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Notice how you said that Christ is the head of the church. Compare that with your church having it's own visible head who you call "Holy Father".
We absolutely know that the Church is universal! Christ is the head of the Church, the Pope is His vicar on Earth. When Christ rose, he exhorted Peter to feed His lambs. He conferred authority on all His apostles. And promised them protection from error.Sorry, still looking for the text where Christ invested that authroity in the Catholic church. Your problem is that you don't seem to realize that the church is not some centralized local of congregants. Its the body of Christ scattered about. Christ made disciples, and those disciples were commissioned to make other disciples. The body of believers, in short, is a body of disciples, with various talents, lead by Christ. Notice how you said that Christ is the head of the church. Compare that with your church having it's own visible head who you call "Holy Father".
We absolutely know that the Church is universal! Christ is the head of the Church, the Pope is His vicar on Earth. When Christ rose, he exhorted Peter to feed His lambs. He conferred authority on all His apostles. And promised them protection from error.
I think that Mr. Luther was about putting forth solis fide, RCC of course is fides cartiate formata. We few non-modern Lutherans don't want to put forth RCC's canon 6 sessio 11, ie, anathama against anyone putting forth solis fide.
Just ol old Jack
I use English bibles that are approved for use by Catholics. Sometimes I will quote from the KJV or some other Protestant produced translation that is not approved for use by Catholics but that is an exception rather than the rule. In this case the KJV has taken an approach to the passage that is incorrect. It may be somewhat justifiable in some ways but it is not especially well done so I prefer not to use it in this case. The NRSV seems better. It reads thus:I've found it interesting how you've continued to use more modern translations instead of the KJV, but that's a conversation for another thread.
Thank you for your expressed concern but I am not in the woods.This isn't a condemnation against necromancy as much as it is a condemnation against those who try to communicate with the dead altogether. So you're not out of the woods yet sir.
Now here I was thinking that you were concerned for the truth as expressed in sacred scripture rather than with how one can twist and bend bible verses to make a doctrine seem 'true' when it is not. I was mistaken I think in believing that your stated purpose was the rule by which this passage would be approached and interpreted.And are you really willing to say that verse 20 has no application outside of dealing with those who speak to the dead? Do you really think you wouldn't be able to tell those who have light in them by testing what they say against the law and the testimony?
Well, I will look at the passage containing verse 16 of the same chapter that contains verses 19 & 20 but I think we ought to deal more fully with verses 19 & 20 before we swap to a new passage. Do you agree?I ask that you consider the following text as well:
Isa 8:16 - Bind up the testimony. Seal the law among my disciples.
Would you say that the testimony is bound up among your church, or that the law has been sealed among you?
I use English bibles that are approved for use by Catholics.
Sometimes I will quote from the KJV or some other Protestant produced translation that is not approved for use by Catholics but that is an exception rather than the rule. In this case the KJV has taken an approach to the passage that is incorrect. It may be somewhat justifiable in some ways but it is not especially well done so I prefer not to use it in this case.
The NRSV seems better. It reads thus:
Now if people say to you, 'Consult the ghosts and the familiar spirits that chirp and mutter; should not a people consult their gods, the dead on behalf of the living, for teaching and for instruction?' surely, those who speak like this will have no dawn! (Isaiah 8:19-20)
Thank you for your expressed concern but I am not in the woods. Now here I was thinking that you were concerned for the truth as expressed in sacred scripture rather than with how one can twist and bend bible verses to make a doctrine seem 'true' when it is not. I was mistaken I think in believing that your stated purpose was the rule by which this passage would be approached and interpreted. Well, I will look at the passage containing verse 16 of the same chapter that contains verses 19 & 20 but I think we ought to deal more fully with verses 19 & 20 before we swap to a new passage. Do you agree?
Bind up the testimony, seal the teaching among my disciples. I will wait for the LORD, who is hiding his face from the house of Jacob, and I will hope in him. See, I and the children whom the LORD has given me are signs and portents in Israel from the LORD of hosts, who dwells on Mount Zion. (Isaiah 8:16-18)
Bind seal among my disciples: because the prophets message was not well received at the time, he wanted to preserve it until the future had vindicated him as Gods true prophet (cf. 30:89).We can return to these verses when we finish with verses 19 & 20
Signs: in the meantime, while awaiting the vindication of his message, Isaiah and his children with their symbolic names stood as a reminder of Gods message to Israel.
