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FutureAndAHope

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I think the OP is either not reading any of the links posted, or is intentionally obtuse. There are none so blind as those who will not see.

I have not read every link. I read most of them. including watching the video on the case for evolution. I have also been reading other sites both from evolutionists, and from creationists.

You have to understand I am a Christian, who has had a lot of spiritual encounters with God. So I am coming from the direction of knowing God exists. This fact makes me highly skeptical of evolution and I would need a lot of facts before I would believe.

So far after reading both creationist and evolutionist sites, these are my observations:

The evolutionist camp makes some points which could be true. Note I say could. There are not enough hard facts from that side to prove evolution. It is wrong in my opinion to say there is proof. A handful of fossils said to be whales, is not evidence. They share some, very minor similarities, but these simulaties are not proof. There is a lot of personal bias needed to say it proves it.

The creationist camp points out the fact that the fossils also have many differences. And sate that the bones in modern whales are related to reproduction, and differ in females and males.

SO what is my conclusion, it is there is not enough evidence one way or the other it is just a cat fight. For me having had a lot of encounters with God, I know God tells the truth, so I trust him.

You would need a lot more evidence than what you have provided to convince me evolution is true.
 
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Armoured

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I'm a Christian. This has never once conflicted with my acceptance of evolutionary theory, nor vice versa. The idea that the two are somehow in conflict is false.
 
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RedPonyDriver

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Ok...#1. you are implying that if one understands and accepts the science behind evolution then they aren't a Christian.

2. You are putting yourself on a pedestal over everyone else by saying you've had a lot of spiritual encounters (implying that the rest of us haven't)

3. The implication of "personal bias" against thousands of paleontologists, geneticists, biologists is again putting yourself on a pedestal over these learned people (pride)

You are showing your pride and arrogance here....be very careful with that...
 
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Hoghead1

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Arguing on the basis of your alleged encounters with God, Future, is totally bogus in any serious theological discussion. It also seems arrogant. Apparently, you have some monopoly on God that the rest of us lack. Also, what evidence can you put on the table that you have had any real personal encounter with God? That kind of claim has also been made by every lunatic in the book.
 
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The Cadet

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All of the things you have mentioned can be the result of downward, or change in existing organisms (well formed features loosing function).
So what? Evolution doesn't just add new features. It also removes superfluous or unnecessary ones. You asked for examples of creatures with useless appendages, and I offered them. What, do you think we'd expect evolution to provide a "useless" half a wing? Why? Creatures who expend resources on such things would typically have pretty strong selection pressures against them. That's not how evolution works. You wouldn't expect such "useless" appendages. You seem to not have a very strong understanding of the theory in the first place.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Hoghead1: I posted a link earlier that list one such encounter ... if you missed it it was http://www.everybodymattersministry.com

But like I said I know there is a God, so why would I doubt creation. I need proof and I am sorry if I offend you but you have not provided me with enough evidence. I can not believe a thing just because you say it, I must research it, understand it before I will believe.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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You are saying that evolution is so perfect that it would eliminate all evidence of gradual change. What so wings just majically appear, with no transitions. No half grown wings? nearly developed wings. Evolutionists have provided one winged dinosaur and say "See proof" ... it's not close to proof, there must be transitions of developing features. No fully functional ones. And these are needed for all stages of evolution, but where are all these millions of examples?
 
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DogmaHunter

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That is what makes the Bible different. The Bible can be confirmed by Science to be a fact.

No, it can not.

The Bible can be confirmed to be accurate and true and the Bible contains no errors.

That is ridiculously false as well.
 
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DogmaHunter

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JonFromMinnesota

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You have to understand I am a Christian, who has had a lot of spiritual encounters with God. So I am coming from the direction of knowing God exists.

Argument from personal experience is a logical fallacy. That is irrelevant when discussing evolution. There are many Christians who accept the theory of evolution. Many of them on this forum and participating in this thread.

I would need a lot of facts before I would believe.

Evolution is not a belief. It's a verifiable fact. You either understand it or you don't. If there is something you don't understand, you can ask questions. There are many people that populate the evolution section of this forum, some that have formal training in the relevant fields of study that would be happy to answer your questions. There is a poster that goes by the name 'sfs' who I think works in research and is also a Christian. However, I haven't seen him around in a while.

It is wrong in my opinion to say there is proof.

Science doesn't try to prove anything. That is what math does. However, there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that comes from several independent lines of study that all come to the same, logical conclusion.

A handful of fossils said to be whales, is not evidence. They share some, very minor similarities, but these simulaties are not proof.

You're right that it's not proof but that is because science doesn't try to prove things. You are, however, wrong that it isn't evidence. Evolution predicts a nested hierarchy of traits and that is exactly what we see in the fossil record and in genetics. Two independent lines of study that reach the same conclusion. Proving beyond a reasonable doubt is better phrasing in my opinion.

SO what is my conclusion, it is there is not enough evidence one way or the other it is just a cat fight.

99.9% of practicing biologists would disagree with you.

For me having had a lot of encounters with God, I know God tells the truth, so I trust him.

