Protestant Thought and the One True Church

[ej]

It's not that people don't want reconciliation, it's just that it is impossible. The two are too different to ever become one. Like oil and water, or more like fire and oil. They will always spark a conflaguration when they get together.

I disagree for many reasons, mainly personal experience.

1 - I have protestant family who are keen to learn about Catholicism, and accept it if not adopt it

2 - I have Protestant friends both here, in my social life, and amongst colleagues. A 'conflaguration' has never been sparked, they do not judge me by their prejudices but by my virtues and flaws

3 - I believe that God comes before man. Faith before doctrine

4 - I believe that the Holy Spirit will bring unity, and that this canot be achieved by people believing reconciliation to be 'impossible'

 

[Lotar]

It would take too long to dissect your post and I have no wish to do so.
But to answer your question briefly, the very first point you postulate makes little sense to me.

I agree that the church is a group of believers, and not a building. I imagine every Catholic on this board will agree with us.

You do not believe that the RCC is the "One True Church". If not, then please correct all the other Catholics that repeatedly say so. I know you believe in the Church as in the body of believers as well. I will make this clearer in my paper.

But to suggest that this group of believers did not appear on Earth until 1500 years after the birth of Christ puzzles me.

I never suggested or implied this. Catholics are believers, so are part of the Church.

Jesus and His apostles set up a Church. It was not a building, it was a group of believers with Peter at the head.

Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.

Another quote going into my revised version. But again, this is arguing with my reasoning, not my content; which is against the request of my OP and forum rules. This will be posted in the IDD at a later date, at which time you can argue with it all you want.

What exactly are you trying to discuss here? We do not disagree with your statements, but the fact that you accuse ALL Catholics of believing something to the contrary.

Have I not stated what I want to discuss? Most likely this thread will be shut down, and I will have to start a new one that will flow in the same manner. My purpose is to intelligently improve and develop my arguement, not debate it with Catholics, which is why I posted it here and not in the IDD. Please for once respect this.

 

[ej]

You do not believe that the RCC is the "One True Church". If not, then please correct all the other Catholics that repeatedly say so. I know you believe in the Church as in the body of believers as well. I will make this clearer in my paper.

It is. But it is not a building... it is a body of believers who have remained united since the Church was founded. Why is this difficult to understand?

Have I not stated what I want to discuss?

No... at least not simply enough for me to understand

Please respect that my mind is simple... accept my apologies for misunderstanding, and tell me again

 

[Lotar]

It is. But it is not a building... it is a body of believers who have remained united since the Church was founded. Why is this difficult to understand?

I never said you thought it was a building, where does this come from?

No... at least not simply enough for me to understand

Please respect that my mind is simple... accept my apologies for misunderstanding, and tell me again

First, in an attempt to keep from getting flamed and bad rep points, I am going to try to explain the purpose of this thread. I notice that 90% of the threads in the IDD devolve into the same couple arguements. So I am attempting to write a comprehensive position for my side of the most common of these debates, so that hopefully they can be ended quickly and return to the origonal subject.

I would like it if we discussed the topic, and I could get some input on how to improve this short work I've put together.

 

[ej]

Maybe I'll come back once you've 'prepared,' Lotar

 

[Lotar]

Maybe I'll come back once you've 'prepared,' Lotar

Wait until it's in the IDD

 

[ZiSunka]

Maybe I'll come back once you've 'prepared,' Lotar

How typical. The biggest sluggers in any fight make one last personal attack then leave, while claiming that they aren't giving up, they're just being kind to the person they just punched.

 

[ej]

Wait until it's in the IDD

I look forward to it Lotar.

You're a great member here, I hope you stay true to yourself and don't contrive your arguments too far. Your spontanaity and passion are the most attractive things about your posts.

That's supposed to be a good thing btw, though I'm sure 'lambslove' will twist it into an insult in an attempt to make me look evil

 

[Terri]

1 - You will continue to be flamed if you group an enormous number of people together and inform them (wrongly) of what they believe

2 - Scripture interpretation you could probably take any pieve of scripture and extrapolate / interpret to your favour. This doesn't impress anyone.

3 - If you want to understand, post a thread in OBOB. There are some gifted teachers there who will answer your questions, and wil not flame unless you attack unnecessarily

4 - The only reason I can think to post such a thread in P/R/E is to join forces in ignorance with other Protestants. This will neither bring unity, nor breed understanding, IMHO.

Well Emma I have a lot more respect for the P/R/E forum members that sat quietly by as the future of non-denominational churches was arrogantly discussed in OBOB than I do for people that come in here at the mere mention of an opinion different from the catholic one to threaten flaming us, which is by the way against the rules of this forum.

