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Historicist Only Protestant Historicism

JM

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(Confessional Historicism seems to have fallen out of favour, although, I have found a few of us over on the Puritan Board. I’m hoping to discuss Historicism with other Reformed, Protestant NON-SDA Christians.)

Historicism defined,

"that view which regards the prophecy [of Revelation] as a prefiguration of the great events that were to happen in the church, and the world connected with it, from St. John’s time to the consummation; including specially the establishment of Popedom, and reign of Papal Rome, as in some way or other the fulfilment of the types of the Apocalyptic Beast and Babylon" (Horae Apocalpticae, Vol. 4, p. 564).​

E. B. Elliott writes, in Horae Apocalpticae, that Historicism was the major view of the church centuries,

Victorinus (1st century), Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus (3rd century), Origen, Methodius, Lactantius, Eusebius (4th century), Athanasius, Hilary, Jerome, Chrysostom, Augustine, Tichonius, Bede (8th century), Ambrose, Haymo, Andreas, Anselm (12th century), Joachim Abbas (12th century), Jean Pierre d’Olive, Martin Luther (16th century), Bullinger, Bale, John Foxe, Brightman (17th century), Pareus, Franisco Ribera, Alcasar, Mede, Jurieu, Dr. Cressener, Bossuet, Vitringa (18th century), Daubuz, Sir Isaac Newton (18th century), Lacunza, and Gulloway (19th century).​


Some audio for further study:

W. J. Mencarow – A series of sermons that began in 2006 and number 117! Detailed with plenty of facts, tidbits, etc.
Ian Paisley – Nothing to really add. He is an old time firebrand preacher, take it or leave it.
Robert Caringola – Author of “The Present Reign of Jesus Christ” and “Seventy Weeks: The Historical Alternative.”


Dispensationalism teaches that key portions of scripture like Daniel 9, Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation take place at some at sometime in the future. Preterism teaches that much of prophecy took place before the end of the first century.

H. Grattan Guinness explains the origin of Futurism;

The third or FUTURIST view, is that which teaches that the prophetic visions of Revelation, from chapters iv to xix, prefigure events still wholly future and not to take place, till just at the close of this dispensation. . . .

In its present form however it may be said to have originated at the end of the sixteenth century, with the Jesuit Ribera, who, moved like Alcazar, to relieve the Papacy from the terrible stigma cast upon it by the Protestant interpretation, tried to do so, by referring those prophecies to the distant future, instead of like Alcazar to the distant past. For a considerable period this view was confined to Romanists, and was refuted by several masterly Protestant works. But of late years, since the commencement of this century, it has sprung up afresh, and sprung up strange to say among Protestants. It was revived by such writers as the two Maitlands, Burgh, Tyso, Dr. Dodd, the leaders of the “Brethren” generally, and by some Puseyite expositors also . . . ” from The Approaching End of the Age
E. B. Elliot explains the origin of Preterism;

“IT was stated at the conclusion of my Sketch of the History of Apocalyptic Interpretation, that there are at present too, and but two, grand general counter-Schemes to what may be called the historic Protestant view of the Apocalypse: that view which regards the prophecy as a prefiguration of the great events that were to happen in the Church, and world connected with it, from St. Johns time to the consummation; including specially the establishment of the Popedom, and reign of Papal Rome, as in some way or other the fulfillment of the types of the Apocalyptic Beast and Babylon. The first of these two counter-Schemes is the Præterists, which would have the prophecy stop altogether short of the Popedom, explaining it of the catastrophes, one or both, of the Jewish Nation and Pagan Rome; and of which there are two sufficiently distinct varieties: the second the Futurists; which in its original form would have it all shoot over the head of the Popedom into times yet future; and refer simply to the events that are immediately to precede, or to accompany, Christs second Advent; or, in its various modified forms, have them for its chief subject. I shall in this second Part of my Appendix proceed successively to examine these two, or rather four, anti-Protestant counter-Schemes; and show, if I mistake not, the palpable untenableness alike of one and all. Which done,1 It may perhaps be well, from respect to his venerated name, to add an examination of the late Dr. Arnolds general prophetic counter-theory. This, together with a notice of certain recent counter-views on the Millennium, will complete our review of counter-prophetic Schemes.