Again, argument from personal experience is a logical fallacy. Second, if God exists, how do you know evolution isn't how he creates? I'm not a Christian, so this question is probably better discussed with a Christian here who subscribes to theistic evolution. There are plenty of them.

You would need a lot more evidence than what you have provided to convince me evolution is true.

There is an abundance of it. Go to google scholar and type in "evolution" and you'll get over 4 million results. Or you can ask anyone here a question. I think the fossil record is getting tiresome to talk about as you keep moving the goal posts. Care to move on to a different line of study?
 
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RedPonyDriver

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To the OP...you keep moving the goal posts and trying to argue from personal experience where others are offering evidence, scientific papers, explanations, yet you again turn your nose up at them and keep saying "my experience". It doesn't work that way. Your experience means nothing if it cannot be replicated under stringent test conditions.

For example, I could say it rained today...and that's fine. HOWEVER, unless other people saw the rain, if the rain was verified by radar, then it didn't happen from a scientific point of view.

Saying the bible is true is a circular argument. The bible is true because the bible says its true is not a valid argument for the truth of scripture. Yes, there have been archeological finds that seem to validate some of what's in the bible, but that doesn't PROVE the bible. Faith is faith and I have plenty, have had my own personal encounters with God, etc...however, I can't use those things to "prove" anything. It's called anecdotal evidence. Yes, those experiences were and are very real to me, however, they cannot be quantified or duplicated under controlled circumstances...so they cannot be "proven" as understood in the scientific community.

So...stop moving the goal posts, take a GOOD look at what you've been presented and quit talking about "your experiences" and disparaging other Christians here.
 
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DogmaHunter

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As for the long running request for what type of fossil do I want you to find. Well I have been thinking. Evolution is supposedly random, random mutations creating new species.

Mutation is random, evolution however is not.
Natural Selection is the opposite of random.


What there should be in the fossil record is a lot of creatures with useless features, appendages.

You don't need to fossil record for that. You can just look at extant species for such "useless" features that were once important but not anymore today. Next to that, we also have "repurposed" features - parts that used to be responsible for something else then it is today. And lastly, we also have things that are sub-optimal, because that which causes it to be sub-optimal (and even straight up problematic at times) was a better tradeoff. Here are some examples:

- eyes in moles: they have them, but they don't work anymore. A thick layer of skin covers their non-functioning eyeballs. This is because they started living underground. They required less and less use of their eyes, to the point where their eyes were just a hindrance. When dirt gets in it, they can get infected, for example.

- human teeth: our mouth used to be a lot bigger. But then our brains became bigger, so something had to get smaller. That would be our mouth. Today, our mouth is too small for all our teeth, which is why most people have to have their "wisdom teeth" removed, as it tends to hurt a lot

- human spine: our spine evolved to walk on all fours. It did not evolve for bipedalism. Sure, it has gone through rather big modifications over the generations to enable / facilitate bipedalism, but it's far from optimal. Which is why most people are confronted with lower back pains at some point in their lives.

See, evolution is always about a tradeoff. For example, suppose a mutation that increases bone density. Perhaps that this would be beneficial for a certain species as it helps them to survive better in their habitat. Perhaps it is a mountainous region with a lot of loose rocks, which causes individuals to fall a lot. Better bone density might help with less leg breaking. But adding more density to bones requires additional resources to be spend on it. Resources that can then no longer be spend on other things... Or the organism might perhaps have to eat more, which would put more pressure on the hunt, etc.

Evolution is always a tradeoff. There is always a cost one way or the other.

What I have seen so far is creatures that are all fully developed

Off course, what else? Every creature is a full creature. What did you expect? Half organisms?

Bird ancestors didn't start to develop wings for the purpose of flying. It's not like that species had to wait for a few million years before its wing was fully developed so that it could finally use it... It doesn't work that way.

Every single stage of it was usefull for that specific species one way or the other.
There are a LOT of examples alive today of "wings" that exhibit these things. A LOT of creature have "wings" but don't fly. Pinguins for example. Some use it for heat, some use it for hunting purposes, some use it to attract mates, others use it for maintaining body heat,...

The same with the eye.
It's not like you either have to have "no eye" or a "fully developed" eye allowing for 3d hd vision.

Just a few photosensitive cells tell the difference between light and dark. Wich is better then not being able to tell the difference, if sunlight is important.
A few of those cells tucked away in a small cavity gives you the ability to recognise the direction where the light is coming from. As well as detecting movement.

See, this is why you should actually first inform yourself on the stuff you want to argue against. Because clearly, you have no clue what evolution theory is all about...
 
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The Cadet

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You are saying that evolution is so perfect that it would eliminate all evidence of gradual change.

No, I'm saying that if you expect an organism to evolve via first producing a useless vestige, then gradually over multiple generations turning that vestige into something useful, then you're going to flunk Bio 101.

What so wings just majically appear, with no transitions. No half grown wings? nearly developed wings.

Actually, there are numerous hypotheses about how such wings could evolve.

And these are needed for all stages of evolution, but where are all these millions of examples?

Fossilization is rare and fossils are typically buried underground. You expect a degree of evidence which simply cannot be provided, and is also fully unwarranted.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Leg bones in a whale (was a leg, developed but now lost purpose (according to evolution)).

