Protestants and Mortal sin

[Miss Shelby]

The only rituals I can recollect Christ giving us was Communion and Baptism. Some early Jewish Christians (Peter included) were condemned by Paul for forcing early christians to become jews and undergo the ritual of circumcision.

All sins are effectively choosing your own way over God's way, and any unrepented sin can sever our relationship with him. We are the people who choose to group sins into different categories.

In my opinion, the sacraments were added by man to make us feel better and to try and ensure repentance was genuine. By saying that it demeans the sacraments by saying they are not needed is just as insulting as saying you're not forgiven without them. If you're not truely sorry for your sins, the sacrament won't make a difference.

God forgives our sins because Christ paid the price for them. We activate his forgiveness by repenting. While some act of penance may make us feel better or prove our remorse, our sin is already forgiven because a price has been paid for it.

The Sacraments were not added, each was instituted by Jesus Christ Himself. Each Sacrament can be found in the Gospel accounts, this is where Catholicism began, and Catholicism lives to this day, despite efforts tear her down. Jesus said we would face persecution, mockery and nay-sayery. But, 2000 years later, the seven sacraments instituted by Christ are still very much alive.

 

[PETE_]

The Sacraments were not added, each was instituted by Jesus Christ Himself. Each Sacrament can be found in the Gospel accounts, this is where Catholicism began, and Catholicism lives to this day, despite efforts tear her down. Jesus said we would face persecution, mockery and nay-sayery. But, 2000 years later, the seven sacraments instituted by Christ are still very much alive.

When did Christ confess to a priest?

 

[Miss Shelby]

When did Christ confess to a priest?

Jesus IS the priest. He gave the power to forgive sins to the Apostles and the descendants of the apostles, which is why priests can absolve sin.

“Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained” (Jn 20:22-23).


Jesus gave his apostles the Holy Spirit as the source of their authority to forgive sins in Jesus’ name. It is true that Jesus commanded all his followers to forgive one another when someone sinned against them (Mt 6:14). But Jesus also gave his apostles a special authority to “bind and loose” or to forgive anyone’s sins in God’s name.

 

[She]

When did Christ confess to a priest?

Trick question.

Jesus was born without sin.

 

[Miss Shelby]

Good catch, She.

Michelle

 

[wynd]

I think this is a two-point issue, much like Baptism.

1. Our Lord told us to be baptized.
2. Our Lord took the repentant thief with him without the thief being baptized.

Therefore, it would seem that although the sacraments are in most cases necessary, God can and does work without them in cases of necessity. The normative way for forgiveness of sins is confession to and absolution from a priest in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit -- but God, being God, can surely choose to forgive those who cannot for whatever reasons receive the sacrament of confession.

 

[Rising_Suns]

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[JCrawf]

I'm pretty sure that God can forgive sins.

Yes, and God works through the Sacrament of Reconciliation (A.K.A. Confession). As a Methodist, do you not understand the sacramentality of holiness? And part of that is coming to God for forgiveness. This for Catholics is through the Sacrament of Reconciliation. The priest is in the role of Christ. He doen't replace Christ, but is there as an "amassador," so to speak.

Pax Tecum,

John

 

[JCrawf]

I will say, if a person is investigating the Catholic Faith, and he/she discovers that they believe Catholicsim to be the truth, they have a moral obligation to convert.

Indeed. Fulfilled that obligation over a year ago. Former Methodist, so I guess I can understand some of the OP's confusions. But personally, the more I learned about John Wesley and the origins of the Holiness movement, the more closer I was drawn to the Eucharist and the sacramentality of the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, the Methodist churches today are not quite the same as the groups that John and Charles Wesley had first envisioned. At that time, John Wesley was so devout to a sacramental vision of holiness that he had even been attacked by other Protestants as being swayed by Catholic views, and possibly even becoming a Catholic.

Pax Tecum,

John

 

[JCrawf]

I have a priest. His name is Jesus. I confess my sin to Him, and he the Most High Priest.

So do I, and he, through the Sacrament of Ordination, has called people we call priests to act in his place on earth. In alter Christi, they are able to forgive sins by the power of Christ the Most High Priest - the "priest of priests," if one would call him that.

Baptism is definately commanded... but necessary? The thief on the cross was not baptised yet saved by Christ.

The thief on the cross had a baptism of desire. His conversion on the cross next to Jesus saved him. To say that the thief was not baptised is not quite true.

Pax Tecum,

John

 

[JCrawf]

When did Christ confess to a priest?

Not only is Christ the High Priest, but he was sinless. What need would Christ have had for Confession, being that he had no sins to confess?

Pax Tecum,

John

 

[AMDG]

Please remember there are 3 conditions for a sin to be mortal in Catholic doctrine;

1. Grave matter
2. Full knowledge
3. Full consent

#2 is an important condition in this context. In order for a Protestant to commit a sin that is mortally wounding to the soul, they must have full knowledge of its gravity and still choose to commit it anyway. In some cases, this knowledge only comes by being Catholic (i.e., going to Church on sunday is an example commonly used). In other cases, one cannot plead invisible ignorance if the mortal sin violates something deeply ingrained in our moral conscience (murder or rape, for example).

That being said, if a Protestant is sincerely sorry for his sins and asks for forgiveness, God will not deny him graces that is proportionate to his contrition. To suggest otherwise is silly, and contraditctory to the Church's teachings.