God keep us in the faith of the apostles.
We absolutely know that the Church is universal! Christ is the head of the Church, the Pope is His vicar on Earth. When Christ rose, he exhorted Peter to feed His lambs. He conferred authority on all His apostles. And promised them protection from error.
My previous post said:Bind up the testimony, seal the teaching among my disciples. I will wait for the LORD, who is hiding his face from the house of Jacob, and I will hope in him. See, I and the children whom the LORD has given me are signs and portents in Israel from the LORD of hosts, who dwells on Mount Zion. (Isaiah 8:16-18)
Bind seal among my disciples: because the prophets message was not well received at the time, he wanted to preserve it until the future had vindicated him as Gods true prophet (cf. 30:89).We can return to these verses when we finish with verses 19 & 20
Signs: in the meantime, while awaiting the vindication of his message, Isaiah and his children with their symbolic names stood as a reminder of Gods message to Israel.
There are seven churches within the church of Jesus Christ, in which the Catholic church is the fourth. The Catholics uses the Apostolic Succession thing to enforce the Spirit of Jezebel, which is to control and dominate. There were non-Catholic churches both before and after the Catholic church.
1. Ephesus – Apostolic – Leaving the first love… “All they which are in Asia be turned away from me…” – II Tim 1:15
2. Smyrna – Martyrs – Persecutions ten days… Foxes Book of Martyrs describes ten Roman persecutions.
3. Pergamos – Orthodox – A pyrgos is a fortified structure – Needed for the dark ages.
4. Thyatira – Catholic – The Spirit of Jezebel is to persecute, control, and to dominate. This spirit can invade any church!
5. Sardis – Protestant – A sardius is a gem, elegant yet hard and rigid. Doctrine in the head, little in the heart.
6. Philadelphia – Methodist – To obtain sanctification was to do so with love.
7. Laodicea – Charismatic – Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?
Christ Jesus walks in the midst of all seven churches when we are with him in spiritual sincerity.
Never heard Thyatira representing the Roman Catholic church.
Here you go with more assumptions based on what your church tells you and not the bible. Christ singled out Peter in that one instance because of Peter's denail of Him. He denied Him three times, so Christ questioned Him three times. This was not some investment of authority. All the disciples were told to make other disciples. How could that happen if they didn't feed (teach) them?
And there is ZERO scriptures supporting this protection from error theory you keep speaking of. You have nothing to support that besides your churches teaching. Same with the Pope being the "vicar" on earth. Your church has assumed authority and convinced you that its supposed to have that authority, based on nothing more than it's own word.
And you guys still skirt the fact that your Pope is called "Holy Father". How does that not cause any alarms to go off?
The NRSV translation is well regarded by many scholars and it has approval in the Catholic Church for use in private study.
Thus,
Now if people say to you, 'Consult the ghosts and the familiar spirits that chirp and mutter; should not a people consult their gods, the dead on behalf of the living, for teaching and for instruction?' surely, those who speak like this will have no dawn! (Isaiah 8:19-20)is the text with which I intend to deal rather than with the antiquated (and somewhat inaccurate) translation from the KJV.
If your preference is for the KJV that is okay but if you seek to prove some doctrine from the KJV's translation of the passage you ought to hesitate knowing, as you do now, that the translation is at best one possible way to translate the text rather than some indisputably correct translation of it.
As far as I can see there is nothing "murky" about the NRSV text. It is very clear. It treats, as I suggested in my previous post, the passage as a condemnation of the necromancy practised by wizards who "chirp and mutter". The quote in my previous post came from another Catholic approved translation.
Surely no dawn: reliance on necromancy brings futility.
The comments are taken from the footnotes of my NAB.
All of those Churches were part of the diocese of Ephesus, a diocese of the Catholic Church, of which John was the bishop. BTW, every diocese is "a Church" entity, and what ties them to the Catholic Church is their communion with the Bishop of Rome. And it's always been that way.There are seven churches within the church of Jesus Christ, in which the Catholic church is the fourth. The Catholics uses the Apostolic Succession thing to enforce the Spirit of Jezebel, which is to control and dominate. There were non-Catholic churches both before and after the Catholic church.
