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Protestants-biblically prove ONE Mediator

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myhopeisfound

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I've tried to keep up with the posts here. And while rickfleming, steve bakr, and Incariol have explained what they believe (and beautifully done in some spots) I still can't figure out where they pull their beliefs from scripture. I've read the Revelation passages over and over, but still do not find where it says the saints and angels are hearing the offered prayers, even the silent ones. B/c this is such an interesting topic to me, I actually read this entire thread over last night, from the beginning and most on the RC side quote Saints and/or catechism or RC documents, but the only scripture that has been quoted is Revelation or something that doesn't seem to have much to do with speaking to Saints that are in Heaven. I'm really trying to understand this. I am not here to throw out insults or put RC and EO's down. I just can't agree that it is NOT replacing the job of Christ and not giving those who are in Heaven a God-only attribute...omniscience. I'm not limiting God's power. I believe He can do anything, but I don't see where He tells us in HIS Word, to pray TO Saints b/c He gave them this omniscient attribute.

As for the Revelation passage where the prayers offered are given to God. Nowhere does it say they Hear the prayers, unless you read into the passage. The Saints in Heaven are serving God day and night, they are not serving the people here on earth....what do you RC's and EO's (or anyone else) think?
 
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strelok0017

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It's simple to explain it. If prayers of saints would effect our status with God it would mean this: He would not be sovereign but in a way "manipulated" by saints and their prayers may save us. That is completely wrong. We are saved by hearing the word of God. As it is said, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. Saints are not just dead people but all who belong to Christ so in a sense saints can pray for you that is, just ask another Christian to pray for you and there you have it. Jesus is the worker and perfecter of our faith. Even if you can't find any blunt contradictions to the fact that it is He who makes us born again by His Spirit it should be obvious that saints who are in heaven can't mediate for us. It would contradict salvation. Besides, Jesus is the mediator only for those who are saved. If He was mediator for everyone then everyone would be saved. He also said: "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy.". He decides who will be saved and who will perish. You can't go beyond the Bible and still be Biblical. I hope this helps.

God bless everyone!
 
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Bob Carabbio

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"all of above is a clear misrepresentation of Catholic doctrine."

I don't believe so -

Why are "Physically Dead saints" REQUIRED as a condition of "canonization" to PROVE their "Clout" with God by getting a couple of prayer addressed to THEM answered favorably?????

JP2's in that state right now - Both of his "supposed miracles" are in some jeopardy. He hasn't PROVED that he can "Get 'er done" yet.

Praying to God in Jesus' name isn't sufficient - gotta have some "homeboys", and Mom on your side to get what you want.
 
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Panevino

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Bob Carabbio said:
......

Praying to God in Jesus' name isn't sufficient - gotta have some "homeboys", and Mom on your side to get what you want.
Click to expand...


This is not catholic doctrine
And ignores value of giving/seeking intercession that we are called to as members of the Body.

1tim1:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;....3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

1thes5: 25 Brethren, pray for us.
 
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myhopeisfound

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First, you say this is not Roman Catholic doctrine. But the RC Catechism says:

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."
also, it says in Liguori's "The Glories of Mary", regarding Mary:

"If God is angry with any sinner, and Mary takes him under her protection, she withholds the avenging arm of her Son, and saves him." (pg. 125)

"O Immaculate Virgin, prevent thy beloved Son, who is irritated by our sins, by abandoning us to the power of the devil." (pg.248)

Where is the Christ's sufficiency in these examples of the Roman Catholic faith? Where is "One Mediator"? Or is it "One Mediator" and "one mediatrix"..? This part of your catechism really disturbs me and Alphonse de Liguori's writings replace Christ with Mary. I cannot find it in scripture anywhere, the "mediatrix" thing, that is.

You also quote 1Timothy 2:1. This part in the letter to Timothy was written to Timothy and the Church in Ephesus to pray for all people, obviously on earth (b/c why would we pray for Saints already in Heaven). I don't understand why you quoted this as a verse encouraging me to pray TO Saints in Heaven.

Then you quoted 1 Thessalonians 5:25, "Brothers, pray for us." Paul, Silas and Timothy are asking the Thessalonians to pray for them. They also ask them to "Greet all brothers with a holy kiss". If you take verse 25 as what the Saints in Heaven are doing for us, then why can't I take verse 26 literally as well. Are the Saints greeting me with a kiss? I just can't feel it? I know that is a stretch, but if one reads the Bible that way, picking and choosing what verses are talking about the Saints in Heaven and what ones are talking about the saints on earth, that leaves a VERY open interpretation. There is not really a limit.