However, something to always remember, is that only through confession can we know with aboslute certainty that we have been totally forgiven and absolved of our sins. Outside of confession, we depend on the level of contrition/desire in our hearts. But through confession, God will perfectly restore our souls to grace every time, so long as we are contrite and fullfill our penance.

Blessings,

-Davide

Just popping in to say and now popping out again.

 

[JCrawf]

I think this is a two-point issue, much like Baptism.

1. Our Lord told us to be baptized.
2. Our Lord took the repentant thief with him without the thief being baptized.

Therefore, it would seem that although the sacraments are in most cases necessary, God can and does work without them in cases of necessity. The normative way for forgiveness of sins is confession to and absolution from a priest in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit -- but God, being God, can surely choose to forgive those who cannot for whatever reasons receive the sacrament of confession.

Consider also the reason the Sacraments are sacramental. The main aspect is that they point to and bring a person to God. The Eucharist is the re-presentation of our Lord's sacrifice, which is salvific. Therefore, the thief participated, in a sense, in the Eucharist. Confession is bringing your sins before God and admitting sin. The thief, in a similar sense, brought these things before Christ on the cross, so thus participated in Confession while also being crucified.

Thus is why I say that it is not quite true to say the thief did not in some way participate in the sacraments.

Pax Tecum,

John

 

[HisKid1973]

I,m suprised no one brought these verses up.
1 John 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[PETE_]

Jesus IS the priest. He gave the power to forgive sins to the Apostles and the descendants of the apostles, which is why priests can absolve sin.

“Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained” (Jn 20:22-23).


Jesus gave his apostles the Holy Spirit as the source of their authority to forgive sins in Jesus’ name. It is true that Jesus commanded all his followers to forgive one another when someone sinned against them (Mt 6:14). But Jesus also gave his apostles a special authority to “bind and loose” or to forgive anyone’s sins in God’s name.

So where is it said that this authourity would pass on to their children?

 

[JCrawf]

I,m suprised no one brought these verses up.
1 John 1:[4-10]

Yes, this is an important passage for the Sacrament of Reconciliation, as well as the necessity of confession in general. However, it does not address the necessity for confession to a priest, which seems to be the underlying question.

At that time the sacrament was really just forming. If I remember correctly, one of the first formations of the sacrament was that it was only reserved for major mortal sins, such as murder, and carried a heavy life-long pennance. The sins that we would more or less call venial today were often confessed between fellow Christains, and the practice of doing this was considered beneficial.

Eventually, the sacrament became more open and led to what we call today frequent confession. Now, even venial sins can be confessed to the priest, and much lighter pennances are recieved according to as the priest sees fit for the individual's spiritual growth. Today, the minimum required times a person must go to confession is once a year.

As for the importance of the priest in Confession, it has to do with understanding the role of the priest in alter Christi, as well as apostolic succession.

Pax Tecum,

John

 

[JCrawf]

So where is it said that this authourity would pass on to their children?

Apostolic succession does not work like heraldry. The ones who succeed the Apostles may be considered spiritually children of the particular Apostle, but they are not usually biological children. The person who succeeded St. Peter in his chair is not St. Peter's biological son. But he may have been taught about Jesus by St. Peter or one of the Apostles. And the one who succeeds St. Peter's successor was likely to be taught by either an apostle or a disciple of an apostle, and so on.

The Apostles were first given this ability to choose successor by Christ, and this ability was then passed on to those chosen to succeed the Apostles by the Apostles. And so the process of ordination has worked ever since. It doesn't mean that a person has to study in Rome under the recent Pope to be ordained, but that those ordained by the Church are to teach the faith and those that pursue ordination go through the process ordained by the Church. In a sense, Apostolic succession notes the power of the Church to organize as the body of Christ by the power of Christ, who first ordained the Apostles to such a task.

Pax Tecum,

John

 

[wynd]

Consider also the reason the Sacraments are sacramental. The main aspect is that they point to and bring a person to God. The Eucharist is the re-presentation of our Lord's sacrifice, which is salvific. Therefore, the thief participated, in a sense, in the Eucharist. Confession is bringing your sins before God and admitting sin. The thief, in a similar sense, brought these things before Christ on the cross, so thus participated in Confession while also being crucified.

Thus is why I say that it is not quite true to say the thief did not in some way participate in the sacraments.

Pax Tecum,

John

That's my point. Even though the thief was never literally baptized or literally went to confession, God made it and the thief's salvation possible through ways known to Him only.

 

[JCrawf]

That's my point. Even though the thief was never literally baptized or literally went to confession, God made it and the thief's salvation possible through ways known to Him only.

Maybe, but the point is that they can be understood in a sacramental way, such as Baptism by desire and, in a sense, the last rites. For Jesus, as high priest did, in a sense, initiate last rites to the thief who had confessed to him and sought our Lord's forgiveness. Though the Sacraments were not administered in the common way, they still were administered through Christ, who is the power within the Sacraments and the reason they are sacramental in the first place.

Pax Tecum,

John

 

[Miss Shelby]

So where is it said that this authourity would pass on to their children?

Here is a good resource which will answer all of the questions, or most, that you could have. You can start with tract 1 or just jump straight to the tract that answers your particular question. I think these tracts give a detailed overview of all of the Sacraments, that is a detailed explanation of, at least in part, the historical roots of Christianity. It's where I lift my info from, so you may as well have the link. http://www.catholic-jhb.org.za/tracts/tract_1.htm

Michelle