Now with regard to the Præterist Scheme, on the review of which we are first to enter, it may be remembered that I stated it to have had its origin with the Jesuit Alcasar:2 and that it was subsequently, and after Grotius and Hammonds prior adoption of it, adopted and improved by Bossuet, the great Papal champion, under one form and modification;3 then afterwards, under another modification, by Hernnschneider, Eichhorn, and others of the German critical and generally infidel school of the last half-century;4 followed in our own æra by Heinrichs, and by Moses Stuart of the United States of America.5 The two modifications appear to have arisen mainly out of the differences of date assigned to the Apocalypse; whether about the end of Neros reign or Domitians6 I shall, I think, pretty well exhaust whatever can be thought to call for examination in the system, by considering separately, first the Neronic, or favorite German form and modification of the Præterist Scheme, as propounded by Eichhorn, Hug, Heinrichs, and Moses Stuart; secondly Bossuets Domitianic form, the one most generally approved, I believe, by Roman Catholics.” Horae Apocalypticae or Hours with the Apocalypse

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 

JM

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Historicism teaches:

26.4. The Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the church, in whom, by the appointment of the Father, all power for the calling, institution, order or government of the church, is invested in a supreme and sovereign manner; neither can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof, but is that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ. 1689 LBC

The 1689 London Baptist Confession, in agreement with the Westminster makes no bones about it, the pope is antichrist. You may not agree but as Richard Baxter points out,

“That if the pope be not he, he had ill luck to be so like him.” (A Christian Directory Page 631)

In the preface or Translators to the Readers of the Authorized Version we find a reference to the pope as “that man of sin.” This is the Protestant position. The pope is recognized, at least historically, as antichrist. But it is not only a historic position, to recognized the false teaching of the Roman church, it is a biblical one. A position that Dispensationalist John MacArthur agrees with.

 
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JM

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Here’s something interesting…the Emperor Phocas made a decree claiming the Pope of Rome was the universal Bishop of the church in 606.

John Gill notes; “if to this we add 1,260 the expiration of his reigns will fall in the year 1866, so that he may have upwards of a hundred and twenty years yet to continue; but of this we cannot be certain; however, the conjecture is not improbable.”

Gill might have it correct. Napoleon gave the death blow to political Rome but Rome took some time to fade away. The Pope lost secular authority in 1866.

Wikipedia: “After defeating the papal army on 18 September 1860 at the Battle of Castelfidardo, and on 30 September at Ancona, Victor Emmanuel took all the Papal territories except Latium with Rome. In 1866 he granted Pius IX the Law of Guarantees (13 May 1871) which gave the Pope the use of the Vatican but denied him sovereignty over this territory, nevertheless granting him the right to send and receive ambassadors and a budget of 3.25 million liras annually. Pius IX officially rejected this offer (encyclical Ubi nos, 15 May 1871), retaining his claim to all the conquered territory.” Interesting. Gill seems to have used the book of Revelation to actually predict the last battle Papal Rome would have resulting in it’s loss of political power.

jm
 
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JM

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The Present Reign of Jesus Christ, I recommend it!

A book review by Steve Eastman

It’s difficult to go into a Christian bookstore and not be exposed to prominently displayed books on the End Times. They are top sellers that have launched the careers of traveling speakers who appear at big conferences and on prominent religious television networks. The Christian public is plagued with short-term memory, unaware of important beliefs of revivalists of even two hundred years ago. Many of us who are trying to manifest the Kingdom of God in our daily lives and spread it around our world, feel an uneasiness with the traditional view of Revelation. The problem with the traditional view is it doesn’t go back far enough. This is where The Present Reign of Jesus Christ offers a well-documented alternative.

There is nothing like fulfilled prophecy to encourage an awe for the Word of God. Robert Caringola dishes this out in heaping helpings. He argues the vast majority of Revelation has already been fulfilled. Caringola quotes a well-respected non-Christian historian, who certainly had no motive to glorify God by providing details of exact fulfillments. Perhaps like a modern day Cyrus the Persian, the scholar was an instrument in God’s hand, nevertheless.

