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wynd said:That's my point. Even though the thief was never literally baptized or literally went to confession, God made it and the thief's salvation possible through ways known to Him only.
Then where does God state that the successor recieves the same authourity to forgive sin?JCrawf said:Apostolic succession does not work like heraldry. The ones who succeed the Apostles may be considered spiritually children of the particular Apostle, but they are not usually biological children. The person who succeeded St. Peter in his chair is not St. Peter's biological son. But he may have been taught about Jesus by St. Peter or one of the Apostles. And the one who succeeds St. Peter's successor was likely to be taught by either an apostle or a disciple of an apostle, and so on.
The Apostles were first given this ability to choose successor by Christ, and this ability was then passed on to those chosen to succeed the Apostles by the Apostles. And so the process of ordination has worked ever since. It doesn't mean that a person has to study in Rome under the recent Pope to be ordained, but that those ordained by the Church are to teach the faith and those that pursue ordination go through the process ordained by the Church. In a sense, Apostolic succession notes the power of the Church to organize as the body of Christ by the power of Christ, who first ordained the Apostles to such a task.
Pax Tecum,
John
Pandersen said:Then where does God state that the successor recieves the same authourity to forgive sin?
Thank you. I hope I did not come off as disrespectful. I truely wanted to better understand.Veritas_et_Puritas said:Hi Pandersen! Just a caution, but this thread is on the verge of becoming a debate, and I wouldn't want you to get into trouble. If you have more questions, I'd suggest maybe choosing an OBOB member that you feel might be able to answer them and maybe sending them a PM.But just be mindful that the Tradition of the Church was not all written down (as even John himself states in 20:30!) - Scripture is the basis for a Tradition that is full of many spiritual gems, but it is not the only source of that Tradition. As Catholics, we are very mindful of the practises of the early Christians, because they illustrate to us what the people who were closest to Christ and the Apostles believed. Now, two thousand years later, it is easy to look back and say, "they were off their rocker; this is what Christ really intended!" But we maintain that there is a wisdom there that must be respected.
Again, I'd invite you to PM an OBOB member who you feel would be able to help answer your questions more in depth.(NewMan99 seems to be a favourite these days )
Peace in Christ.
Pandersen said:Then where does God state that the successor recieves the same authourity to forgive sin?
Rising_Suns said:Please remember there are 3 conditions for a sin to be mortal in Catholic doctrine;
1. Grave matter
2. Full knowledge
3. Full consent
#2 is an important condition in this context. In order for a Protestant to commit a sin that is mortally wounding to the soul, they must have full knowledge of its gravity and still choose to commit it anyway. In some cases, this knowledge only comes by being Catholic (i.e., going to Church on sunday is an example commonly used). In other cases, one cannot plead invisible ignorance if the mortal sin violates something deeply ingrained in our moral conscience (murder or rape, for example).
That being said, if a Protestant is sincerely sorry for his sins and asks for forgiveness, God will not deny him graces that is proportionate to his contrition. To suggest otherwise is silly, and contraditctory to the Church's teachings.
However, something to always remember, is that only through confession can we know with aboslute certainty that we have been totally forgiven and absolved of our sins. Outside of confession, we depend on the level of contrition/desire in our hearts. But through confession, God will perfectly restore our souls to grace every time, so long as we are contrite and fullfill our penance.
Blessings,
-Davide
wynd said:I think this is a two-point issue, much like Baptism.
Therefore, it would seem that although the sacraments are in most cases necessary, God can and does work without them in cases of necessity. The normative way for forgiveness of sins is confession to and absolution from a priest in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit -- but God, being God, can surely choose to forgive those who cannot for whatever reasons receive the sacrament of confession.
- Our Lord told us to be baptized.
- Our Lord took the repentant thief with him without the thief being baptized.
God of Mercy: When I was investigating Catholicism via the web, I found one person who I trusted and respected, and asked my questions via pm. This is only a suggestion.
Michelle
Yep.God_of_Mercy said:Does one loss their invincible ignorance once they understand Catholic doctrine or recognize it as true?
God_of_Mercy said:Does one loss their invincible ignorance once they understand Catholic doctrine or recognize it as true?
plainswolf said:Remember that this was still under the old covenant when the thief died. The Church had not yet been born because Christ had not yet died and rose from the dead, nor ascended into heaven yet.
JCrawf said:I don't know about that. Wasn't the Church already forming, and thus at least in its earliest stages of birth when Christ called the Apostles to him and began his ministry?
Pax Tecum,
John
plainswolf said:Pentacost.. But either way the thief had perfect contrition, faith, hope and charity as displayed in his words to Christ.
JCrawf said:Yes, Pentacost may be the official brith of the Church, but the teachings of Christ and all the aspects that one could call the "embryo" of the Church were there in Christ's ministry. Moreso, baptism first began with St. John and was perfected in Christ. The main aspect for the "good thief" is that he is an example of baptism by desire. His confession was to the High Priest, which Christ was before even being born, was also while living as well as in death, and certainly after the resurrection and ascenscion into heaven. Christ was, is, and always will be high priest. It is from him that the sacraments have salvific power. So certainly, face to face with Christ is to experience the sacramentality of salvation first hand.
Pax Tecum,
John
plainswolf said:But again, either way, the thief displayed something quite extraordinary, and "extraordinary" is the key - perfect act of contrition, faith, hope and charity.
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