Why is it I feel my reputation rating being lowered as I speak.

 

[Ken]

Lotar, one of the difficuties I have with the dual-authority model of the RC church is that there doesn't seem to be any specific content to the "Tradition" end of things....
The Catechism states:
"This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes"

I mean, if Tradition "transmits to every generation all that she herself is, (AND!) all that she believes, it seems there ought to be a concrete list of these things... and if the Church posseses the words of the Apostles, as passed down orally, which are not recounted in the Scriptures themselves, it would seem to be an easy thing to reproduce for everyone what exactly these traditions are....

I would be interested in your thoughts and input in regard to this line of thought....

blessings

 

[Lotar]

Updated:


Protestant Thought and the One True Church



We believe in absolute truth, and conscience is flawed. We don't follow our conscience; we follow what the bible teaches. Yet some points in the bible aren't clear-cut, so there will be disagreements, i.e. there's biblical support for predestination and there is also for free will. Christ is the authority for what is truth, I'm sure some day He'll sort it all out for us. It's not really that important; it's not going to effect our salvation or how we live our lives. We debate over the means in which an end result occurs, not the end result itself, which is the only truly important part. God is not a God of confusion, I agree, but He also does not spell everything out for us either.



It is impossible for us to fully understand God. We, as Christians, understand what is required of us in order to be saved; everything else is comparatively unimportant. I believe that we should strive to understand God's word to the best of our ability. It is our faith, not the Pope's or the Church's. It's our responsibility to learn, understand, and teach.







When Jesus, or the apostles speak of "the Church", they are talking about the body of believers. Not some certain organization, or building. Christ never gave His authority to the Church.



1 Timothy 3:15
I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long; but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.

This is a verse that is commonly used by Catholics to point out that the church has the fullness of truth. In this passage Paul is describing how one is to behave in the house of God. The Church is the entire body of believers, which is the pillar and support of the truth, but he gives no description here of how that truth is arrived at, or even what that truth is. The bible never says we have "the fullness of truth", it merely says "the truth".


John 1:17
For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

In this respect, all true Christian churches do have the truth. This truth is Jesus Christ, and the knowledge and faith that He died for our sins, so that we might be saved.



John 16:13
"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

Notice that the verse reads "you", not "the church". Seems to me that common sense shows this verse is referring to individuals. He gave us His word to go by, and our minds to discern with. Some things He was ambiguous on, and left us to ponder. His word, my discernment create what I believe. Christ decides what is correct; someday I'll see Him and He will inform me where I was incorrect.



But Catholics claim that they have the truth, and are the One True Church? Catholics agree with themselves what truth is, but this proves nothing. I could decide that whatever my church teaches is truth, but that doesn't make it so. If they use the bible, how can they be wrong? They are wrong because they believe that the scripture implies this, when if such an important thing were true it would have been clearly stated. Because it is not a matter pertaining to salvation, which is how they can be wrong and still have the truth. The Holy Spirit is still working in the Church today, but there will be no more inspired writings or councils. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are still present and available to Christians today. But Christ imparted special gifts to the Apostles, inspired writings being one of these.



Catholics claim that their church is the true Church, because of Apostolic Succession, yet they have no direct biblical support for this. In philosophy we learn that the one who claims that something exists must prove it exists, it is not up to the other to prove it doesn't. Christ never said that the power He gave to the Apostles would be passed on. The scripture clearly spells out the requirements to become a bishop in 1 Timothy chapter 3 and Titus chapter 1, yet this succession is never spoken of.



Matthew 16:18-19
"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."



Roman Catholics often refer to this verse as their basis for the Pope. Yet again it never says anything about this gift being passed on to another.



Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.



As we see here, Christ needs no representative on earth; He is the head of the Church.

Catholics often attack Protestants for not following the exact teachings of the Reformers. Well that’s sort of the whole point. Why would we trade in the Pope, only to give that same authority to Luther or Calvin? We don't believe them to be infallible.



Protestants have never claimed that Luther or Calvin were infallible. That is not something Protestants attribute to church leaders. Protestants don't hold the original reformers up any higher than any other church father, we realize that they were fallible men, and considering that most of them came from Catholic backgrounds, of course it can't be expected that they would create a perfect doctrine and remove all the erroneous Catholic doctrine. Luther's goals for the Reformation were not necessarily God's. Luther was just a man, and we Protestants don't think of him as anything more than that.

