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Protestants-biblically prove ONE Mediator

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Dark_Lite

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xfisherman said:
Dark lite,you and your church claimed so many things but which are not substantiated.Sorry I don't buy your claims.Its still one way to the Father thru Lord Jesus Christ with me.All other way are false way.
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It's always easier to claim something is unsubstantiated than it is to actually address the argument. For someone claiming that my arguments are unsubstantiated and then just saying "It's always this way no matter what," you have quite the ironic situation on your hands.
 
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myhopeisfound

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It it historical fact that the doctrine of purgatory wasn't established until 593AD.
It is historical fact that saints weren't canonized until 995AD.
It is historical fact that the rosary wasn't invented until 1090AD.
It is historical fact that the Apocrypha wasn't added to the Bible until 1546AD.
It is historical fact that the Immaculate Conception wasn't proclaimed by pope Pius IX until until 1854AD.

What? The way you have phrased this statement doesn't make sense.
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Sorry about the double negative. What I was stating was if the Church recognized the Scriptures as being inspired and compiled them as a "measuring rod" or "canon" as to what TRUTH is and what TRUTH is not, and if the Church acted infallibally in that decision, then why are you, Dark Lite, not trusting that "canon" as a sufficient source for authority?
Does that make more sense?


Canon means "measuring rod". The Church compiled these books under the guidance of God. I didn't just pull the word "canon" which means "measuring rod" out of purgatory...I mean, the air...


Ok, I get what you're saying. I actually wasn't aware there were that many. But, if these "23 different Churches" weren't afraid of being anathematized for disagreeing with Rome, I wonder how many would still be under the rule of Rome...? I know, it's a question that is not able to be answered.

Christ is the only way, truth and life. Protestant churches are in agreement here (NOT cults that claim they are Protestant, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, etc...).

Do you agree with the "separated brethren" statement?


So what are you Dark Lite? Catholic or Roman Catholic.


Knee-jerk reaction? Luther took awhile before officially deciding NOT to recant. It definately wasn't a "knee-jerk reaction". And did you just admit there were "abuses in the Catholic Church"? The Church cannot err...


I will use your statement: "Just because something [Dark Lite] cannot contradict something else [the Bible], does not mean that something else [the Bible] is a supreme authority." What does it mean then, if you are not allowed to contradict it?

The main problem with Sola Scriptura is its removal of the external interpretive authority (Tradition). Many Sola Scripturists are fond of claiming that Scripture is the ultimate divine measuring stick, and simply limits the authority of Tradition.
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When the decision was made as to what books were going to be part of the canon, the church used the Latin term, recipemus, which means "we receive". They received the fact that the books were the measuring rod of truth, that they were apostolic in authority and origin, and that the church would submit to their authority.

How can one dispute the authority of something that has authority over them?


Kinda like what the Roman Catholic Church did with the "traditions" that could not be backed up with Scripture. They just claimed that the Bible was silent on that particular point, threw out historical belief (except for certain pagan beliefs), and replaced Scripture with Tradition.

By all means, continue to do so. Problems arise when:
1. You assume that God's word is contained entirely within the Bible.
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What is contained in the Bible, is sufficient. Do you think God would have left out MAJOR doctrinal issues for this long?

2. You assume that you don't need an external interpretive authority to do so.
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I never said that.

So, we are really off the subject of this thread. Can I/should I pray to Mary and the saints? No, Christ specifically teaches us and gives us an outline for prayer. Nowhere in that prayer (or any other prayer included in the Bible) does it tell me to pray to saints or Mary as intercessors. I will pray as Christ taught because Christ and His word is my authority. So far, I've found that the praying to Mary, saints, angels(?) thing didn't start until around 600AD. So, imitate Christ or imitate something that came almost 570 years after Christ..?
 
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Purgatory didn't become Canon before then but it was always practiced and believed.

Similar to Christianity itself, it did not start when Constantine legalised it. It had always existed from Christ to that point. All Constantine did was say, yes, I legally recognise that Christianity is a religion and I afford it my legal protection. You are free to practice your religion.

This is the same with all the other practices you mention except the Apocrypha. No biblical scholar Catholic or Protestant will agree with you on that. It would be considered historical revisionism and intellectually dishonest to say the FIRST Bible did not include the Apocrypha.

The CC decided the contents of the FIRST ever Bible and it included the Apocrypha.

