Protesting Protestantism

[Light of the East]

Actually, it replaced the first covenant and it exactly what I should look at.



What grew is the number of believers. It didn't mean it would morph into something totally unrecognizable to the first believers and certainly not into a new religion.

This comment shows me that you have no idea -- and I mean zero! -- as to how to use a biblical analogy. When one speaks of a seed, one thinks of something that looks entirely different than the full grown tree. For instance, in the beginning of the New Covenant, the believers met in their own houses, but as the Church grew and the understanding of this New Covenant became clearer and clearer, cathedrals and parishes were established for worship. In the beginning, the Eucharist was partaken of as part of a community love/meal. At some point, it was realized that this was no appropriate treatment for the Body and Blood of Christ, and that practice ceased.

And it did not "morph into a new religion." The new religion is Protestantism, which was unknown until 1517 and the rebellion of Martin Luther. You have been reading too many Chick tracts. And quite frankly, you appear to be unable to understand metaphors and analogies from the Bible. This is a prime example of why the Church, in Her wisdom, restricted people from reading the Bible and coming up with their own conclusions, which is why we have 30,000+ "churches" today, each teaching something different and all claiming to have the truth, despite contradicting each other.

Paul preached a baptism of repentance but Jesus baptizes us with the spirit and fire.

I repeat, there was no such thing as "believer's baptism" in the Early Church. That is one of many fond Protestant inventions.

Why are you mocking Jesus?

Obviously you have never been a Fundamentalist or heard one of them preach, have you. They talk about "accepting Jaaaaaayzuz" and that's the way they talk. They talk funny, especially the Tennesee Windsucker variety.

No doubt. Holy communion is not a term I would ever use. We break bread together in remembrance of Him.

That is the term that the Church uses because the Body and Blood of Christ are most sacred (holy). Your grape juice and crackers are.....a nice snack, I guess.

I quite agree. I do not acknowledge any pope. There is one mediator between God and man, that is Christ Jesus ALONE.
Ignorant about what?

Everything theological. Your statement about one mediators shows me that. You have utterly no idea what you are talking about or what the term "one mediator" even refers to.

 

[JustHisKid]

I can't respond when you quote in quotes.

 

[Light of the East]

What kind of authority?

The authority to lead God's people on earth.

There is only one Bride of Christ, the Church, which is the body of all born again believers, regardless of whether the attend a "church" service or not.

That is not true. Wherever the congregation of God (aka the church) is spoken of in scripture, it refers to a visible structure, hierarchical in nature, and with specific places established for offering worship, praise, and sacrifice. What you just said is the idea of the "invisible church" which is a fraudulent idea made up by the rebels of the Protestant Reformation.

Jesus established salvation. He didn't establish a new religion. In fact, He eliminated the need for one.

You are delusional.

 

[Chicken Little]

"You obviously do not understand anything about the establishment of authority." oh yes I do .
but what and who that authority is is the issues.. we can claim whatever we want too and pretend to have right to make those claims. . But Constantine is the who set up that churches authority. the concept that Peter said when Jesus told him that it "was the rock" which God would " use to build HIS church" . which was never of this world it is not to be known by flesh and blood it is not of flesh and blood.. . the concept of what happened in that moment that Peter knew he was standing on the rock of the ages.. that is the only answer .. that is the rock God would use , He is the rock and all truth comes form him and only from HIM !


17And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you , but My Father who is in heaven(!!!!!!!!!!). 18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.19"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."…

allowing the bloody Constantine and his momma who were all Pegans with blood on their hands to build a building , churches or any such thing " for God " or "for his name " is a joke.
Jesus / Jehovah clearly states over and over , new and old testement that He only wants hearts. not buildings

 

[JustHisKid]

I'll take my chances.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I appreciate the banter of Light of the East, the arguments that you have put forth tend to go beyond the scope of this thread. You asked a question, I provided an answer, you provided a rebuttal. Done deal . as this is a controversial theology, I welcome your controversy. Bless.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

So one thing I envision is people relating to one another with love with zero sense of earthly hierarchy, those who are great are those who serve, and the greatness is accepted with humility.

