Protestan / catholic relations?

[TeutonKnight]

I will make clear my orignal point that it is me feverant belief that working class Protestants endured the same abject poverty as the RC counterpoints!

that they could not be arsed supporting the border campaign.

lol. My friend one only has to look at the ROI or indeed the Free State after Partition to prove that even the most bitter fears of ye common Protestant where quite well justified!

 

[TeutonKnight]

What do you think about Bill Craig MP?

 

[TeutonKnight]

YouTube - Loyalists ep 1 part 3 of 5

Min 3:44

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

What do you think about Bill Craig MP?

William Craig,Vanguard Ulster Unionists William Craig ?

Not very highly to put it succinctly. I think he and the Rev Martin Smyth did their fair share to add to the polarisation of communities and make political capital from feeding the fears of poor Unionists. They added significantly to the hatred in Northern Ireland.

His attitude towards a peaceful, pluralist N. Ireland can be illustrated by the following : "We must build up the dossiers on the men and women who are a menace to this country, because one day, ladies and gentlemen, if the politicians fail, it will be our duty to liquidate the enemy."

Nice.

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

YouTube - Loyalists ep 1 part 3 of 5

Min 3:44

This is mainly about the rise of Unionist terrorism in 1969 following their fears of loss of security and supremacy with the disbanding of the B specials and the increased radicalisation of the Civil Rights movement.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

Let me re-iterate my point again. One of the major factors contributing to the modern conflict in Ulster was the comparative underepresentation in security forces, judiciary, public sector employment, local government etc of the Nationalist community COMPARED to their Unionist counterparts. A complete lack of any sort of power whatsoever.
Subjugate and humiliate a large part of your community and there will be consequences; as I think we have agreed.

I'm still wondering what you meant when you said that it wasn't the Unionist goverment's fault that the Nationalists were Roman Catholic. What did you mean and what was your point ?

BTW, the video you have posted really does not help your claim that the DUP had no links with paramilitaries. Listen carefully to what Paisley says.

 

[ScottishJohn]

1. Mandates are wonderfull things are they not? The DUP where voted in as the majority Unionist Party because the UUP had already shown that it was weak and divided. What other choice? Direct rule from Westminister. Regardless power sharing is the only way forward in Northern Ireland.

Really not sure what point you are making here.

2. At the same time that PD and the Civil Rights movement where parading for so called equality working class Protestants where in the same situation. Living in slums and in poor conditions. Not encouraged to better themselves. The fact of the matter is they did not complain and yet they where abused by Stormont just as much. The Unionist or rather Big house Unionism was a law onto itself. It was not about religion at all. Please don't give me that speel about Lord Craigavon, that was said in a different time and context.

It may or may not have been about religion. Neither was it about poverty. It was certainly about discrimination, political and institutional. Unionists may have been poor. They were not however disbarred from cleaning council premises, or from working in the shipyards.

3. Despite your own views on Ian Paisley he was the voice of the silent majority in the 1960s thw very same people who the Dictators in Glengall Street had forgotten about. Like or lump it his views where held by the vast majority of traditional Protestant voters in NI. Again a different time and a different context.

Silent majority my foot. He was a rabble rouser and remained one for the duration of his career. He kicked himself off protesting in favour of gerrymandering. He had direct links to paramilitary activity; through his chairmanship of the UCDC he excercised control over the UPV, and was also involved in gun smuggling from apartheid south africa.

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

I will make clear my orignal point that it is me feverant belief that working class Protestants endured the same abject poverty as the RC counterpoints!

Why on earth are you persisting with this point as though I am feverantly (or even fervently) disagreeing with you ?
Do you understand what discrimination means ?
It means biased treatment of one group compared with another group.
We are talking here about disenfrenchisement, gerrymandering, active exclusion from judiciary, security forces and public sector emloyment, unequal housing allocation, exclusion from the more lucrative working class private sectors such as Harland and Wolfe etc, etc.

 

[TeutonKnight]

Really not sure what point you are making here.



It may or may not have been about religion. Neither was it about poverty. It was certainly about discrimination, political and institutional. Unionists may have been poor. They were not however disbarred from cleaning council premises, or from working in the shipyards.



Silent majority my foot. He was a rabble rouser and remained one for the duration of his career. He kicked himself off protesting in favour of gerrymandering. He had direct links to paramilitary activity; through his chairmanship of the UCDC he excercised control over the UPV, and was also involved in gun smuggling from apartheid south africa.