There is nothing new about Caringola’s approach. His extensive use of footnotes shows this take on Revelation has been around at least since the Protestant Reformation. Caringola’s main contribution is gathering all the information into one place, shrink-wrapping it from thousands of pages into just a few hundred, and putting it into language everyday readers can understand. It is mystifying how Christians could have abandoned such an airtight system of prophecies and fulfillments for the muddy waters of sinking dispensationalism.

One of the services Caringola provides is the interpretation of the picture language of Revelation by the picture language of Old Testament prophecies that are generally considered to be fulfilled. There is no doubt the apostle John saw the pictures, but many today confuse the pictures with what they represent.

Caringola teaches Revelation covers the same historical periods several times from different perspectives. The first view is presented by the letters to the seven churches in chapters two and three. These churches in Asia Minor were real, but they also seem to represent characteristics of successive ages.

Believers in the Historicist system that Caringola explains have been able to predict events before they happened almost to the day, such as when Luther nailed the 95 Theses to the Wittenberg chapel door. Readers will also be surprised to learn the identities of the original human sources of today’s popular eschatology. Prophecy teachers would be surprised as well.

I consider The Present Reign of Jesus Christ to be one of the most life-changing books I have ever read. It takes the focus away from twisting the latest headlines into another excuse to look for the rapture. As Caringola loves to point out, Jesus will remain seated at the right hand of the Father, until His enemies are made His footstool. We’ve been left behind to grow the Kingdom here on earth. [end of review]

What’s inside:

Dedication
Foreword
Introduction
Fox’s Overview
The Date
False Teachers
Prophetic Periods

PART I

Revelation Chapter 1
The Vision of the Son of Man

Revelation Chapter 2
The Seven Churches

Revelation Chapter 4
The Heavenly Vision

Revelation Chapter 5
The Scroll Sealed Seven Times

Revelation Chapter 6
The First Six Seals, Pagan Rome’s Demise

Revelation Chapter 7
144,000, The Symbolic Bride of Christ (The Number of Government)

Revelation Chapter 8
The Seventh Seal: Revealing the First Six Trumpets (The Destruction of the Western Empire by the Goths and the Destruction of the Eastern Empire by the Saracens and Turks)

Revelation Chapter 9
Seven Trumpets Continued

Revelation Chapter 10
The Eve of the Reformation (“Christ” Revealed in the “Little Book”)

Revelation Chapter 11
The Two Witnesses

An Analysis of Part I

PART II

THE OTHER SIDE OF THE SCROLL
Beginning Again the Christian Era

Revelation Chapter 12
The Woman and the Dragon

Revelation Chapter 13
The Antichrist and the Papacy (The Unifying Doctrine of the Reformation)

Revelation Chapter 14
The Triumph of Christ

Revelation Chapter 15
Another Great and Marvelous Sign in Heaven

Revelation Chapter 16
“Pour Out the Vials” The Unfolding of the Third “Woe”

Revelation Chapter 17
The Judgment of the Great harlot (God has not forgotten!)

Revelation Chapter 18
Babylon the Great is Fallen “Rejoice over her”

Revelation Chapter 19
The Kingdom of Christ conquers that of the Beast by God’s Word

Revelation Chapter 20
The Symbolic Millennium

Revelation Chapter 21
The New Jerusalem

Revelation Chapter 22
New Jerusalem (Continued ) Epilogue

The Absurdity of Modern “Pathetic” Interpretations
(A sampling of learned responses to the deceptions of Ribera and Alcazar)

301 pages, paper
ISBN 1560434457

Back of book.

 
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JM

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BA, according to the rules the "Only" tags are used to limit the convo, "these tags are aimed at having conversations of posters of one mind."

And, "Please keep in mind that it is a rule violation for a futurist to debate in a Preterist Only only thread and for a Preterist to debate in a Futurist Only thread."