 

[TheBarrd]

There is something about deliberately mocking someone else's manner of speaking that is just wrong.
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want anything to do with any church or denomination where that sort of rude and brutish behavior were prevalent.

 

[single eye]

Do you think in some ways that the reformation did not go far enough in removing catholic elements from church in making it more "christ like?" In what ways? what do you envision?

"The faith once delivered to the saints", before Paul came and ruined it with all that heretical atonement nonsense. The gift of grace has nothing to do with atonement.

 

[Light of the East]

There is something about deliberately mocking someone else's manner of speaking that is just wrong.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want anything to do with any church or denomination where that sort of rude and brutish behavior were prevalent.

I assume you are pointing at me, since I have made my distaste for Fundamentalists rather obvious in my posts.

Some people, sir, deserve to be mocked. If you read Matthew 23 you will see our Lord doing just that to the Pharisees. So did the Early Fathers when they spoke of those bringing forth heretical ideas about our Lord and His salvation. If you had been in and seen the kind of Fundamentalist whackjobs I sat under, you would understand. Not only is their theology crazy (think Westboro Baptist sort of nutty) but they are not the nicest people in the world.

I was a young, naïve, trusting kid and they took my ideas of Christianity and filled me with nonsense. They hurt people and continue to do so. How do you think it affects people to have certain ideas about our Lord presented as truth, yet it is far from the truth? I needed to learn to be kind, loving, and helpful. What I got from the Fundamentalists to whom I listened and sat under for years was massive doses of judgmentalism, mean-spiritedness, and the idea that only we were right. Everyone else, even including other Fundamentalists, were going to hell.

That is not the Spirit of our Lord.

I see that this spirit is in some of the people here who cannot be reasoned with from Scripture. They will not respond, they tell you, in no kind terms, that you are wrong and going to hell for what you believe, and while their understanding of theology is very childish, they act as if they are the wisest persons on the planet when it comes to understanding the Bible. I know this because I am 66 years old and I have been one of these people, so I recognize the sickness. After 40+ years of studying the Bible and finding out just how wrong I have been, I try to listen to and consider what others say to me. I actually read the links that people send me, even when I disagree with what is said. I've had people respond to me and my posts so fast that I know they didn't even bother to read what I sent them because they are in such a hurry to prove me wrong.

Fundamentalists (those who huff and puff from the pulpit - I call them "Tennessee Windsuckers") are the worst in this. Again, I've been there and done that - and I regret being one of them. Now that I have escaped their clutches, I have no respect for them at all. It is not respectworthy to fail to listen to others, to fail to study the Bible properly, and to ignore Christian history. The Fundamentalists I sat under hid the facts of the Early Church from me. They do this because if people find out that the first Christians (and this goes back to the subject of the OP) believed in the Eucharist and practiced infant baptism, their sheep would be asking disturbing questions.

Better to keep them in the dark like a mushroom.

I forgive them, but that does not mean that I have to particularly like them.

 

[Light of the East]

So one thing I envision is people relating to one another with love with zero sense of earthly hierarchy, those who are great are those who serve, and the greatness is accepted with humility.

Michael -- what you are saying is true. Now take the time to read about the bishops and popes of the Church, especially in the first six centuries. They were servants who cared for their people and gave their lives for the truth. 25 of the first 27 popes were martyred. Doesn't sound self-serving to me!

 

[TheBarrd]

I assume you are pointing at me, since I have made my distaste for Fundamentalists rather obvious in my posts.

Some people, sir, deserve to be mocked. If you read Matthew 23 you will see our Lord doing just that to the Pharisees. So did the Early Fathers when they spoke of those bringing forth heretical ideas about our Lord and His salvation. If you had been in and seen the kind of Fundamentalist whackjobs I sat under, you would understand. Not only is their theology crazy (think Westboro Baptist sort of nutty) but they are not the nicest people in the world.