Protestants removed the Apocrypha after the Reformation because 'man chose to edit the word of God'.

Because you do not recognise Sacred Tradition as having existed prior to the Bible you will struggle to understand certain Catholic doctrines.

A majority of Protestant biblical scholars now agree with the CC on Sacred Tradition.

There is no such thing as the Roman Catholic Church.

There is only one Catholic Church. In the CC there are 10 Rites (way of worship), the Roman Rite is one. The Roman Rite is used in the Western Church.

There are also 22 Eastern Churches who can validly be called Catholic Churches, they use the other 9 Rites in worship and all are in communion with Rome. They all recognise the Pope as 'first among equals'. All use the same doctrine as the Western CC.

Roman Catholic was a derogatory term coined by Anglicans. Most Catholics do not mind the term, because we understand that not many Christians are aware of Church history.

I admit to slight discomfort because the term RCC leaves out our Eastern brothers and sisters who are also part of the CC.

Blessings
 
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Dark_Lite

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myhopeisfound said:
It it historical fact that the doctrine of purgatory wasn't established until 593AD.
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Purgatory has its roots in history. You will find this is true for all doctrines of the Catholic Church. If you're wondering why a "formal proclamation" of a doctrine doesn't show up until many centuries after the doctrine supposedly existed, then read on and it will be explained in my response about the Immaculate Conception.

It is historical fact that saints weren't canonized until 995AD.
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The canonization process was developed over time. Saintly veneration, however, was widespread by the 4th century, and there is significant evidence pointing towards even earlier dates (perhaps the 2nd century). Look up Sub tuum praesidium, a very early hymn to Mary.

It is historical fact that the rosary wasn't invented until 1090AD.
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So? It's a prayer. Not doctrinal.

It is historical fact that the Apocrypha wasn't added to the Bible until 1546AD.
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The correct term is deuterocanon, and this statement is factually incorrect. I suspect that whatever site you pulled this bit of information from said something along the lines of "the Catholic Church formally added the Apocrypha to their canon at the Council of Trent." What they most likely left out was that Trent actually officially closed the canon in the Catholic Church in response to the Reformers questioning the validity of books in the Bible (including certain NT works; Luther tried to remove a few).

This is how the Bible was formed:
  • The works that would become the NT were completed by the end of the first century.
  • The contents of the canon were disagreed upon by the ECFs. You will find different canon lists by different people between the 2nd and 5th centuries. They disagreed upon the contents of the OT (mostly the Deuterocanon, but some other works as well), and the contents of the NT. And as I said earlier, none of these canons are the 66 book Protestant canon.
  • Two different regional Councils held around the year 400, headed by Augustine, promulgated a 73 book canon. This canon included the 27 books of the NT, the OT canon that you know, and the deuterocanon as part of the OT.
  • Regional Councils are not binding on the entire Church. Nevertheless, this canon slowly spread throughout most of Christendom and became the de facto standard.
  • During the Reformation, the Catholic Church closed the canon, and included all but one of the deuterocanonical books. This made the Catholic canon 72 books. The original Protestant bibles also had the deuterocanon, although generally as a separate section between the OT and NT.
  • Later on, most Protestant bibles completely threw out the detuerocanon, creating the 66 book canon that exists in Protestant Bibles today.
  • The Orthodox maintain a 73 book canon that might not even be closed. Then there's the Ethiopian Orthodox (which are of the Oriental Orthodox persuasion) which have a huge canon. I think their book total is in the 90s or so.

It is historical fact that the Immaculate Conception wasn't proclaimed by pope Pius IX until until 1854AD.
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This is a misunderstanding of how the conciliar nature of the Church works. What is handed down is what is handed down. When people start questioning it and debating it, a Council is convened to reinforce doctrine. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception has its roots in history. Just go ask the Orthodox. They also believe Mary was without sin her entire life. Although their interpretation of the idea differs in certain fundamental aspects, there is a clear common "wellspring" from which the idea comes in these two most ancient of Churches.


Your phrasing makes sense now, yes. However, your argument does not. You are leaping from the idea that "the Church proclaimed the canon" to Sola Scriptura. Proclaiming a canon doesn't mean they proclaimed Sola Scriptura. It means that they proclaimed a canon, nothing more. The role that Scripture plays in the apostolic Churches is one of cementing the foundation. It is not the foundation.