 

[Lotar]

Lotar, one of the difficuties I have with the dual-authority model of the RC church is that there doesn't seem to be any specific content to the "Tradition" end of things....
The Catechism states:
"This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes"

I mean, if Tradition "transmits to every generation all that she herself is, (AND!) all that she believes, it seems there ought to be a concrete list of these things... and if the Church posseses the words of the Apostles, as passed down orally, which are not recounted in the Scriptures themselves, it would seem to be an easy thing to reproduce for everyone what exactly these traditions are....

I would be interested in your thoughts and input in regard to this line of thought....

blessings

Good point, though I'm not sure if I am going to add it into this, or if I am going to write another on that subject. Right now I'm considering doing a seperate work on infallibility and tradition.

 

[Fiskare]

Attempting to rescue this worthiwhile thread from the usual Catholic/protestant debate.

Here's some citations on the nature and ministry of the True Church from official Protestant statements of Faith.

I. From the Lutheran Confessions-

It is also taught among us that one holy Christian church will be and remain forever. This is the assembly of all believers among whom the Gospel is preached in its purity and the holy sacraments are administered according to the Gospel. For it is sufficient for the true unity of the Christian church that the Gospel be preached in conformity with a pure understanding of it and that the sacraments be administered in accordance with the divine Word. It is not necessary for the true unity of the Christian church that ceremonies, instituted by men, should be observed uniformly in all places. It is as Paul says in Eph. 4:4,5, “There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism.” (Augsburg Confession VII:1-4 [German], p. 32)

The church is not merely an association of outward ties and rites like other civic governments, however, but it is mainly an association of faith and of the Holy Spirit in men’s hearts. To make it recognizable, this association has outward marks, the pure teaching of the Gospel and the administration of the sacraments in harmony with the Gospel of Christ. This church alone is called the body of Christ, which Christ renews, consecrates, and governs by his Spirit, as Paul testifies when he says (Eph. 1:22,23), “And he has made him the head over all things for the church, which is his body, the fullness,” that is, the whole congregation “of him who fills all in all.” Thus those in whom Christ is not active are not members of Christ. (Apology of the Augsburg Confession VII/VIII:3-5, p. 169)

Hypocrites and evil men are indeed associated with the true church as far as outward ceremonies are concerned. But when we come to define the church, we must define that which is the living body of Christ and is the church in fact as well as in name. We must understand what it is that chiefly makes us members, and living members, of the church. If we were to define the church as only an outward organization embracing both the good and the wicked, then men would not understand that the kingdom of Christ is the righteousness of the heart and the gift of the Holy Spirit but would think of it as only the outward observance of certain devotions and rituals. (Apology VII/VIII:12-13, p. 170)


...Christ did not question Peter alone but asked, “Who do you [plural] say that I am?” (Matt. 16:15). And what is here spoken in the singular number (“I will give you [singular] the keys” and “whatever you [singular] bind” [Matt. 16:19]) is elsewhere given in the plural (“Whatever you [plural] bind” [Matt. 18:18]), etc. In John, too, it is written, “If you [plural] forgive the sins,” etc. (John 20:23). These words show that the keys were given equally to all the apostles and that all the apostles were sent out as equals. In addition, it is necessary to acknowledge that the keys do not belong to the person of one particular individual but to the whole church, as is shown by many clear and powerful arguments, for after speaking of the keys in Matt. 18:19, Christ said, “If two or three of you agree on earth,” etc. Therefore, he bestows the keys especially and immediately on the church, and for the same reason the church especially possesses the right of vocation. So it is necessary in these passages to regard Peter as the representative of the entire company of apostles... (Treatise, 23-24, p. 324)

II. From the Thrity-Nine Articles of Faith (early Anglican)

19. Of the Church
The visible Church of Christ is a congregation of faithful men, in the which the pure word of God is preached and the sacraments be duly ministered according to Christ's ordinance in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same.

III. From the Westminster Confession of Faith (Calvinist/Presbyterian/Reformed)

CHAP. XXV. - Of the Church.
​

1. The catholic or universal Church, which is invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ the Head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fullness of Him that filleth all in all.

2. The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the Gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion; and of their children: and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, the house and family of God, out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation. 3. Unto this catholic visible Church Christ hath given the ministry, oracles, and ordinances of God, for the gathering and perfecting of the saints, in this life, to the end of the world: and doth, by His own presence and Spirit, according to His promise, make them effectual thereunto.

4. This catholic Church hath been sometimes more, sometimes less visible. And particular Churches, which are members thereof, are more or less pure, according as the doctrine of the Gospel is taught and embraced, ordinances administered, and public worship performed more or less purely in them.

5. The purest Churches under heaven are subject both to mixture and error; and some have so degenerated as to become no Churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan. Nevertheless, there shall be always a Church on earth to worship God according to His will.

6. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof.