Protestant canon

SummaScriptura · May 15, 2011

narnia59 said:
Do you have a reference where the western church ever accepted any books that are not currently in the Catholic Bible?

Jerome made changes to the Bible which have impoverished Western Christians of all stripes.

1. Jerome moved the Church in the West off the Greek text as the basis for the Old Testament.
2. Jerome diminished the catholic epistles in the New Testament by moving them to the back.
3. Jerome promoted the Pauline epistles by moving them after Acts in the N.T., specifically to promote the epistle to the Church of Rome.
4. Jerome was the first (not Luther) to label the books he did not like "Apocrypha"
5. Jerome did not bring forward a number of chapters and books into the Latin Vulgate, Manasseh, Psalm 151, 1 Esdras etc.
6. Jerome was the first (not Luther) to put books and/or chapters he did not find of value into an appendix

Jerome the Great should be called Jerome the Innovator. When it comes to the Bible, however, oftentimes "innovations" are not a good idea.

Ortho_Cat · May 15, 2011

SummaScriptura said:
Jerome made changes to the Bible which have impoverished Western Christians of all stripes.

1. Jerome moved the Church in the West off the Greek text as the basis for the Old Testament.
2. Jerome diminished the catholic epistles in the New Testament by moving them to the back.
3. Jerome promoted the Pauline epistles by moving them after Acts in the N.T., specifically to promote the epistle to the Church of Rome.
4. Jerome was the first (not Luther) to label the books he did not like "Apocrypha"
5. Jerome did not bring forward a number of chapters and books into the Latin Vulgate, Manasseh, Psalm 151, 1 Esdras etc.
6. Jerome was the first (not Luther) to put books and/or chapters he did not find of value into an appendix

Jerome the Great should be called Jerome the Innovator. When it comes to the Bible, however, oftentimes "innovations" are not a good idea.

Interesting observations, Summa. I agree with your conclusion (obviously).

Montalban · May 15, 2011

Erose said:
I think that we have learned that there is no answer to this question on their part for to do so would force them to admit that Protestants have their own traditions that they follow and they are hardwired to deny all allusions to the idea that they follow traditions and thus cannot be Sola Scriptura.

Excellent question asked.

Thanks.

I guess if people can't show why they believe something then they might attempt to show problems with the alternatives.

Although RCC and EO don't agree on tradition it doesn't mean that both of us have to be incorrect

Montalban · May 15, 2011

SummaScriptura said:
When it comes to the Bible, however, oftentimes "innovations" are not a good idea.

Do you mean like Luther inserting into the Bible the word "alone" after "Man is saved by faith"?

Standing Up · May 15, 2011

SummaScriptura said:
Here's Polycarp, a Protestant favorite among the ECFs. Here (Philippians 10) he is teaching from and quoting Tobit and other Bible books on an equal par.

Stand fast, therefore, in these things, and follow the example of the Lord, being firm and unchangeable in the faith, loving the brotherhood, (1 Peter 2:17) and being attached to one another, joined together in the truth, exhibiting the meekness of the Lord in your intercourse with one another, and despising no one. When you can do good, defer it not, because alms delivers from death. (Tobit 4:10, Tobit 12:9) Be all of you subject one to another (1 Peter 5:5) having your conduct blameless among the Gentiles, (1 Peter 2:12) that you may both receive praise for your good works, and the Lord may not be blasphemed through you. But woe to him by whom the name of the Lord is blasphemed! (Isaiah 52:5) Teach, therefore, sobriety to all, and manifest it also in your own conduct.

Is that really Polycarp's words? It's recorded only in a Latin version. It is used to support the notion of purgatory and having your ancestors pay for your way out. I doubt Polycarp would support such.

11822 · May 15, 2011

Standing Up said:
Is that really Polycarp's words? It's recorded only in a Latin version. It is used to support the notion of purgatory and having your ancestors pay for your way out. I doubt Polycarp would support such.

Alms do have value but they're not necessarily money. They are good works.

And the bible says that love covers a multitude of sins. Works are acts of love.

SummaScriptura · May 15, 2011

Standing Up said:
Is that really Polycarp's words? It's recorded only in a Latin version. It is used to support the notion of purgatory and having your ancestors pay for your way out. I doubt Polycarp would support such.

However its translated at the end of the day, the quote of Polycarp is from Tobit.

Neither Tobit nor Polycarp support the notion of purgatory and having your ancestors pay for your way out.

If people see that in that quote it is simply a case of coming to Scripture wearing certain tinted glasses which enable one to read their own assumptions into the text.

I can explain Tobit on this if you'd like...

What we find in Tobit is a very common theme in pre-Christian Jewish writings. The idea is that when one is not in need, they should extend help to others who are in need. Then, when the tables are turned and one does come into need, there will be provision for them as well.

Its really a very common theme, especially in Jewish wisdom literature. Here's an example of one that came up in my daily reading just the other day...

"1Cast your bread on the surface of the waters, for you will find it after many days. 2Divide your portion to seven, or even to eight, for you do not know what misfortune may occur on the earth." (Ecc. 11:1-2 NASB)

Same idea. Generous givers will be saved in a time of need, is the gist.

Standing Up · May 15, 2011

[9] For almsgiving delivers from death, and it will purge away every sin. Those who perform deeds of charity and of righteousness will have fulness of life;

Almsgiving will purge away every sin?

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

I know! Christ paid for all my sins up to the moment I believed and said, Jesus Christ is the Son of God. After that, I need to work for my salvation, pay alms to purge away every sin (I'm sure the theologians can say that better than that)

Yeah, those early Christians had Tobit in their canon as scripture to build their doctrines.

Standing Up · May 15, 2011

SummaScriptura said:
However its translated at the end of the day, the quote of Polycarp is from Tobit.

The chapter from which the quote arose did not survive. We cannot be sure whether he quoted Tobit or not. It's like the later interpolations of the "Ignatian" letters. Maybe they were and maybe they weren't. It's a stretch to build a doctrine thereon.

In any event, Polycarp quotes from all (some allude) 27 books of the NT and aside from maybe Tobit, which is highly doubtful, no other deteros.

Montalban · May 15, 2011

Standing Up said:
The chapter from which the quote arose did not survive. We cannot be sure whether he quoted Tobit or not. It's like the later interpolations of the "Ignatian" letters. Maybe they were and maybe they weren't. It's a stretch to build a doctrine thereon.

In any event, Polycarp quotes from all (some allude) 27 books of the NT and aside from maybe Tobit, which is highly doubtful, no other deteros.

What did Martin Luther have to say?

I'm sure that will be enough to end this matter

Ortho_Cat · May 15, 2011

11822 said:
Alms do have value but they're not necessarily money. They are good works.

And the bible says that love covers a multitude of sins. Works are acts of love.

sounds good to me : )

Ortho_Cat · May 15, 2011

Standing Up said:
[9] For almsgiving delivers from death, and it will purge away every sin. Those who perform deeds of charity and of righteousness will have fulness of life;

Almsgiving will purge away every sin?

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

I know! Christ paid for all my sins up to the moment I believed and said, Jesus Christ is the Son of God. After that, I need to work for my salvation, pay alms to purge away every sin (I'm sure the theologians can say that better than that)

Yeah, those early Christians had Tobit in their canon as scripture to build their doctrines.

Realize that this book was written before the NT.

Ortho_Cat · May 15, 2011

One other thing to note about the deutero's is that resurrection and life eternal is taught in many of them. You will not find this teaching in the Masoretic OT. The fact that these writers were correct on that should mean something, shouldn't it? This is one of the reasons why I think they are so valuable, because of this teaching.

11822 · May 15, 2011

Most definitions for alms that i read say money given to the poor or good deeds. Alms would be more of a deed than money. Although, Jesus may use alms to describe only money, but im not sure.