Well, many of the eastern Churches came back into the Catholic Church at the Council of Florence in the 1400s, so apparently quite a few of them. A few (e.g. Marionites) never left communion with the Pope. Each of these 23 different particular Churches are headed up by a specific patriarch. All of them are in communion with the Pope. The Latin Church, which composes probably 90% of Catholicism, is headed by the Pope. The rest are headed by various people. The Pope technically has supreme authority over the other 22 churches as well, but in practice, they are mostly left to govern themselves autonomously.

Christ is the only way, truth and life. Protestant churches are in agreement here (NOT cults that claim they are Protestant, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, etc...).

Do you agree with the "separated brethren" statement?
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Yes. If I believe Catholicism has the fullness of the truth, then I must necessarily believe everyone else is wrong to some degree. But this isn't something unique to Catholicism. The Orthodox take an even harder stance on it and say that everyone else is "heterodox" and that they don't know at all the effectiveness of Christ outside his Church.

Confessional Lutherans take a stance similar to Catholicism in that they believe they are right and everyone else is wrong to some degree. Calvinists also take a similar stance on soteriology. They believe they are absolutely 100% correct that "the Gospel" is summarized by TULIP. But people that don't believe in Calvinism can also be saved (thanks to the way Calvinism works).

So what are you Dark Lite? Catholic or Roman Catholic.
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If you want to get fully technical, I am a Catholic of the Latin Church who worships according to the Roman Rite. I prefer the Extraordinary Form when it is sung or chanted, otherwise I prefer the Ordinary Form as expressed by Vatican II.

If you want be less formal, then I'm just Catholic. All Catholics are Catholic. Any further descriptor should point to particular church or rite of worship.

Knee-jerk reaction? Luther took awhile before officially deciding NOT to recant. It definately wasn't a "knee-jerk reaction". And did you just admit there were "abuses in the Catholic Church"? The Church cannot err...
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...In matters of faith and morals. Certain people within the Catholic Church have used its authority in influence to abuse power or participate in sin. The Anything that is run by humans is prone to sinfulness. The Church will not err when it proclaims doctrine and dogma through a Council or the Pope speaking ex cathedra. Beyond that, the potential for sinfulness exists.

I will use your statement: "Just because something [Dark Lite] cannot contradict something else [the Bible], does not mean that something else [the Bible] is a supreme authority." What does it mean then, if you are not allowed to contradict it?
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It means what it says. The Bible is a set of information that cannot be contradicted. Nothing more, nothing less. I've noticed a lot (all) of Sola Scriptura theology involves jumping to conclusions based on eisegesis. Many Protestants cite verses in the Bible that don't mention Scripture, or have nothing to do with Scripture, in support of Sola Scriptura. I've always found that odd.

Such is the case here. You are jumping from "the Bible is a set of information that cannot be contradicted" to "the Bible is the only supreme authority, and all other sources of information are subservient to it." It fails to consider the possibility of there being another source of information that can also not be contradicted, which would be on an equal "level" with the Bible.


No one is disputing the authority of Scripture. People are disputing the idea that there is no need of an external interpretive authority, or that the Bible is the only source of infallible information.


I believe I have made a sufficient case with the historical evidence that shows this is not the case. The development of the canon alone is a major argument against this.

What is contained in the Bible, is sufficient. Do you think God would have left out MAJOR doctrinal issues for this long?
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The premise is Sola Scriptura. The conclusion is that because a major doctrine is not in the Bible, it must be wrong, or a pious opinion. If the premise falls apart, so does the conclusion.

I never said that.
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Then what is your external interpretive authority? For Catholics, Orthodox, and the whole of Christianity before the Reformation, it is Tradition. For Protestants, it's: themselves, their pastor, their denomination.


As I said, the divide always comes down to Sola Scriptura. It is the dividing line between Catholic and Protestant theology. You must look at Catholic theology through the eyes of Scripture + Tradition in order to understand the theology of the Saints. If you look at it through the eyes of Sola Scriptura, it will make no sense.

I've already told you twice that much of the theology behind the communion of Saints is explicated outside the boundaries of the Bible, and that you must turn to the writings of the ECFs and the Church in order to get a full understanding.

The only thing left to talk about is Sola Scriptura as the dividing line. If you are unwilling to discuss that, then there isn't really anything left to discuss.

