited for the answer to your question before deciding that my statement was a wrong assumption?

I didn't say that the first life had no non-coding DNA. I said that the non-coding DNA we see today wasn't there. That's mostly because all early life -- in fact, life for most of the history of Earth -- consisted of bacteria, which have small, compact genomes with very little noncoding DNA. But it's also because noncoding DNA gets quite thoroughly replaced by mutation on a time scale of hundreds of millions of years. ETA: Also, we know where most of the noncoding DNA comes from: transposable elements, most of which are not present in bacteria.

 

[USincognito]

Why would you say that non-coding DNA is not there in first life? I would cite that as an assumption, and probably a wrong assumption, based on your world view. An instance of the importance of understanding the first cause.

Wow. That is some weapons grade irony.

 

[USincognito]

Interpretation of findings: let's say you find significant stretches of non-coding DNA. ITS easy to assume and make the attribution that by naturalist prediction those stretches are junk. The trash of the process.

On the other hand, if you believe in fiat of God, you make a very different conclusion, that there is a purpose for the non-coding DNA that we have yet to uncover. We should therefore redouble our efforts to figure it out because it may unlock the secrets to a cure for cancers, or muscular distrophy or even aging.

Just an enigmatically succinct point I'll have to get back to later, but:
function of DNA < genetics < the study of evolution < the theory of evolution.

 

[Paterfamilia]

Wow. That is some weapons grade irony.

A rapier! Thy wit... Ha ha

 

[Hoghead1]

The only schools I know of, Pater, that would disqualify you because of your stance on evolution happen to be more than one Bible college which will state up front on the faculty application that they will not accept anyone who believes in evolution and that you need to sign oath on the application that you do not. Those are the only schools.

 

[Paterfamilia]

The only schools I know of, Pater, that would disqualify you because of your stance on evolution happen to be more than one Bible college which will state up front on the faculty application that they will not accept anyone who believes in evolution and that you need to sign oath on the application that you do not. Those are the only schools.

I would say that the opposite is probably true for biology departments in secular colleges. Try getting hired or especially tenured if you reject evolution.

 

[HitchSlap]

I would say that the opposite is probably true for biology departments in secular colleges. Try getting hired or especially tenured if you reject evolution.

What's wrong with not offering a job to an unqualified applicant?

 

[digitalgoth]

I would say that the opposite is probably true for biology departments in secular colleges. Try getting hired or especially tenured if you reject evolution.

Because you've tried it? Usually colleges tend to hire more based on your body of work, or your social connections, than what your belief system is, in fact, I think there's some laws requiring them not to base hiring on your belief system, just your credentials.

So certainly, if you go into an interview blaring your horn about jeebus coming at the breaking of the 7th seal, that might stand out in an interview or body of work.

 

[Hoghead1]

Pater, you are only asked to answer the questions to see if you have any knowledge of evolution, as this is a central teaching in mainstream science. That is only fair. At no point, do they ask you if you believe in it or not. If a candidate who believed in evolution or otherwise could not answer the questions, that would be proof of they are out of touch with mainstream science and therefore have a deficiency in their scientific education.

 

[USincognito]

A rapier! Thy wit... Ha ha

This is friendly advice which you make take or leave. Try spending more time paying attention to the people with whom you are engaged in discussion and little details like their profiles and less trying to be clever.

 

[Hoghead1]

OK, Pater, you experienced what you said you did. However, that is not evidence that you had to sign some sort of oath or state your belief on the matter. Incidentally, how did the test go for you? Did you get into med. school? Just curious. For the most part, colleges and universities, in hiring faculty, don't give a hoot what you believe about evolution, just how well you fit the department's needs. Actually, if you were really into creation science and had done a solid dissertation on it, you might be a prime candidate for hiring, depending on the needs of a particular department. Some departments would be real impressed, as they are interested in providing instructions in religions of the Americans. More than one professor is valued for being an expert in fields such as creation science. There is a sociology professor I ran into online who is doing a detailed study of online creation-science sites. He is actually on a major grant to do this.

 

[bhsmte]

Pater, you are only asked to answer the questions to see if you have any knowledge of evolution, as this is a central teaching in mainstream science. That is only fair. At no point, do they ask you if you believe in it or not. If a candidate who believed in evolution or otherwise could not answer the questions, that would be proof of they are out of touch with mainstream science and therefore have a deficiency in their scientific education.

That makes, way too much sense!

 

[Hoghead1]

I think it would depend a lot of what niche the biology department was looking for you to fill. I sat through many lectures on biology that never came near addressing evolution. Also, I am wondering how likely is the scenario you describe. You would have to have a doctorate in biology, which requires you to do original research, and publications are always a plus. Since creation-science does not follow the scientific method, it id doubtful anyone would attempt to undertake a dissertation based on creation-science methodology in the first place.

