Prove it or remove it challenge

[USincognito]

So? They identified the genes that make a bat wing.
Evolution is barely mentioned in the article.

Yeah, "barely mentioned". Well, except for the most important part, the conclusions:

Conclusions

Using genome-wide sequencing method we have identified many genes differentially expressed in the developing digits of the bat autopodia. Several of these genes are highly related to digit formation and thus likely play important roles in the development of bat wing. Our results provide robust candidate genes for future functional tests and molecular evolution comparison with other mammals to fully understand the mechanisms of wing formation and the evolution of bat flight.​

 

[-57]

The article is about the evolution of the wing of the bat. The article is about a specific event in evolution. How often does a paper that deals with the a single event in the history of the U.S. need to remind you that the topic fits under the category "The history of the U.S."?

No it's not.

 

[USincognito]

The article is about the evolution of the wing of the bat. The article is about a specific event in evolution. How often does a paper that deals with the a single event in the history of the U.S. need to remind you that the topic fits under the category "The history of the U.S."?

Maybe he wants a paper like this one (cited in the paper I linked to) that has the word evolution right in the title:
Look 57, it's got the word evolution in the title and appears 26 times in the body.

Now where will you move the goalposts?
http://genesdev.cshlp.org/content/22/2/121.long
Understanding of bat wing evolution takes flight

 

[-57]

Yeah, "barely mentioned". Well, except for the most important part, the conclusions:

Conclusions

Using genome-wide sequencing method we have identified many genes differentially expressed in the developing digits of the bat autopodia. Several of these genes are highly related to digit formation and thus likely play important roles in the development of bat wing. Our results provide robust candidate genes for future functional tests and molecular evolution comparison with other mammals to fully understand the mechanisms of wing formation and the evolution of bat flight.​

So they can compare them at a later date. OK??? Big deal.

 

[USincognito]

No it's not.

How do you know?

 

[-57]

Maybe he wants a paper like this one (cited in the paper I linked to) that has the word evolution right in the title:
Look 57, it's got the word evolution in the title and appears 26 times in the body.

Now where will you move the goalposts?
http://genesdev.cshlp.org/content/22/2/121.long
Understanding of bat wing evolution takes flight

So you switched articles on me.

 

[USincognito]

Perhaps the problem is people are presenting you with the "coloring book" level is because it appears you don't understand the basic science?

He needs to worry less about the "coloring book" of others and focus on one he needs to read himself.

 

[-57]

Maybe he wants a paper like this one (cited in the paper I linked to) that has the word evolution right in the title:
Look 57, it's got the word evolution in the title and appears 26 times in the body.

Now where will you move the goalposts?
http://genesdev.cshlp.org/content/22/2/121.long
Understanding of bat wing evolution takes flight

Yeah, great stuff from the switched article:
...the phenotypic effect in bats appears to be due to a gain of function for this enhancer since endogenous

Nice conclusion.

In fcat the article presents quite a complex process....that developed by chance?

An important unanswered question is how these differences in Prx1 expression mediate their effect on skeletal elongation. Endochondral long bones develop by the mineralized replacement of a cartilage scaffold that forms from condensed mesenchymal cells in the early developing limb bud. During chondrogenic growth, cells are organized so that a resting zone of slowly proliferating chondrocytes is located at the ends of the developing skeletal element. Cells from the medial end of the resting zone increase their rate of cell division and enter the proliferative zone, where they organize into stacks of rapidly dividing cells. As proliferating chondrocytes reach the end of the proliferative zone, they stop dividing, undergo hypertrophy, and subsequently die by apoptosis. As the cells undergo hypertrophic differentiation, they change the nature of the extracellular matrix, induce the membrane that ensheathes the skeletal element, the perichondrium, to produce osteoblasts, and recruit vasculature, osteoblasts, and osteoclasts to the newly forming bone

 

[digitalgoth]

It appears you also missed this post.

Thank you, I hadn't seen it. I'm late to the party.

Sure, a so-called beneficial mutation may occur some where and change a trait....but the odds of a second, third, fourth fifth...so-called beneficial mutation occurring in the proper place of the DNA code allowing proteins to fold precisely, changing the trait for the better....is impossible.

Impossible =/= Improbable.

The "odds" of it happening are rare according to you, which means it CAN happen, it is just UNLIKELY to happen every time. That's not impossible, it just means that the chances of it happening were low.

Evolution isn't directed behavior. Its not like God pointed at a fish and said "Evolve Wings" and then waited around until specific mutations added up until they precisely got a wing. It doesn't work that way.

As I said in my earlier post, all mutations are, is change. Changes that increase the reproductive success of an organism tend to increase in the population, so the organisms have that "change" plus all the changes before it breed and pass those characteristics on to their offspring. A mutation may occur that compliments an earlier mutation, or not, or kills the organism outright.