I was a young, naïve, trusting kid and they took my ideas of Christianity and filled me with nonsense. They hurt people and continue to do so. How do you think it affects people to have certain ideas about our Lord presented as truth, yet it is far from the truth? I needed to learn to be kind, loving, and helpful. What I got from the Fundamentalists to whom I listened and sat under for years was massive doses of judgmentalism, mean-spiritedness, and the idea that only we were right. Everyone else, even including other Fundamentalists, were going to hell.

That is not the Spirit of our Lord.

I see that this spirit is in some of the people here who cannot be reasoned with from Scripture. They will not respond, they tell you, in no kind terms, that you are wrong and going to hell for what you believe, and while their understanding of theology is very childish, they act as if they are the wisest persons on the planet when it comes to understanding the Bible. I know this because I am 66 years old and I have been one of these people, so I recognize the sickness. After 40+ years of studying the Bible and finding out just how wrong I have been, I try to listen to and consider what others say to me. I actually read the links that people send me, even when I disagree with what is said. I've had people respond to me and my posts so fast that I know they didn't even bother to read what I sent them because they are in such a hurry to prove me wrong.

Fundamentalists (those who huff and puff from the pulpit - I call them "Tennessee Windsuckers") are the worst in this. Again, I've been there and done that - and I regret being one of them. Now that I have escaped their clutches, I have no respect for them at all. It is not respectworthy to fail to listen to others, to fail to study the Bible properly, and to ignore Christian history. The Fundamentalists I sat under hid the facts of the Early Church from me. They do this because if people find out that the first Christians (and this goes back to the subject of the OP) believed in the Eucharist and practiced infant baptism, their sheep would be asking disturbing questions.

Better to keep them in the dark like a mushroom.

I forgive them, but that does not mean that I have to particularly like them.

First of all, I'm not a sir, I am a lady.
Second, while I know that Our Lord called the Pharisees on their hypocrisy, please show me an incident where He was rude or mocking about it? He called them what they were...hypocrites, or even "generation of vipers"...but He didn't mock them.
So, you got caught in a web of lies. It happens. You found your way out of it. That's great. But no compassion for those still caught in it? I don't think that's a very Christ-like response.
You don't have to like them, you say? Uh, wrong. You have to love them. You have to pray for them.
Why? Well, because Jesus said so. Or haven't you read the Sermon on the Mount, where He tells us to love our enemies and to pray for them?
You and I are about the same age. I'll be 65 this October. I grew up in upstate New York...the people around me were Christians...but they were what I think of as cold Christians. There was no enthusiasm, no fire. There wasn't even a Bible in my house...not till my Grandmother gave me my own Bible for Christmas. I had just turned 12. I devoured it...by Easter I had read it through. Okay...I admit, I sort of skimmed through Numbers, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy...but other than that, I was glued to every word on every page...and then, when I got to the four Gospels...well, I was in love.
Now, I understand how you feel, I truly do. As it happens, I now live in southern Alabama, where I am surrounded by what you call fundamentalists. And charismatics...they are the very worst. Those people babble in "tongues" and fall faint when their preacher touches them...you'd have to actually attend one of their services, to understand what I'm talking about.
I feel sorry for them, and especially for their kids, but I do not make fun of them.

 

[interpreter]

What church do you go to? If you don't mind my asking

I am a member of the Episcopal Church which is a Church founded by St. Peter. And Episcopalians, led by George Washington who rode a pale horse, founded the US, the 4th horseman to rule the earth for Jesus.

 

[Light of the East]

I am a member of the Episcopal Church which is a Church founded by St. Peter. And Episcopalians, led by George Washington who rode a pale horse, founded the US, the 4th horseman to rule the earth for Jesus.