So far, I've found that the praying to Mary, saints, angels(?) thing didn't start until around 600AD. So, imitate Christ or imitate something that came almost 570 years after Christ..?
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Sub tuum praesidium. Second century at the earliest. Paintings of various Christian figures found in Roman catacombs where the Christians used to meet. Also very early. Saintly veneration and prayer was around long before the year 600.
 
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xfisherman

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I wonder what Jesus will say if you had told him while he was still alive.
"I am going to worship and pray to your mother Mary"
"I am going to pray to all the Saints"
"I am going to pray to Angels"

Pray tell me what his answer will be.
 
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There's a very simple answer to this Mary controversy.

Matt. 12:46-50 While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. Someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.” But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, “Behold My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.”
 
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BroIgnatius

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This is silly to argue with Protestants, who have limited understanding of scripture and a bigotry against Jesus' Church. St. Paul said we are not to be involved in unproductive argumentation. He also said to shun those who do not follow the Tradition of Jesus' Church.

Enough already.
 
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myhopeisfound

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Wow, someones a little angry. I can't speak for Dark Lite but atleast he/she tries to explain his/her faith instead of just condemning the other person. Do you not believe in the Great Commission? Spreading the gospel of my/your Savior Jesus Christ? Not that I'm trying to convert to catholicism or trying to convert an RC to protestantism, or anything. I'm just trying to understand others beliefs which is why I'm on a forum and not just taking protestant books and learning about RC beliefs. So chill out. I've learned more from Dark Lite about the RCC than my RC friends even know they are supposed to believe. They can't answer my questions and when they do, it's either wrong or very vague. Maybe instead of getting mad, you could state why you believe what you do...or are you just a robot believing what you are told to believe? Some people just have a thirst for knowledge. THAT'S WHY THIS IS A FORUM. It's a place to discuss things and sometimes it gets heated, but only b/c both sides have a passion. And for me, its my Savior. I want to know everything that has to do with Him and His word. Unfortunately, we as sinful humans will never know until we are with Him, and maybe we won't know then, but until then, I will learn as much as God wills me to learn. And I've learned not to "shun" people who do not agree with me. I don't claim to know the "secret things of God" and I'm not a theologian, so be patient and if you want to start quoting scripture then I got a bunch for you on anger and love.



Dark lite,
Thankyou for causing me to dig into my faith.
 
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Dark_Lite

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xfisherman said:
I wonder what Jesus will say if you had told him while he was still alive.
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A subtle implication that Jesus is on your side and that I'm somehow going against Jesus by believing in what I believe.

How quaint.

"I am going to worship and pray to your mother Mary"
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Catholics don't worship Mary.

"I am going to pray to all the Saints"
"I am going to pray to Angels"
Click to expand...

Do you even understand what "praying to Saints" means?

Pray tell me what his answer will be.
Click to expand...

Again, how quaint.
 
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xfisherman

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xfisherman said:
I wonder what Jesus will say if you had told him while he was still alive.
"I am going to worship and pray to your mother Mary"
"I am going to pray to all the Saints"
"I am going to pray to Angels"

Pray tell me what his answer will be.
Click to expand...

Well Darklite I am not trying to go for a play on words or sementics,but I tell you what the Lord Jesus would probably have said:

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God is one LORD:
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Deu 6:6 And these words which I command thee this day, shall be in thy heart:
Deu 6:7 And thou shalt teach them diligently to thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thy house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
Deu 6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thy hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thy eyes.
Deu 6:9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
 
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BroIgnatius

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myhopeisfound said:
Wow, someones a little angry
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Wow, someone is more than a little presumptuous and arrogant.

I am not angry, dear. I am just following the dictates of the Bible. Remember the Bible -- you know, the book that Christians are to use as a guidebook, the book Christians are to follow.

St. Paul probably knows just a tad more than you do about how Christians are to act and about the Great Commission. So chill.

2 Thess 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.
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And Jesus said:



P.S. You may want to learn the English language. There is no such word as "he/she".
 
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myhopeisfound

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Wow, someone is more than a little presumptuous and arrogant.
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I'm sorry I said that. The way you phrased things made you sound angry. I apologize if you were not at all angry.

I am not angry, dear. I am just following the dictates of the Bible. Remember the Bible -- you know, the book that Christians are to use as a guidebook, the book Christians are to follow.
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I am aware of God's word, the Bible. I read it daily.