One more thing you hopefully can help me understand is when the Roman Catholic Catechism says:

2683 The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom, especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer by the example of their lives, the transmission of their writings, and their prayer today. They contemplate God, praise him and constantly care for those whom they have left on earth. When they entered into the joy of their Master, they were "put in charge of many things." Their intercession is their most exalted service to God's plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.

Where in scripture does it say these things? I'm going to do a little more research, maybe I missed something, but in the meantime can you give me any verses to help me understand this part of the RCCatechism?

Thank you.

Oh yeah, one more thing...I think it was Panevino who posted something like, "seeking intercession from saints is done humbly and with hope, not certainty..." Why do you do it then? I can be CERTAIN Christ hears and perfects my prayers and takes them straight to the Father when I pray to Him. I can ask someone on earth to pray for me, but like you said, I'm not certain that they will (unless I'm with them), but when I pray in Jesus name, I'm CERTAIN my prayer is heard...might not be answered the way I want, BUT it is certainly heard. Why do it any other way?
 
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strelok0017

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"If God is angry with any sinner, and Mary takes him under her protection, she withholds the avenging arm of her Son, and saves him." (pg. 125)

"O Immaculate Virgin, prevent thy beloved Son, who is irritated by our sins, by abandoning us to the power of the devil." (pg.248)


Those two have nothing to do with the Bible. Sorry guys but this is just wrong.
Jesus is the only one mediator and the only one to protect us. He is God. Who is Mary to forbid God Almighty from punishing sinners?
Anything else I could say about those two lines would be a sin.
 
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thegospelisgoodnews

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I would disagree, the bible teaches quite the opposite, even Jesus relented from His not being sent to the gentiles, to give the woman what she wanted, who begged Him and ackowledged herself as a little dog who would eat the crumbs that fell under the table (see Mathew 15:21-28) or how about Jesus teaching on persistance in prayer (see Luke 11:5-8) or the Parable of the persistant widow (see Luke 18) and what about all the old testiment examples how begging and pleading with God changed Gods mind, Moses saved Israel numerous times, Abraham saved lot and his family, and the people of Niniveh cried out in repentance and God relented from destroying them........God is motivated by persistant prayer and supplications and repentance God has a heart and it can be touched ....Its all through the bible
 
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strelok0017

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I think I said it wrong. What I mean it prayers of dead saints.
You can't ask a dead saint to pray for you but you can ask others who are alive. My mistake.
 
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Panevino

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myhopeisfound said:
First, you say this is not Roman Catholic doctrine.
Click to expand...
its not what is the role described above leading to the titles? How is her role continued? By "intercession"

The title mediatrix and the role ascribed does not bypass Jesus at all (it can't!)
Be sure to read the rest of the catechism on this and it will be clear.

I have not read liguori, however I know that somewhere at the beginning of this text , or perhaps another of his, he makes it very clear as does the catechism that Mary's role does
Not bypass Jesus or[bless and do not curse]
Is somehow independent of Him.[bless and do not curse]

I assume that the words "saves him" is part of the problem.

But through intercession amazing things happen
Exo32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?

Yes Moses ended up ordering the slaying of many.

Rom11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.

Of course Pauls ability to save relies entirely on Jesus as does any member of the body, including Mary who is also His mother.
"O Immaculate Virgin, prevent thy beloved Son, who is irritated by our sins, by abandoning us to the power of the devil." (pg.248)
[bless and do not curse]
Where is the Christ's sufficiency in these examples of the Roman Catholic faith?
Click to expand...
it is [bless and do not curse]clearly there and it only takes a small scratch through misunderstanding to see it plain as day
and where [bless and do not curse]is "One Mediator"? Or is it "One Mediator" and "one mediatrix"..?
Click to expand...
one mediator is clear in the catechism, mis interpretation of a title does not negate this.
This part of your catechism really disturbs me and Alphonse de Liguori's writings replace Christ with Mary.
Click to expand...
they appear to and are very passionate but they don't replace /bypass Jesus when all is read and understood in context of catholic theology you need to read what i was responding to. I was not offering the verse as a proof of asking saints in heaven to interceed. I was highlighting that the previous posters comment appeared to ignore that seeking intercession at all is not necessary . [bless and do not curse]But since you brought it up, the saints in heaven are alive in christ. [bless and do not curse]
Are the Saints greeting me with a kiss? I just can't feel it? I know that is a stretch, but if one reads the Bible that way, picking and choosing what verses are talking about the Saints in Heaven and what ones are talking about the saints on earth,
Click to expand...
rev6:9-10 read Heb 11:xx - 12:1
[bless and do not curse]
Where in scripture does it say these things?
Click to expand...
saints who have gone to heaven play a role. [bless and do not curse] [bless and do not curse]
Luke22:30 - rev4:4 (a very important role)
rev 5:8 - [bless and do not curse] Ps141:2
Rev6:9-10
Etc


