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Which denomination are you talking about?One doesn't need to be RC to adhere to the creed.
Btw, which "creed" are you talking about?
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Ah, so there are "protestant denominations" now! Perhaps we are getting somewhere and will hear no more about a mythical "the Protestant Church" from you?But you know as well as I do that those protestant denominations
No, the Protestant Church I refer to is the same Protestant Church protestants refer to
What are you talking about? None of that makes any sense. Or it is that you just want to taunt us with gibberish?You can see the difficulty that arises when you have a Protestant Church that only exists invisibly or doesn't exist at all.
So, once your saved, you're not always saved?Folks, let me quote St Paul. My paraphrase got lost in translation.
Rom. 5:21, 6:1-2
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
No one who believes in OSAS also teaches go and do whatever you want (sin).
So, while you may disagree with OSAS, do so for some other reason than you're fearful of the straw man of permissiveness. Remember also, love casts out fear.
Chalk up another one P got right.
Of course it does. Tell that to the post Vat II and pre Vat II groups. Or to EO. Or to OO. Or to the very early church. That Rome does not follow what was handed down, anyone may know (Firmilian, 256ad).
You mean the ones who aren't Catholic anymore? For that matter, tell it to the Protestant Revolters...
Actually, it is, because this is where the New Jerusalem of Revelation meets the Church. It's the same sacrifice, regardless of how you see it, Albion. The priest takes on Christ, who is God, and exists outside of time and space. If the act of the Crucifixion is not above and beyond time and space, how is it that it takes away our sins, as well as those before?But the celebration of the Eucharist is not above and beyond time and space, as MamaZ said. We are not assembled outside time and space. The actions of the priest and, indeed, the Crucifixion are not above and beyond time and space except in terms of consequences or value, etc.
You mean the ones who aren't Catholic anymore? For that matter, tell it to the Protestant Revolters...
Actually, it is, because this is where the New Jerusalem of Revelation meets the Church. It's the same sacrifice, regardless of how you see it, Albion. The priest takes on Christ, who is God, and exists outside of time and space. If the act of the Crucifixion is not above and beyond time and space, how is it that it takes away our sins, as well as those before?
I understand that you don't understand how. I don't know how either. It just is.
That's rewriting history. The Catholic Church was in need of reform, and was in the process of reforming. Not to Luther's liking, so he, and the others revolted.Not revolters. The Catholic church was corrupted and needed to reform but was unwilling to reform on their own.
I don't know why people take offense at the truth. The Americans were revolters, too. They had their reasons, Protestants had theirs and Othodox had theirs. I mean why do we label folks pro-choice when they're really pro-abortion?Nice. Now we have, in your bubble, Protestant Revolters, OO Revolters, EO Revolters - and anyone who is not Catholic Revolters. I think you need to find a label for Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Zoroastrians, Jains, Sikhs, animists, etc., etc. Some of these were Catholics, but most have never had any association with the Catholic Church. If they are not Revolters, what are they?
As sure as I'm looking at the priest, when he elevates the host, he is in the person of Christ.It just may be in your own mind, but in all the Catholic masses I have attended the priest has remained firmly fixed in the same time and space that I occupy. I never observed him disappearing into some other ether, have you?
The Protestant Reform saw something that wasn't there, pretty much. The Catholic Church was not selling indulgences, had already said that selling indulgences was error, and was in the process of changing what needed to be changed.
But the celebration of the Eucharist is not above and beyond time and space, as MamaZ said. We are not assembled outside time and space. The actions of the priest and, indeed, the Crucifixion are not above and beyond time and space except in terms of consequences or value, etc.
I don't think any of that conflicts with what I wrote.
I don't say things I don't know to be true, and I don't say things to get under anyone's skin. Every Ecumenical Council was concerned with Church Reform. Lateran V, Florence, and so on. And there were more reformers working in the Catholic Church before Luther or Zwingli left. It may not have been happening locally for them, but the Catholic Church is always in a state of Reform, because the Catholic Church is not a countryclub of perfect people.Whew. You really do need a refresher course in Western Civilization if you really think that, and are not just saying it to "get under our skin."
I don't say things I don't know to be true, and I don't say things to get under anyone's skin. Every Ecumenical Council was concerned with Church Reform. Lateran V, Florence, and so on. And there were more reformers working in the Catholic Church before Luther or Zwingli left. It may not have been happening locally for them, but the Catholic Church is always in a state of Reform, because the Catholic Church is not a countryclub of perfect people.
No, not a country club, at all. Vatican City is a city, not in the country. It contains a city club of cardinals.
That's so, but the rest of this--Mass, consecration, sacrifice, priest--is not.
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