Protoevangelium of James

[Thekla]

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What was the proper word he used for Brother regarding James?

The original language has not been given, just the translation.
There is no gloss on the term in the text to narrow the term; there isn't anything (thus far) to go on.

 

[Montalban]

Its still good, its still good!

And Monty (not me) still didn't give to charity!!!



I love it 'cause Paul McCartney - my favourite musician is in it

 

[Standing Up]

Cyril does use brother in both senses of the word (Fire pointed this out, but was ignored). 500 brethren (kinfolk). James His OWN brother (brother-same mother, different father).

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What was the proper word he used for Brother regarding James?

What are the choices? Not kinfolk. Not spiritual. Not previous marriage (remember PoJ is spurious). Not cousin (heyyy, maybe this is why 25 years later Jerome rushes to invent the cousin theory). What's left? His OWN brother.

You may disagree, but you still gotta love the perfect tradition from first Jerusalem bishop James brother of the Lord to Jerusalem bishop Cyril. Like Paul said, hang on to tradition whether by scripture or word.

 

[Montalban]

I don't see why every time I wish to engage in evidence presented by one poster it's called an 'attempt to derail' the thread.

Cyril of Jerusalem refers to Mary always as 'the Virgin'. In this particular bit I quoted: "Bears witness" is ongoing - she continues to bear witness.

As to 'tradition handed down by James' that is not something I've raised.

I do appreciate this first attempt at addressing my rebuttal, but to say it's going off-topic is strange as I'm not the one who raised the issue of Cyril of Jerusalem

 

[Thekla]

Cyril does use brother in both senses of the word (Fire pointed this out, but was ignored). 500 brethren (kinfolk). James His OWN brother (brother-same mother, different father).




What are the choices? Not kinfolk. Not spiritual. Not previous marriage (remember PoJ is spurious). Not cousin (heyyy, maybe this is why 25 years later Jerome rushes to invent the cousin theory). What's left? His OWN brother.

You may disagree, but you still gotta love the perfect tradition from first Jerusalem bishop James brother of the Lord to Jerusalem bishop Cyril. Like Paul said, hang on to tradition whether by scripture or word.

The term used (brother) is in Greek and Hebrew a general term requiring a gloss for narrowing.
No such pointed descriptive occurs within the text.
It has not been proven by you that the PoJ contains false information.

 

[Kepha]

The original language has not been given, just the translation.
There is no gloss on the term in the text to narrow the term; there isn't anything (thus far) to go on.

Oh I see. It's another one of those "He meant Blood Brother by Mary because I said He did" type deals.

 

[Standing Up]

I don't see why every time I wish to engage in evidence presented by one poster it's called an 'attempt to derail' the thread.

Cyril of Jerusalem refers to Mary always as 'the Virgin'. In this particular bit I quoted: "Bears witness" is ongoing - she continues to bear witness.

As to 'tradition handed down by James' that is not something I've raised.

I do appreciate this first attempt at addressing my rebuttal, but to say it's going off-topic is strange as I'm not the one who raised the issue of Cyril of Jerusalem

Jordan is His witness among rivers; the sea of Tiberias among seas: blind and lame bear witness, and dead men raised to life, and devils saying, What have we to do with You, Jesus? We know You, who You are, the Holy One of God. Mark 1:24 Winds bear witness, silenced at His bidding:

Jordan still the same? Winds blow and still? Nuff said.

Back to the PoJ.

 

[Montalban]

Oh I see. It's another one of those "He meant Blood Brother by Mary because I said He did" type deals.

Ultimately that's the argument. Even using ECFs (ironically) to say that they meant one version of brother too (when they don't say it) is simply widening the circle in this circular logic

If any ECFs could be shown to say that Mary had other sons, that would help the use of ECFs for that side of the argument

 

[Standing Up]

Oh I see. It's another one of those "He meant Blood Brother by Mary because I said He did" type deals.

Well, I know it's hard to believe. I suggest folks go find another theory or two operating at the time besides these two:

1) PoJ--brothers by Joseph/former wife
2) Scripture/tradition--brothers by Joseph/Mary.

If you can find any other theory (besides the cousin one that hadn't been invented until c400ad), please then, let's look at it.

 

[Montalban]

What's Jordan got to do with anything?