St. Paul probably knows just a tad more than you do about how Christians are to act and about the Great Commission. So chill.
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You are correct. I never once claimed to know more than Paul.

P.S. You may want to learn the English language. There is no such word as "he/she".
Click to expand...
[/quote]

I am aware of that. I just did not want to presume that Dark Lite was a man OR presume Dark Lite was a woman. I was just being polite.

Also, I have "[learned] the English language". I would not be able to post things on this website if I did not know the English language.

You still seem angry. If you read your responses to what I posted, you will see that. You sound very hateful. When I posted that you seem angry, that was posted as an opinion. I'm sorry if it made you angry when you initially were not. You could have just posted back that you weren't. You could have posted back something a bit more pleasant instead of trying to insult my Bible reading and studies. Like I said, I'm here to learn more about my Savior, Jesus Christ. I do not claim to know everything and I'm trying to learn more about what you believe as a Roman Catholic. You, posting demeaning things, are not going to help me, the other person on the other end, learn anything except that some Roman Catholics are angry. (Except for the one's that actually show love by answering questions.) Like I said, I could go to Protestant books and find the answers to my questions OR I could just ask a Roman Catholic. I'd rather do the later, so I get the correct answer. If you can't answer my questions, then please do not post responses to me. I'm here to learn, not be degraded. If what I am posting makes you angry, then please let me know.

I am well aware of the verses you quoted. Now it's my turn.

"Brothers, if anyone is caught up in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted."
Galatians 6:1


"A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger." Proverbs 15:1


And Jesus said, "You who have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.' But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to jugdment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire."
Matthew 5:21-22


"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, 'Render true judgments, show kindness and mercy to one another..."
Zechariah 7:9


"Let brotherly love continue."
Hebrews 13:1

BroIgnatius,
These verses are not intended to cast judgment on you personally. I need them as much as anyone else. Once again, I apologize for assuming you were angry.
 
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lindart

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Incariol, what a beautiful quote that you found! I never heard of this saint so I will look him up. May I ask if you are or were a Catholic as I was? Thank you for your post!
 
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BroIgnatius

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myhopeisfound said:
You still seem angry. If you read your responses to what I posted, you will see that. You sound very hateful.
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You are still committing the crime of rash judgment. I am not angry, nor did I word things in a angry or hateful way. Perhaps you should try not to be so presumptuous and deal with the actual issue instead of judging my state of mind.

What I posted was biblical truth, not my opinion.


Telling the truth will seem angry to people who do not wish to hear it. Jesus was not always nice and I am sure those around him thought he was hateful. He was not. His love brought him to say harsh things at times.

Love and kindness means "tough love" at times. Jesus was not a 60s flower child. St. James called the people he was arguing with ignoramuses. Jesus, in Matthew 25 used good old fashion name-calls, some of the worse insults that could be lobbed to a 1st century Jew.

All this because I quoted the advice of St. Paul. Sheesh.

Now, are we going to continue this nonsense?

P.S. If you know English, then you know that the rules of grammar state that when the sex of the subject is not known, the male pronoun is used.
 
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myhopeisfound

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You are still committing the crime of rash judgment. I am not angry, nor did I word things in a angry or hateful way. Perhaps you should try not to be so presumptuous and deal with the actual issue instead of judging my state of mind.
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Ok, BroIgnatius, I'm sorry. It's difficult when you are reading something as opposed to talking with a person directly.

What I posted was biblical truth, not my opinion.
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I never said it wasn't Biblical truth.


Telling the truth will seem angry to people who do not wish to hear it. Jesus was not always nice and I am sure those around him thought he was hateful. He was not. His love brought him to say harsh things at times.
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Definately agree with you here.



I agree with you here, so what is your point? That's the issue, BroIgnatius. I agree with you (depending on what the topic is, of course). I'm sure you believe as Christ said. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. I'm sure you believe the things you recite in the Apostles Creed. As do I. So instead of "shunning" me, why don't you just simply explain what you believe on the topics we DON'T agree on? YOU don't know who's saved on this forum and who is not. Why would you not carry out the Great Commission to everyone you come in contact with? Just because there is a little tension here and there, doesn't meant that person who disagrees with you is condemned. What if someone finally saw the TRUTH because of something you explained to them?