I'm sure that protection is afforded to us Historicist as well.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/new-tags.7897745/

Thank you.

j
 
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interpreter

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I consider myself a historicist because I say the first seal of the Revelation was opened by Jesus in 312 AD when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power through St. Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow. That event is known as the turning point of history because ever since then Christian nations have been the dominate force on earth: the 2nd horseman to rule the earth for Jesus was Roman Catholic kings who conquered with a great sword, and took peace from the earth during the Crusades. The 3rd horseman was the British Empire which conquered with economics. Great Britain was founded by King James who rode a black horse. The 4th horseman is the US which was founded by George Washington who rode a pale-looking horse named Blueskin. Our weapons bring hell and death to the enemies of Jesus. Currently, we are dropping 100-pound "hailstones" on the latest face of the 7th head of Satan, in the Battle of Ar Mageddon which began on 9/11 when the Euphrates was dry.
 
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JM

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The Historical or Historicist method of interpreting Revelation:

“In my opinion this system is more nearly correct, and yet it needs to be modified by the others (Preterism and Futurism), and carefully guarded. It holds that a succession of historical events, future when John wrote but now in part in the past, are portrayed by a series of visions. The error must be avoided of supposing that the book is continuously historical from the beginning to the end. If it is borne in mind that there is more than one series of visions; that when one series ends another follows which is synchronous, at least in part; that a part of the events portrayed by symbols is not in the past, while another portion is in the future, I think the result of the Historical system will be found to be clear, harmonious, and surprisingly in correspondence with the visions of the prophet. It perhaps cannot be expected that even those who adopt this system will agree in every detail, but we do find that the great expositors of the historical school, embracing the majority of English commentators, are in substantial agreement.” – People’s New Testament Commentary

If you're looking for a brief commentary on the New Testament, espeically prophecy, I would recommend Barton Johnson's People's NT Commentary.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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JM

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Useful:

4interpretations.jpg


timeline.jpg
 
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interpreter

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BA, according to the rules the "Only" tags are used to limit the convo, "these tags are aimed at having conversations of posters of one mind."

And, "Please keep in mind that it is a rule violation for a futurist to debate in a Preterist Only only thread and for a Preterist to debate in a Futurist Only thread."

I'm sure that protection is afforded to us Historicist as well.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/new-tags.7897745/

Thank you.

j
It's a crying shame. I love debating with futurists, and now I cant. And if everyone is of one mind, what is the point of posting?
 
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JM

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It's a crying shame. I love debating with futurists, and now I cant. And if everyone is of one mind, what is the point of posting?


You are incorrect. Debates are still open and welcome just not in threads defined and including “Only.” The point of posting within a group is to avoid needless rabbit trails... Futurists on this forum are known for it.
 
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JM

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Here is the thread explaining the Tags:

Here are the tags (notice the tag for debate): http://www.christianforums.com/threads/new-tags.7897745/

  • Eschatology
    • Futurism Only
    • Preterism Only
    • Historicism Only
    • Idealism Only
    • Pre-Mil Only
    • Post-Mil Only
    • A-Mil Only
    • Pre-Trib Only
    • Mid-Trib Only
    • Post-Trib Only
    • Anti-Christ European
    • Anti-Christ Muslim
    • Discussion
    • Debate
    • Fellowship

 
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BABerean2

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You are incorrect. Debates are still open and welcome just not in threads defined and including “Only.” The point of posting within a group is to avoid needless rabbit trails... Futurists on this forum are known for it.

There seems to be a great deal of confusion over the new tags.
I posted a video here that was clearly Historicist on the Papacy, and you asked that it be removed.

I hold to both Historicist and non-Dispensational Futurist interpretation.

All Futurists are not Dispensationalists. I think John Darby's doctrine is total nonsense.

I see the Papacy's manipulation of events in the past and in today's world and in the future.

Attempting to place some of us into a "box" with a certain label will not work, as we have already seen.

.

 
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JM

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BABerean2

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Need to get anchored in Revelation or just wanted to know how biblical and historical Protestantism understood the Apocalypse?

Checkout the lectures by W. J. Mencarow who has posted over 75 lectures no Revelation!

I listened to "Introduction of Revelation".

It was excellent and should be required listening for all on this forum.
Some are unaware of the origin of the doctrine they are so ardently promoting.

They are advocates of the Jesuit doctrines of Alcazar and Riberra without knowing they are continuing the Counter-Reformation.

.
 