I'm going to do a little more research, maybe I missed something, but in the meantime can you give me any verses to help me understand this part of the RCCatechism?
Click to expand...
No worries, humbly, because It is Gods mercy and will that is sought to be understood and if what we are asking is not His will then ....[bless and do not curse]
When I mentioned certainty it was in this context, not the "hearing" part[bless and do not curse]
 
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thegospelisgoodnews

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strelok0017 said:
I think I said it wrong. What I mean it prayers of dead saints.
You can't ask a dead saint to pray for you but you can ask others who are alive. My mistake.
Click to expand...
Yes I agree, all bible scripture refering to praying with others, always was directed at those who were still on the side of flesh and blood, It is never alluded to praying with those on the otherside, in fact the opposite has always been the case as even trying to speak with the prophet Samuel was in error. but you can't convince those who insist on christian necromancy as an act of righteousness and being a good thing
 
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Panevino

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thegospelisgoodnews said:
Yes I agree, all bible scripture refering to praying with others, always was directed at those who were still on the side of flesh and blood, It is never alluded to
Click to expand...
psalm141:2, rev5:8.
It's not always necromancy, given Jesus/Moses.
And John in rev5:13
 
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Panevino

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strelok0017 said:
Out of context, I'm afraid. It's obvious that those verses are about prayers to the Lord, not saints.
Click to expand...

I understand.
And I agree they are to the lord, no argument from me.
The incense (prayers of saints) are in hands of elders.

Seeking intercession is the same it is a prayer to the Lord.
 
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strelok0017

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Panevino said:
I understand.
And I agree they are to the lord, no argument from me.
The incense (prayers of saints) are in hands of elders.

Seeking intercession is the same it is a prayer to the Lord.
Click to expand...

That is correct as long as you ask someone who is still in the flesh to pray for you. It's not uncommon for Baptists and other reformed denominations. I don't really remember anything like that in Catholic Church; I'm an ex Catholic; but I guess they do it also.

God bless you!
 
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Panevino

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Sure, Catholics certainly seek intercession from those alive on earth. And also from those alive in Christ in heaven, who are of course also members of the body of Christ.

Heb 12:But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,...

Eph 3:14For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

Rev 5:And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
 
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myhopeisfound

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What are these verses supposed to prove? That Mary, the angels and the saints in Heaven can hear our prayers or that saints and angels in Heaven are praising and serving God? I still can't find this statement in the Bible.
 
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Panevino

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myhopeisfound said:
What are these verses supposed to prove? That Mary, the angels and the saints in Heaven can hear our prayers or that saints and angels in Heaven are praising and serving God? I still can't find this statement in the Bible.
Click to expand...

That they are members of the Body.
 
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myhopeisfound

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Panevino said:
That they nesisare members of the Body.
Click to expand...
I don't think any Protestant would dispute the communion of the saints(atleast not this one). What I am disputing is that idea of saints in heaven and angels hearing my prayers. What the RCC is doing is giving the saints, Mary and the angels a Godly attribute. They are not omniscient. That attribute belongs ONLY to God. When I die and go to heaven(YES! I am certain/assured of my salvation ) I will not "become God". That was the great lie in the garden. Genesis 3:5- "For God knows that you will eat of it and your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God..." This is from the Roman Catholic Catechism/460-The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

The verses the RCC are using never once say that the saints, Mary or the angels are HEARING the prayers being offered and to assume that would be reading into the passage something that is not there, but COULD BE a POSSIBILITY. It is a possibilty that it could be that the saints are hearing the prayers and offering them to God for us. But to argue that way would allow for endless possibilities.

If my mailman did not deliever my mail, I could believe that he stole it. I could believe he skipped my mailbox. I could believe anything, but until I search out my mailman and ask HIM, I can't assume just anything is truth. I can't assume what COULD BE a POSSIBILTY. SOOOO...I've searched God's Word and I have never found any verses telling me to pray to Mary or any other saint as an intercessor. I've never found any verses telling me to pray to an angel as an intercessor. I've ONLY found verses telling me to pray to the Father through Christ my Savior, the ONE Mediator. I've ONLY found verses directed to saints on earth to pray for saints on earth. So that's what I'm going to do, what is there. In print. I'm not going to do what COULD BE a POSSIBILTY.

When the Bible was compiled by the council directed by the Holy Spirit, when it was called "canon" (rule, measuring rod), they did not include any documents or letters telling me to pray to Mary, saints, angels...therefore, I don't look at any extra documnents as Scripture or as having authority over my beliefs. Christ taught me to pray. The apostles encourage me to pray in the Books they have written through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Praying TO saints, Mary, and angels is COMPLETELY absent from Christs prayers AND the apostles and OT prophets, as well.
 
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