All this because I quoted the advice of St. Paul. Sheesh.
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Not at all.

Now, are we going to continue this nonsense?
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Only if you want to.


P.S. If you know English, then you know that the rules of grammar state that when the sex of the subject is not known, the male pronoun is used.
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I am aware of that. I told you I was being polite...and politically correct. I'm usually not worried about being "PC", but I figured since some people get offended easily I'd try to prevent that on Christian Forums. Thank you for keeping tabs on my Grammar, though. I'm sure you'll find a lot of mistakes if you really want to. You could be my personal Grammar police man/woman. I mean, policeman. Now, since you are not sitting here with me I will let you know this is silly sarcasm, not angry sarcasm.

Now, since you love Protestant questions (silly sarcasm) I have an "easy answer" question. Dark Lite mentioned that Praying to Mary and the Saints is not really found in Scripture. It's mainly found in Church Tradition. I think this is what he was getting at. SO...can you give me a few good references (that are for the folks who have NOT attended seminary) that explain what apostles in Jesus' time or shortly after Jesus' time taught the doctrine of praying to Mary and the Saints? I'm really trying to understand this. I read the link that Dark Lite gave, but I'd really like more information. Thank you in advance if you are able to help.
 
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myhopeisfound

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Love and kindness means "tough love" at times. Jesus was not a 60s flower child. St. James called the people he was arguing with ignoramuses.
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My brother used to call me an "ignoramus" all the time when we were younger and guess what...? My brother's name is James. I'm not joking.

I just figured I'd post something to lighten up the thread. I'm serious though...the above is all true!
 
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Bob Carabbio

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"Can anyone help me with a tough-to-beat defense of ONE Mediator?"

Simplest thing in the world: 1 Tim 2:
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Case closed.

"He believes its okay to pray to Mary and use saints as intercessors."

Except that an "Intercessor" isn't a "Mediator" - so no immediate problem there.

The PROBLEM with the Romanist practice of approaching Mary, or "Saints", to get their requests "handled favorably", is that it Denigrates the CHARACTER of Jesus, and decreases the "Concept" of God Himself.

It teaches that Jesus HIMSELF won't necessarily do what you want, but if He's "arm-twisted" by the "Saints" and PARTICULARLY by Mom - your chances of getting what you want are better. He wouldn't turn down His Mom, after all!!!! She "Arm-twisted" Him into helping out at the wedding, don'cha know!!!!

But the REAL message is that Jesus, and Father God DON'T REALLY "Love you" with a perfect love, and don't "really understand" your REAL wants and needs - and must to be "Advised" by "deceased humans", and Mom in order to "Get it right".

In order for a person to be "Canonized", TWO miracles - attributed to praying TO THEM have got to be demonstrated in a manner acceptable to the Catholic hierarchy. That's to say that after they die Physically, the potential "Saint" has got to PROVE his "CLOUT" in the "heavenly courts" by "getting things done" on our behalf. The message is that God wouldn't answer the prayer in Jesus' name - but when a "Saint with clout" jumps in - then he'll get 'er done!!!

JP2, as I recall has two "Potential" miracles (healings) - and they're waiting to see if they're gonna "stay good" before he's approved for canonization. The first one (Sister Marie Simon-Pierre) is rumored to have gone bad already, but the political pressure for his Canonization is huge.

The conceptual PROBLEM with this should be totally OBVIOUS, even to the most casual observer. Jesus said to pray to FATHER in HIS name (John 14:13,14). The Catholic Church teaches the INSUFFICIENCY of that approach, and proposes its own "Work around" to increase our chances of getting what we want, since praying according to Jesus' instructions apparently isn't "Enough".

Simple as that.
 
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Panevino

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all of above is a clear misrepresentation of Catholic doctrine.

Consider
Job42:that is] right, as my servant Job [hath]. 8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you [after your] folly, in that ye have not spoken of me [the thing which is] right, like my servant Job......10 And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before.

James 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Mat8:5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.7 .........

The body of Christ prays for eachother, this includes those who are now in heaven. Rev6:9-10, luke22:30/rev4:4 &5:8 , tob12:11
They certainly play a role and interact with Jesus in a subordinate way in relation to those on earth. All without "denigrating" the Son and the Father
And obviously not promoting a message that God doesn't really love you!
 
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steve_bakr

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