Its not impossible for a population of organisms over thousands of generations to have mutations that may enhance, compliment, or make alterations to previous changes.

What you're describing is the old tornado in a junkyard making an airplane argument by Dembski, which was invalid then and is invalid now, because you're only looking at the final form of an organism, and thinking everything that made it up was specifically designed to be that way, rather than it just ending up that way as the result of a plethora of changes throughout the populations' lifetimes.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No it's not.

What part of the title did you not understand:

"Digital gene expression tag profiling of bat digits provides robust candidates contributing to wing formation"?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yeah, great stuff from the switched article:
...the phenotypic effect in bats appears to be due to a gain of function for this enhancer since endogenous

Nice conclusion.

In fcat the article presents quite a complex process....that developed by chance?

Who is claiming that it developed by chance? Only those that do not understand the theory of evolution make that error.

An important unanswered question is how these differences in Prx1 expression mediate their effect on skeletal elongation. Endochondral long bones develop by the mineralized replacement of a cartilage scaffold that forms from condensed mesenchymal cells in the early developing limb bud. During chondrogenic growth, cells are organized so that a resting zone of slowly proliferating chondrocytes is located at the ends of the developing skeletal element. Cells from the medial end of the resting zone increase their rate of cell division and enter the proliferative zone, where they organize into stacks of rapidly dividing cells. As proliferating chondrocytes reach the end of the proliferative zone, they stop dividing, undergo hypertrophy, and subsequently die by apoptosis. As the cells undergo hypertrophic differentiation, they change the nature of the extracellular matrix, induce the membrane that ensheathes the skeletal element, the perichondrium, to produce osteoblasts, and recruit vasculature, osteoblasts, and osteoclasts to the newly forming bone

A quote of the part of the article that you did not understand only tells us that you did not understand the article.

 

[-57]

What part of the title did you not understand:

"Digital gene expression tag profiling of bat digits provides robust candidates contributing to wing formation"?

Wing formation of a fetus....not how they evolved.

 

[digitalgoth]

Wing formation of a fetus....not how they evolved.

The same way they grow legs. Or arms.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Wing formation of a fetus....not how they evolved.

Denial is not a river in Egypt.

 

[DaisyDay]

Find a single lie by WLC and I will give you a crisp $100 signed by George Clooney ha ha!

In his opening remarks, WLC attributes several statements by other people that Harris cited to Harris himself. Of course, this could just be several very sloppy mistakes, but it doesn't speak well for him.

 

[DaisyDay]

For me what is funny....is how all the evos banter around these forums and still there isn't a single evolutionist who can explain how a so-called extremely rare beneficial mutations have the ability to accumulate in an animals progeny to the point that a new trait developes and is observed.

Have you even read this very thread? That has already been discussed.

 

[bhsmte]

In his opening remarks, WLC attributes several statements by other people that Harris cited to Harris himself. Of course, this could just be several very sloppy mistakes, but it doesn't speak well for him.

What you mention, is one of Willies tricks he uses in his debates. He misrepresents his opponents position on several fronts, hoping the other guy, will eat up his time addressing Willie's misrepresentations, vs having time to present their argument.

 

[CarlaB]

Ok here is what I want you asked me what evidence would I like regarding fossils. Pick two modern animals and trace from the Big Bang to now their transition ... No lizards allowed as all your fossils look like modern day lizards.

If this is how you think then your child doesn't stand a chance, before your child is educated you owe it to your child and your family to educate yourself, you were not told about evolution so that you would remain a good creationist, your child deserves better than that.
If you are sure creationism is the truth why not allow your child to learn about evolution? he can then accept creationism from you because it's true and has nothing to fear from evolution, after all you have been told by people you hold dear that evolution is a lie anyway so what's the problem?
There is one little problem for you however, evolution is backed by facts that can be demonstrated while creationism is backed by words in an old book and that's all.

 

[-57]

Have you even read this very thread? That has already been discussed.

I'll make you the same ofer....show me where it has been answered and I'll never post here again.
.....bounce, bounce....balls in your court.

 

[digitalgoth]

If this is how you think then your child doesn't stand a chance, before your child is educated you owe it to your child and your family to educate yourself, you were not told about evolution so that you would remain a good creationist, your child deserves better than that.

Children only matter in the womb, after that they only matter at military recruitment age.

If you are sure creationism is the truth why not allow your child to learn about evolution? he can then accept creationism from you because it's true and has nothing to fear from evolution, after all you have been told by people you hold dear that evolution is a lie anyway so what's the problem?
There is one little problem for you however, evolution is backed by facts that can be demonstrated while creationism is backed by words in an old book and that's all.

Because the magic book completely falls apart with even the slightest of thinking about it.