I also don't know why we have to get back to the PoJ when StandingUp is the one who raised Cyril as a witness

It seems that the post is saying "Okay, it seems we can't use Cyril, I think that he's now off-topic"

 

[Thekla]

Using "Virgin" as an appellation, when it postdates her sojourn on earth, is a statement of ever-viriginity. (Else, it would be for example, Mary then a virgin, Mary while she was yet virgin, etc.)

 

[Standing Up]

The term used (brother) is in Greek and Hebrew a general term requiring a gloss for narrowing.
No such pointed descriptive occurs within the text.
It has not been proven by you that the PoJ contains false information.

PoJ
Jesus born unnaturally. Just appears.
Born as a young child.
It goes to the breast.
Born in a cave.
Used a midwife.
Mary in pain.
Not to mention all the other wild things.

Scripture
Jesus born naturally.
Born as an infant.
Mary feeds Him.
Born in a manger.
No midwife present.
No light mentioned.

 

[Standing Up]

Using "Virgin" as an appellation, when it postdates her sojourn on earth, is a statement of ever-viriginity. (Else, it would be for example, Mary then a virgin, Mary while she was yet virgin, etc.)

Not at all. Everyone agrees Mary conceived as a virgin. It's a doctrine, regardless of what folks may think. Jesus born of a woman (Paul).

Again, however, this is not about EV.

No more off topic conversation.

 

[Standing Up]

Bump

Cyril does use brother in both senses of the word (Fire pointed this out, but was ignored). 500 brethren (kinfolk). James His OWN brother (brother-same mother, different father).




What are the choices? Not kinfolk. Not spiritual. Not previous marriage (remember PoJ is spurious). Not cousin (heyyy, maybe this is why 25 years later Jerome rushes to invent the cousin theory). What's left? His OWN brother.

You may disagree, but you still gotta love the perfect tradition from first Jerusalem bishop James brother of the Lord to Jerusalem bishop Cyril. Like Paul said, hang on to tradition whether by scripture or word.

Again, I would invite readers to come up with any other tradition operating in the first 200 years besides these two.

PoJ---brothers by Joseph/previous wife
Scripture/tradition---brothers by Joseph/Mary

Those are the only two that I'm aware of.

 

[Kepha]

What are the choices? Not kinfolk.

Why not?

Not previous marriage

Why not?

(remember PoJ is spurious)

So what?

You may disagree, but you still gotta love the perfect tradition from first Jerusalem bishop James brother of the Lord to Jerusalem bishop Cyril. Like Paul said, hang on to tradition whether by scripture or word.

Coming from a guy who's only tradition is a forced interpretation into a text, you're one to talk.

 

[Thekla]

PoJ
Jesus born unnaturally. Just appears.
Born as a young child.
It goes to the breast.
Born in a cave.
Used a midwife.
Mary in pain.
Not to mention all the other wild things.

Scripture
Jesus born naturally.
Born as an infant.
Mary feeds Him.
Born in a manger.
No midwife present.
No light mentioned.

Could you correlate quotations from the texts for the claims you make about the information in the texts ?

 

[Kepha]

Bump
Again, I would invite readers to come up with any other tradition operating in the first 200 years besides these two.

Why are you so concerned about another tradition?

 

[Kepha]

Everyone agrees Mary conceived as a virgin. It's a doctrine, regardless of what folks may think.

So you're going on record now and stating the first Marian dogma of for all Protestants where She was a literal Virgin when She Conceived?

The Miraculous Virginity of Mother Mary was special and Her Ever Virgin title reflects that. You know it, I know it and She Knew it.

 

[SolomonVII]

So you're going on record now and stating the first Marian dogma of for all Protestants where She was a literal Virgin when She Conceived?

Virgin Birth, yes

The Miraculous Virginity of Mother Mary was special and Her Ever Virgin title reflects that. You know it, I know it and She Knew it.

She knows it, and uses the Magnificat reminiscent of Hannah to express it.

All the rest is more reminiscent of pagan myth and Gnosticism than who she was, or what apostolic teaching is.

False unsubstantiated Dogma outside of all Scripture and apostolic tradition. The only documented support comes indirectly from PofJ and similar pseudoepigraphic writings.
PoJ references Matthew and Luke for his information.
Matthew was written after the 62Ad date in which tradition has James dying.
It is a work of fiction, contradicts Scripture, and contradicts the human nature of Jesus.

 

[Montalban]

Why are you so concerned about another tradition?

It's also based on the flawed understanding that the first written appearance of something is the first time it existed.