 

[Paterfamilia]

OK, Pater, you experienced what you said you did. However, that is not evidence that you had to sign some sort of oath or state your belief on the matter. Incidentally, how did the test go for you? Did you get into med. school? Just curious. For the most part, colleges and universities, in hiring faculty, don't give a hoot what you believe about evolution, just how well you fit the department's needs. Actually, if you were really into creation science and had done a solid dissertation on it, you might be a prime candidate for hiring, depending on the needs of a particular department. Some departments would be real impressed, as they are interested in providing instructions in religions of the Americans. More than one professor is valued for being an expert in fields such as creation science. There is a sociology professor I ran into online who is doing a detailed study of online creation-science sites. He is actually on a major grant to do this.

So you're in an interview and everything is going along fine, and the director of admissions asks the question, almost as an afterthought while she polishes up her notes, "what do you think about evolution? The theory..."

Is there a right answer?

Testing went fine. I ended up going a different direction anyway. This was back in the 80's and the outlook was all managed care, HMOs etc, and I had a young family and it seemed like a huge investment only to end up working for the government at a salary.

Also, I have this thing (all my life) where it almost seems like I have early onset Alzheimer's. I have nightmares about leaving one of my kids locked up in a walkin freezer, and I'm 6 hours away. If it's possible for me to kill somebody, I probably would. So I'm not a doctor and I don't fly airplanes.

I'm sure we couldn't make blanket statements about what a particular biology department is going today. Ask Michael Behe if he is glad to be already tenured. The fact that some have lost their jobs and some have been denied tenure because they reject evolution is undeniable.

 

[Paterfamilia]

This is friendly advice which you make take or leave. Try spending more time paying attention to the people with whom you are engaged in discussion and little details like their profiles and less trying to be clever.

I appreciate your advice.

I believe that as people, we can have a discussion or even a debate that is cordial and fair to everyone. There is no reason at all that folks with totally opposite world views can't be friends, or at least friendly.

I also feel that it's only good manners to respond to a person who has quoted one of my posts and given their opinion on it, as I did to you.

All that being said, let's face it, we have chosen to spend some of our spare time on the internet arguing. Right? So we have opposing viewpoints. Friendly jabs are just that. Calling someone to account is just that as well. Strident disagreement is par for the course. I never bear anyone ill will and all of my ha ha's are genuine. Why not have a little fun while we are here?

I am what I am and if you don't think I'm funny that's fine. I'm going to keep doing what I do if it's all the same to you.

 

[Hoghead1]

Oh, c'mon, Pater. Do you really know of any admissions counselors who make it a point of inquiring into your views on evolution? Can you even give me one example? The situation you propose is ridiculous. Next, you bring up about faculty being fired over their stance on evolution. Can you cite some examples? And if some university did do that, what does that have to do with evolution? If your trying to make it look like evolution is some kind of prejudice forced on faculty and therefore invalid, you would have to say the same exact thing about Christian Bible colleges that promote creation science and out rightly state they will not hire anyone into evolution.

 

[HitchSlap]

I'm sure we couldn't make blanket statements about what a particular biology department is going today. Ask Michael Behe if he is glad to be already tenured. The fact that some have lost their jobs and some have been denied tenure because they reject evolution is undeniable.

This happens much less than you might think. If you're basing your opinion on that hack-job "Expelled," I wouldn't, as they played loose and fast with the "facts."


http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/six-things-ben-stein-doesnt-want-you-to-know/
http://austringer.net/wp/index.php/...t-expelled-ben-stein-contradicts-mark-mathis/
https://badidea.wordpress.com/2008/...aination-for-anti-evolutionary-film-expelled/
http://expelledexposed.drupalgardens.com/background/interview-tactics

 

[Paterfamilia]

It wasn't an admission counselor, it was the dean of admissions, and she was talking to me. I thought it was pretty ridiculous too.

Yeah I can give examples - take a look at "Expelled No Intelligence Allowed"

And yeah I would say the same thing about the bible college, which is basically nothing. I honestly don't know what to think about evolution on the whole.

It certainly has some validity. But I just don't see the robust force of it necessary to produce all this diversity on its own.

 

[Paterfamilia]

This happens much less than you might think. If you're basing your opinion on that hack-job "Expelled," I wouldn't, as they played loose and fast with the "facts."


http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/six-things-ben-stein-doesnt-want-you-to-know/
http://austringer.net/wp/index.php/...t-expelled-ben-stein-contradicts-mark-mathis/
https://badidea.wordpress.com/2008/...aination-for-anti-evolutionary-film-expelled/
http://expelledexposed.drupalgardens.com/background/interview-tactics

Ha ha beat me to it hitch! And really, I would have expected a lot more criticism than it got.

 

[HitchSlap]

It certainly has some validity. But I just don't see the robust force of it necessary to produce all this diversity on its own.

I recommend you pick up Coyne's book, "Why Evolution Is True." Might help to answer some of the "robustness" questions you might have.