Everything i read that was posted here from Polycarp sounded like i was reading the N.T.

And even if alms does mean money it doesn't necessarily talk about purgatory. Charity amongst ourselves or love covers a multitude of sins. And this could be what Polycarp was describing.

1 peter4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

Ortho_Cat · May 15, 2011

11822 said:
Most definitions for alms that i read say money given to the poor or good deeds. Alms would be more of a deed than money. Although, Jesus may use alms to describe only money, but im not sure.

Everything i read that was posted here from Polycarp sounded like i was reading the N.T.

And even if alms does mean money it doesn't necessarily talk about purgatory. Charity amongst ourselves or love covers a multitude of sins. And this could be what Polycarp was describing.

1 peter4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

When we talk about giving alms at our church it pertains to charity work, giving of our time and effort, money, whatever.

Rdr Iakovos · May 15, 2011

Standing Up said:
[9] For almsgiving delivers from death, and it will purge away every sin. Those who perform deeds of charity and of righteousness will have fulness of life;

Almsgiving will purge away every sin?

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

I know! Christ paid for all my sins up to the moment I believed and said, Jesus Christ is the Son of God. After that, I need to work for my salvation, pay alms to purge away every sin (I'm sure the theologians can say that better than that)

Yeah, those early Christians had Tobit in their canon as scripture to build their doctrines.

Changing the subject and no true Scotman - a logical fallacy daily double.

narnia59 · May 15, 2011

SummaScriptura said:
Jerome made changes to the Bible which have impoverished Western Christians of all stripes.

1. Jerome moved the Church in the West off the Greek text as the basis for the Old Testament.
2. Jerome diminished the catholic epistles in the New Testament by moving them to the back.
3. Jerome promoted the Pauline epistles by moving them after Acts in the N.T., specifically to promote the epistle to the Church of Rome.
4. Jerome was the first (not Luther) to label the books he did not like "Apocrypha"
5. Jerome did not bring forward a number of chapters and books into the Latin Vulgate, Manasseh, Psalm 151, 1 Esdras etc.
6. Jerome was the first (not Luther) to put books and/or chapters he did not find of value into an appendix

Jerome the Great should be called Jerome the Innovator. When it comes to the Bible, however, oftentimes "innovations" are not a good idea.

Jerome definintely had his own opinions, but he submitted himself to the authority of the councils, and to my knowledge did not put any books approved by them into a section of apocrypha. And the items you mentioned that were not 'brought forward', to my knowledge were not approved by the councils.

And if the order of books in the NT is an incorrect invention of Jerome in the west, how come my Orthodox study Bible has the same order?

And all interesting thoughts, but my question was, "Do you have a reference where the western church ever accepted any books that are not currently in the Catholic Bible?" If not, what is the basis for the claim of the west 'removing' books? Removed books from what standard?

narnia59 · May 15, 2011

Standing Up said:
[9] For almsgiving delivers from death, and it will purge away every sin. Those who perform deeds of charity and of righteousness will have fulness of life;

Almsgiving will purge away every sin?

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

I know! Christ paid for all my sins up to the moment I believed and said, Jesus Christ is the Son of God. After that, I need to work for my salvation, pay alms to purge away every sin (I'm sure the theologians can say that better than that)

Yeah, those early Christians had Tobit in their canon as scripture to build their doctrines.

I'm thinking they weren't totally dependent on Tobit for such thoughts.

Luke 11:41 KJV
But rather give alms of such things as ye have ; and, behold , all things are clean unto you

narnia59 · May 15, 2011

ortho_cat said:
When we talk about giving alms at our church it pertains to charity work, giving of our time and effort, money, whatever.

We use the term stewardship, and it is all-encompassing of being a good steward of our time, talent and treasure.

BloodyRachel · May 15, 2011

ortho_cat said:
When we talk about giving alms at our church it pertains to charity work, giving of our time and effort, money, whatever.

Will works save you?

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