Sorry. You are historically inaccurate. The Episcopalian Church is the American branch of Anglicanism, which was founded by the adulterous Henry the VIII when he couldn't get his way with the Church.

When the Crazy King broke away from the Catholic Church, the link of apostolic succession was gone in under a century. You do not have valid Sacraments and you have no apostolic succession. If you want to remain Episcopalian (which is a very beautiful Liturgy) and have valid Sacraments, you should consider the Anglican Ordinariate. You get the BEST of both worlds - valid Eucharist and Anglican Liturgy.

 

[Light of the East]

First of all, I'm not a sir, I am a lady.
Second, while I know that Our Lord called the Pharisees on their hypocrisy, please show me an incident where He was rude or mocking about it? He called them what they were...hypocrites, or even "generation of vipers"...but He didn't mock them.
So, you got caught in a web of lies. It happens. You found your way out of it. That's great. But no compassion for those still caught in it? I don't think that's a very Christ-like response.
You don't have to like them, you say? Uh, wrong. You have to love them. You have to pray for them.
Why? Well, because Jesus said so. Or haven't you read the Sermon on the Mount, where He tells us to love our enemies and to pray for them?
You and I are about the same age. I'll be 65 this October. I grew up in upstate New York...the people around me were Christians...but they were what I think of as cold Christians. There was no enthusiasm, no fire. There wasn't even a Bible in my house...not till my Grandmother gave me my own Bible for Christmas. I had just turned 12. I devoured it...by Easter I had read it through. Okay...I admit, I sort of skimmed through Numbers, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy...but other than that, I was glued to every word on every page...and then, when I got to the four Gospels...well, I was in love.
Now, I understand how you feel, I truly do. As it happens, I now live in southern Alabama, where I am surrounded by what you call fundamentalists. And charismatics...they are the very worst. Those people babble in "tongues" and fall faint when their preacher touches them...you'd have to actually attend one of their services, to understand what I'm talking about.
I feel sorry for them, and especially for their kids, but I do not make fun of them.

Love, my dear, does not mean I have to like them. And since they are crazy, I'm going to point out this fact.

OH....PS -- I do have compassion for those who are trapped in this web of lies called Fundamentalism. It's the leaders (the "preachas") whom I despise. I do so because they are seminary trained and should be held to a much higher standard than to behave as they do.

They ignore the truth when it is told to them.

They believe fatuous nonsense about the Church.

They refuse to believe in Christian history.

They insult the Church.

And they deliberately keep the truth from their people. I remember a Methodist pastor who converted to the Catholic faith. He told us that in four years of seminary, he was not given one single quote from one Early Father of the Christian faith.

Why?

Because if the seminary began to actually teach Christian history, it wouldn't take long for the students to realize that Methodism is just one more in a long line of man-made religions that has tacked the name Christian to its helm.

THAT, my dear, is highly dishonest. And for such dishonesty, I have nothing but scorn.

 

[TheBarrd]

Love, my dear, does not mean I have to like them. And since they are crazy, I'm going to point out this fact.

I'm fine with that.
In fact, I actually agree with it.
I just don't like to see people's dialects mocked. That bit wasn't necessary, and it is very off-putting.
And I'd add...if you are going to call people out for being overbearing and self righteous, do make sure you, yourself, are not being overbearing and self righteous...
Otherwise all your good efforts and good intentions are completely wasted.

 

[TheBarrd]

Sorry. You are historically inaccurate. The Episcopalian Church is the American branch of Anglicanism, which was founded by the adulterous Henry the VIII when he couldn't get his way with the Church.

When the Crazy King broke away from the Catholic Church, the link of apostolic succession was gone in under a century. You do not have valid Sacraments and you have no apostolic succession. If you want to remain Episcopalian (which is a very beautiful Liturgy) and have valid Sacraments, you should consider the Anglican Ordinariate. You get the BEST of both worlds - valid Eucharist and Anglican Liturgy.