1. Ephesus Apostolic Leaving the first love All they which are in Asia be turned away from me II Tim 1:15
2. Smyrna Martyrs Persecutions ten days Foxes Book of Martyrs describes ten Roman persecutions.
3. Pergamos Orthodox A pyrgos is a fortified structure Needed for the dark ages.
4. Thyatira Catholic The Spirit of Jezebel is to persecute, control, and to dominate. This spirit can invade any church!
5. Sardis Protestant A sardius is a gem, elegant yet hard and rigid. Doctrine in the head, little in the heart.
6. Philadelphia Methodist To obtain sanctification was to do so with love.
7. Laodicea Charismatic Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?
The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. - Revelation 1:20
These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 2:1
Christ Jesus walks in the midst of all seven churches when we are with him in spiritual sincerity.
We absolutely know that the Church is universal! Christ is the head of the Church, the Pope is His vicar on Earth. When Christ rose, he exhorted Peter to feed His lambs. He conferred authority on all His apostles. And promised them protection from error.
It is true that we think Christ queried Peter three times as a means of forgiveness and Peter's repentence. Why is it, though, that Christ could not accomplish more than one thing with his action? He named Peter and said he would build His Church upon Peter. But Jesus was only talking to Peter when he asked "Do you love me more than these?".
I've already shown the Scripture passages which protect the Church from error. You say the Church 'assumed' her role, well, what of it? For every action, there is a reaction.
Faith is the assumtption of belief-we are given the faith, but unless we take it on, it means nothing.
So yes, the Church assumed the role that was conferred on it by Jesus. Paul also assumed the role of apostle after Jesus knocked him off his horse.
Jesus made the office of Pope holy. Why wouldn't the one assuming the office take on that title?
So, if Peter was the first Pope, how come Paul rebuked him in Antioch?
I am sure that it not only me that sees the above quote as completely begging the question. Surely if the translation in the KJV is one of several possibilities then any doctrine built from the KJV's treatment of the passage (Isaiah 8:19-20) is built on a disputed passage and hence is not a doctrine by which to measure truth and falsity. Unless you have some other passage upon which the build your doctrine you seem to be engaging in circular reasoning by calling the NRSV's translation a failure to expose false doctrine when you depend on the KJV mistranslation as the basis for the doctrine you seem to want to use so you can expose some other (unnamed) doctrine as false....
You haven't realized yet that I don't subscribe to the "one way of translating" school of thought? Obviously it can be translated in many ways, but the various other translations seem to always change the meaning of key texts that expose false doctrine.
Yes, the explanation is that the text in the source language does not say what the KJV says in English. The NRSV reflects in English what the source language text says.There very much is a change there. Can you explain why the text you quoted says "should not a people consult their gods?" as opposed to the KJV which says "should not a people consult their God?"
The above quote is just more question begging circularity.Add to that the statement is changed to so that it puts the focus on those who speak to the dead rather than the standard by which they should be measured.
No, we pray to the saints who are alive and with God asking them to pray for us to the Lord our God. I think your view of death (soul sleep) is what causes you to have such an odd view of Catholic teaching. Catholics reject soul sleep as a heresy.And either way it goes this translation doesn't help you much as it condemns the practice of speaking to the dead. Your church puts a huge emphasis on that don't they?
I am sure that it not only me that sees the above quote as completely begging the question. Surely if the translation in the KJV is one of several possibilities then any doctrine built from the KJV's treatment of the passage (Isaiah 8:19-20) is built on a disputed passage and hence is not a doctrine by which to measure truth and falsity. Unless you have some other passage upon which the build your doctrine you seem to be engaging in circular reasoning by calling the NRSV's translation a failure to expose false doctrine when you depend on the KJV mistranslation as the basis for the doctrine you seem to want to use so you can expose some other (unnamed) doctrine as false.
Yes, the explanation is that the text in the source language does not say what the KJV says in English.
The NRSV reflects in English what the source language text says. The above quote is just more question begging circularity.
No, we pray to the saints who are alive and with God asking them to pray for us to the Lord our God. I think your view of death (soul sleep) is what causes you to have such an odd view of Catholic teaching. Catholics reject soul sleep as a heresy.
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