While losing legs, it gained a tail and body shape fit for life in the ocean.

Chicken teeth (would still have a purpose to hold food)

Chickens don't have teeth. They have inactive DNA remnants to build teeth.
Which is exactly what we would expect if the ancestors of chickens were animals with teeth.

Ostrich wings (still look quite good, maybe a feature, but you could if you like say it is a feature on the way out)

It is neither a feature on the way "out" nor is it one on the way "in".
An ostrich's wings aren't useless to an ostrich. As I said before, you need to let go of this idea that wings are just for flying. They aren't.

How is it that every feature that is show in animals had a purpose?

Because all those features are the result of natural selection...

Surely a truly random process could not develop bursts of amazing useful function.

Evolution is not a "truly random process".
As I said before: natural selection is the opposite of random.
 
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RedPonyDriver

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The basic theory of evolution (If I remember my biology classes from way back when) is species who developed GOOD mutations, lived long enough to reproduce, therefore passing that beneficial mutation to the next generation. Species who did not, died out.

Dinosaurs...big critters...died out at the Chixalub event. Why? They were too big and their habitat was destroyed. Tiny mammals had started evolving and survived the extinction event because they could survive the habitat destruction. Over the next 65 million years there were variations in the developing mammals, adapting to their changing habitat. A critter that lives in the desert is not going to have the same configuration as a critter who lives in a forest. Critters that lived near the sea would adapt to the sea, as that's where their food would come from...

You see the same thing today...certain human genetic mutations are not viable, and unfortunately, those fetuses die, usually in utero. Their mutations are not helpful and will not reproduce. go to www.thefetus.net to see examples of how badly human reproduction can go. There is plenty of evidence for mutations being carried through generations...did you know blue eyes are a genetic mutation? Red hair is a genetic mutation. Mendelian inheritance is fascinating. Mutations that cannot reproduce are not helpful. THAT's evolution.
 
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DogmaHunter

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You have to understand I am a Christian, who has had a lot of spiritual encounters with God. So I am coming from the direction of knowing God exists.

Evolution says absolutely nothing about gods. Not in the positive sense, not in the negative sense and not in the neutral sense.

God is not mentioned at all. Just like god is not mentioned in the theory of relativity, the theory of plate tectonics or in germ theory. Or any other theory.

Wheter or not you believe in a god or not is completely irrelevant to this topic.
The pope believes in god, and he has no problems with biology. So why do you continue to bring this up?

Biology is not "anti god". It rather seems more like you are just anti science.


This fact makes me highly skeptical of evolution and I would need a lot of facts before I would believe.

What you demonstrated in this thread is more like that no amount of facts would ever convince you.


But you are ignoring all the fossils AND the explanation of evolution for them. Whenever it gets to hard, you run to biased creationist sites and simply handwave all the evidence away. What's more, right IN the OP you flat out said that you will shut your mind to a large portion of the evidence, being genetics.

Well sorry, but you don't get to dictate how hard a science can be or what evidence is and isn't valid.

Find molecular biology and genetics to be a hard subject? Well, tough luck. But that doesn't mean that we all must ignore it, just because you are to lazy to inform yourself.

The creationist camp points out the fact that the fossils also have many differences.

The creationist camp are a bunch of liars and dishonest con-men.
Yea, I said it...

You would need a lot more evidence than what you have provided to convince me evolution is true.

No evidence would convince you, because you are not approaching this with intellectual honesty. You have already decided what you are going to believe and you need to stop pretending that anything will ever convince you that you might be wrong.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Please stop and think about what you just said. I am flunking bio 101 because I expect to see gradually developing features. Evolution requires vast amounts of time to develop a creature, evolution shows a bird dinosaur as proof of its self, yet where and I all again is the transitions. For the one year of that birds life there must have been a million more where it was slowly forming yet we have not even one such fossil. Admit it using the fossil record disproves evolution. You try to tell me it is because the record is incomplete yet we have millions of fossils surly statistically you would expect one such transition. Realistically millions. God made every one of those creatures that is why they are fully formed. Be honest don't lie in your heart the fossil record disproves evolution.
 
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Nithavela

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How about humans with tails? Would that satisfy you?
 
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RedPonyDriver

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You have repeatedly been told that fossilization is RARE. Genetic study is far more reliable when discussing evolution.

Now...how about apologizing to all of us you've called liars (see bolded in quote above). Humble yourself before those you have implied are not Christians. Humble yourself before the Lord for implying that you are a special snowflake that has had spiritual encounters and no one else gets to have them. You don't want to learn, you want to argue and imply you are somehow superior.

How about this...I live in the USA and I will fight tooth and nail to keep "creation science" out of schools. It's a religious belief and has NOTHING to do with legitimate scientific study or method. You want to believe in creationism, great...go for it while the rest of the world laughs behind your back or in your face. However, you do not have the right to push your (admittedly unscientific) beliefs on anyone else. You want to teach your kid creationism, then homeschool or send him to some fundamentalist Christian school where the rest of his education will also be substandard. You have no right to try to force your beliefs on the rest of a population.
 
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