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Does the idea that what was said of Christ by others could be predicted before hand not register for you?
Where's the claim to it being a prophecy, by the writer? Was the writer inherently writing a prophecy, somewhere?It seems that neither of you have addressed my response to this issue, and it isn't the first time. Again, here is what I posted regarding this issue. I don't care to keep repeating myself. If this isn't a satisfactory explanation, I really don't know what else I can provide you with. I suppose we will have to leave it be and let the readers decide for themselves whether it seems to be a convincing prophecy or not. Again, here are links to my rebuttal:
(1) http://www.christianforums.com/t7559285-63/#post57544430
(2) http://www.christianforums.com/t7559285-64/#post57544445
(3) http://www.christianforums.com/t7559285-70/#post57554469
(4) http://www.christianforums.com/t7559285-70/#post57554774
My irony meter just exploded in mushroom cloud.
Does the idea that what was said of Christ by others could be predicted before hand not register for you?
man is it really that hard to understand that the Holy Spirit sometimes shows wicked mens thoughts and also does it in prophesy?
the prophesy did not fail. explain how it failed. i am sick of this.
and btw it does not have to be claimed as a prophesy to be one, if that were the case then the bible would have a lot more words in it.
Not relevant. Psalms 2 and 22 make no such claim yet are quoted in Matt and Hebrews , respectively, as Messianic prophecies.Where's the claim to it being a prophecy, by the writer? Was the writer inherently writing a prophecy, somewhere?
FallacyIf we're going to test the prophet, then we must follow the entire definition. Is he claiming to prophecy from God?
Already demonstratedOr is this passage used typologically by later texts?
If the enemies of God are not even born yet, it is not those enemies who we are reading. We are reading the words of someone who accurately foretold the sentiments of the enemies of Messiah. That is forthtelling with evidence of divine foreknowledge. Only God could know the explicit reasons that Messiah would be rejected.Like I said, try reading, try understanding please. Summascriptura pointed out the book was quoting enemies. IOW, not from a supposed prophet.
But if it was from a supposed prophet, the prophecy failed.
Try to understand what is said.
So, just to be clear, are you going on record as disagreeing with the Reformers when they said, "the Apocrypha was good to read"?Like I said, try reading, try understanding please. Summascriptura pointed out the book was quoting enemies. IOW, not from a supposed prophet.
But if it was from a supposed prophet, the prophecy failed.
Try to understand what is said.
David was not a prophet by the standard you pose, yet clearlhy authored prophetic Messianic Psalms.You too?
Deut. gives the standard 2-fold test of a prophet. Does it come true? And if it comes true, does it lead one away from the true God.
So, if you and the others want to say this is a prophesy from wicked men, then let's apply the test.
1) What is the prophesy?
2) Did it come to pass?
Here's the quote:
12"Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training. 13He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the LORD.
Let's assume they're speaking of Jesus.
14"He became to us a reproof of our thoughts; 15the very sight of him is a burden to us, because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange. 16We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father.
17"Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; 18for if the righteous man is God's son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries.
There it is. IF THE RIGHTEOUS MAN IS GOD'S SON, GOD WILL DELIVER HIME FROM THE ENEMIES.
19"Let us test him with insult and torture, that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance. 20Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected."
There it is again. HE WILL BE PROTECTED FROM A SHAMEFUL DEATH, according to what he says (no one has found the "scripture" for that one, because obviously Jesus didn't say that). This is surely clear to the reader???
21Thus they reasoned, but they were led astray, for their wickedness blinded them, 22and they did not know the secret purposes of God. (ESV, 2009)
So, the prophecy is twofold: God will deliver him from death. The son even says that.
Your job since you believe this is a prophecy, a genuine God-breathed scripture, is to prove that 1) Jesus didn't die (Islam's view) and 2) Jesus predicted he'd be delivered before death.
Scripture, however, attests otherwise. Jesus did die on the cross and Jesus predicted He would die.
If the enemies of God are not even born yet, it is not those enemies who we are reading. We are reading the words of someone who accurately foretold the sentiments of the enemies of Messiah. That is forthtelling with evidence of divine foreknowledge. Only God could know the explicit reasons that Messiah would be rejected.
So, just to be clear, are you going on record as disagreeing with the Reformers when they said, "the Apocrypha was good to read"?
<snip>
There it is. IF THE RIGHTEOUS MAN IS GOD'S SON, GOD WILL DELIVER HIME FROM THE ENEMIES.
So, the prophecy is twofold: God will deliver him from death. The son even says that.
Your job since you believe this is a prophecy, a genuine God-breathed scripture, is to prove that 1) Jesus didn't die (Islam's view) and 2) Jesus predicted he'd be delivered before death.
Scripture, however, attests otherwise. Jesus did die on the cross and Jesus predicted He would die.
But the prophesy didn't come to pass! By Deut. it is false!
19"Let us test him with insult and torture, that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance. 20Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected."
Plus, find where Jesus said, I will be protected. That obviously contradicts scripture.
So, in your view the book contains passages which at best are misleading many people in thinking they are prophecy when they are not, and at worst they contain false propnecy, and yet they are good to read?I've already agreed that they're fine to read. Just don't make doctrine from them.
So, in your view the book contains passages which at best are misleading many people in thinking they are prophecy when they are not, and at worst they contain false propnecy, and yet they are good to read?
So, in your view the book contains passages which at best are misleading many people in thinking they are prophecy when they are not, and at worst they contain false propnecy, and yet they are good to read?
Oh, really. So now just organizing things the same way leaves you vulnerable to being condemned as a false prophet!Not relevant. Psalms 2 and 22 make no such claim yet are quoted in Matt and Hebrews , respectively, as Messianic prophecies.
A nonclaimant can't be declared prophet in the first place, true or false prophet.Fallacy
An invoked typology is not necessarily prophecy.Already demonstrated
I replied, if so, then it did not come to pass.
The prophecy was that Jesus would not die on the cross; and Orthcat ties the prophecy to the comments of the passerbys---if he's God, let him come down.
Obviously, we all agree Jesus died on the cross.
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