I'm getting the impression that you have nothing but scorn for anyone who is not a Catholic?
Now, I know several Catholics who are quite accepting of other faiths. Indeed, I have a very dear friend who is a Catholic school teacher up in Pennsylvania who refers to the Episcopalian church as "Catholic Lite".
Have you also had a bad experience with Episcopalians?

 

[Light of the East]

I'm getting the impression that you have nothing but scorn for anyone who is not a Catholic?
Now, I know several Catholics who are quite accepting of other faiths. Indeed, I have a very dear friend who is a Catholic school teacher up in Pennsylvania who refers to the Episcopalian church as "Catholic Lite".
Have you also had a bad experience with Episcopalians?

No, I was raised Episcopalian. I have a deep love for the Anglican Liturgy and I sometimes go to the new Anglican Ordinariate parish in Washington DC. I am thinking of perhaps transferring there.

Is it scorn to tell you the facts? Your King Henry VIII broke away from the Catholic Church. In doing so, he destroyed the apostolic succession which goes back to Peter and the Apostles. Authority has a very specific way of being passed down from generation to generation. Once that is destroyed, the link is severed and the authority is gone.

It's kinda like this: (poor analogy, but I'll try). We have a police force in my town. Now suppose one of the officers decided that he was going to set up his own police force, complete with similar looking uniforms and a nice squad car.

Would he at all possess the authority of a real policeman? Not on your life!

God established a very distinct and singular Church, into which He placed His authority (Matt. 16: 18-19; John 20:23). All others may have parts of doctrine correct, and in your case, may have lovely Liturgy, but there is something missing because of a lack of union with the Holy Father in Rome, which is where the keys of the Kingdom (authority) were given and still exist.

 

[Light of the East]

I'm fine with that.
In fact, I actually agree with it.
I just don't like to see people's dialects mocked. That bit wasn't necessary, and it is very off-putting.
And I'd add...if you are going to call people out for being overbearing and self righteous, do make sure you, yourself, are not being overbearing and self righteous...
Otherwise all your good efforts and good intentions are completely wasted.

Drive through West Virginia on a Sunday morning with the AM radio on. Then come back and tell me that you weren't laughing your head off at the way they mangle the King's English.

And they're proud of it, too!

 

[TheBarrd]

No, I was raised Episcopalian. I have a deep love for the Anglican Liturgy and I sometimes go to the new Anglican Ordinariate parish in Washington DC. I am thinking of perhaps transferring there.

Is it scorn to tell you the facts? Your King Henry VIII broke away from the Catholic Church. In doing so, he destroyed the apostolic succession which goes back to Peter and the Apostles. Authority has a very specific way of being passed down from generation to generation. Once that is destroyed, the link is severed and the authority is gone.

It's kinda like this: (poor analogy, but I'll try). We have a police force in my town. Now suppose one of the officers decided that he was going to set up his own police force, complete with similar looking uniforms and a nice squad car.

Would he at all possess the authority of a real policeman? Not on your life!

God established a very distinct and singular Church, into which He placed His authority (Matt. 16: 18-19; John 20:23). All others may have parts of doctrine correct, and in your case, may have lovely Liturgy, but there is something missing because of a lack of union with the Holy Father in Rome, which is where the keys of the Kingdom (authority) were given and still exist.

My King Henry? My dear, I'm an American. The closest I come to being British would be my Mom, whose ancestry was Welsh. On my Dad's side, I'm half American Indian...Iroquois and Cattaraugus, to be precise...and the other half is French Canadian, I believe. There may be a splash of black, as well, from a much beloved slave...but I can't be sure about that one. In any case there is nothing in my person or in my heritage that connects me to the old naughty king.

Besides, most of us know that there were several popes who had illegitimate children...and several who were actually married. So throwing stones might not be the best policy.

Your analogy isn't all that bad, actually.
Of course, I don't accept comparing the church to a police force...but it was still a banging good try.