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JM

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The Witness of the Church

Posted on December 27, 2013 by jm

Plenty of confusion exists when it comes to understanding the book of Revelation so I thought I would pull a few helpful notes to illustrate that it needn’t be. Take for example the unfortunate misunderstanding of the use of “candlestick” in Revelation 11.

The popular view would have you believe that two physical witnesses will be in Jerusalem at some future time, candidates most often mentioned for the position are Elijah and Enoch. Instead of injecting our own opinion into the Revelation 11 let us retreat to scripture and allow scripture to speak for itself:

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. (Rev 1:12-20)​

If the candlesticks in Revelation 1 are a symbol of the churches why would they be limited to two physical men in Revelation 11? I’m all for furthering our theological understanding with modern works, and it is the job of the church to engage society in every generation, but we should not forget the work already completed for us.

Some helpful notes on the Candlesticks from the People’s New Testament Commentary by Barton Johnson.

Candlestick – A symbol of a church, which should be a light in the world. The seven golden candlesticks are the seven churches. A symbol of any light-giving agency.

I saw seven golden candlesticks. The first things seen when he turned to see whence the voice came were the seven golden candlesticks, which symbolized the churches (Rev_1:20).

The mystery of the seven stars. The Lord himself at once explains what the seven stars and seven candlesticks symbolize. The seven candlesticks represent the churches, or organizations appointed to “let their light shine” and become “the light of the world.”
And the seven stars are the angels of the churches. These were, I think, the evangelists of the churches.


Now back to my quesiton, if the candlesticks in Revelation 1 are a symbol of the churches why would they be limited to two physical men in Revelation 11? Simply, they cannot be limited to a two individuals but represent the witness of the church during the 1260 days time period.

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. (Rev 11:3-4)​

Revelation 11 makes much more sense if it represents the witness of the church rather than two individual witnesses as Barton Johnson notes;

The olive tree was the source of the oil used to provide for the candlesticks. The candlesticks, burning the oil, gave forth light. The symbols imply that during this period of 1260 days God shall have two agencies, bearing divine witness, which shall give forth light to men. These agencies shall be filled and sustained by the Spirit.

I pray this was helpful.

jm
 
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JM

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From Wiki: The day-year principle, year-day principle or year-for-a-day principle is a method of interpretation of Bible prophecy in which the word day in prophecy is symbolic for a year of actual time. It is used principally by the historicist school of prophetic interpretation.[end quote]


Here’s something interesting…the Emperor Phocas made a decree claiming the Pope of Rome was the universal Bishop of the church in 606.

John Gill notes; “if to this we add 1,260 the expiration of his reigns will fall in the year 1866, so that he may have upwards of a hundred and twenty years yet to continue; but of this we cannot be certain; however, the conjecture is not improbable.”

Gill might have it correct. Napoleon gave the death blow to political Rome but Rome took some time to fade away. The Pope lost secular authority in 1866.

Wikipedia: “After defeating the papal army on 18 September 1860 at the Battle of Castelfidardo, and on 30 September at Ancona, Victor Emmanuel took all the Papal territories except Latium with Rome. In 1866 he granted Pius IX the Law of Guarantees (13 May 1871) which gave the Pope the use of the Vatican but denied him sovereignty over this territory, nevertheless granting him the right to send and receive ambassadors and a budget of 3.25 million liras annually. Pius IX officially rejected this offer (encyclical Ubi nos, 15 May 1871), retaining his claim to all the conquered territory.” Interesting. Gill seems to have used the book of Revelation to actually predict the last battle Papal Rome would have resulting in it’s loss of political power.

jm
 
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BABerean2

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The olive tree was the source of the oil used to provide for the candlesticks. The candlesticks, burning the oil, gave forth light. The symbols imply that during this period of 1260 days God shall have two agencies, bearing divine witness, which shall give forth light to men. These agencies shall be filled and sustained by the Spirit.

:amen:

The Olive Tree is also used in Romans chapter 11 as a symbol of the Church.

The Gentile branches of the wild olive tree were grafted in among the cultivated branches of the believing Israelites, who accepted Christ as the Messiah.

Therefore, these are two Olive Trees grafted together to make one.

.
 
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