My point is taht people voted for them and what teh people want they get.

Silent Majority of the mass disatisfaction of working class Protestants correct. Ask anyone who was about in them days during the early to late 1960s.

Roman Catholics where not barred from working in H&W. A well known fact.

 

[TeutonKnight]

William Craig,Vanguard Ulster Unionists William Craig ?

Not very highly to put it succinctly. I think he and the Rev Martin Smyth did their fair share to add to the polarisation of communities and make political capital from feeding the fears of poor Unionists. They added significantly to the hatred in Northern Ireland.

His attitude towards a peaceful, pluralist N. Ireland can be illustrated by the following : "We must build up the dossiers on the men and women who are a menace to this country, because one day, ladies and gentlemen, if the politicians fail, it will be our duty to liquidate the enemy."

Nice.

Glad you picked up on that. Bill Craig was an interesting character alright and indeed represented a form of forward acting Unionism that is now dead.

I disagree the Rev Martin Smyth is a gentleman and I won't hear slander about him. Having met him on numerous occasions and heard him preach I believe that he is a Christian. As you aware he took over the seat from Rev Robet Bradford who was shot by the IRA.

 

[ScottishJohn]

My point is taht people voted for them and what teh people want they get.

That is not a very profound or interesting point.

Silent Majority of the mass disatisfaction of working class Protestants correct. Ask anyone who was about in them days during the early to late 1960s.

For some reason you want to turn this into a class issue. Nothing to do with class, everything to do with gerrymandering discrimination and bigotry.

Roman Catholics where not barred from working in H&W. A well known fact.

I didn't say they were. If you are seriously going to argue that there was no discrimination in unemployment in Northern Ireland then please go ahead. This should be entertaining.

 

[TeutonKnight]

That is not a very profound or interesting point.



For some reason you want to turn this into a class issue. Nothing to do with class, everything to do with gerrymandering discrimination and bigotry.



I didn't say they were. If you are seriously going to argue that there was no discrimination in unemployment in Northern Ireland then please go ahead. This should be entertaining.

I did not say that did I? How many more times to have to keep repeating myself? Until I bloody blue in the face no doubt?

The Big House Unionist Goverment of the 1960s pre O'Niell failed everyone and did not take heed of what Carson said....

" let them see that the Catholic minority have nothing to fear from a Protestant majority. ..."

Which is a great shame on them.

I hope that is clear.

 

[ScottishJohn]

I did not say that did I? How many more times to have to keep repeating myself? Until I bloody blue in the face no doubt?

The Big House Unionist Goverment of the 1960s pre O'Niell failed everyone and did not take heed of what Carson said....

" let them see that the Catholic minority have nothing to fear from a Protestant majority. ..."

Which is a great shame on them.

I hope that is clear.

Nope not clear at all.

You keep saying that the government failed everyone, but the reality is that it was the catholic minority which was failed in more serious and consistent ways.

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

I disagree the Rev Martin Smyth is a gentleman and I won't hear slander about him. Having met him on numerous occasions and heard him preach I believe that he is a Christian. As you aware he took over the seat from Rev Robet Bradford who was shot by the IRA.

Fair enough. I was basing my view of the Rev. Smyth on a couple of his sermons I have read excerpts from delivered in the early seventies.
I will bow to your greater knowledge on this one.
I think a lot of people in N. Ireland mellowed since that difficult time.

 

[TeutonKnight]

Nope not clear at all.

You keep saying that the government failed everyone, but the reality is that it was the catholic minority which was failed in more serious and consistent ways.

What do you mean "reality is" Sorry? Am I liar!

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

What do you mean "reality is" Sorry? Am I liar!

I'm sure John will be able to answer you himself, but I think it's worth pointing out here that "reality" when discussing history is generally considered as "that which happened".
What happened in pre-civil rights N.Ireland was that the Nationalist community were significantly underepresented in security forces, judiciary, local and national governement, local housing authorities, public sector employment, certain Unionist-controlled elements of private sector employment etc. COMPARED WITH their economic counterparts in the Unionist community.
This was a significant factor in leading to the modern conflict in Ulster (1969 onwards).
You haven't addressed this point either to agree or disagree with it but rather you persist in making the point that poor Unionists were poor. A point no-one seems to be disagreeing with because it is a tautology.

 

[TeutonKnight]

OK The Unionist Goverment discriminated against Nationalists

I hope that has cleared up and now perhaps both you and John can get off you so called high horses.

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

AAGGHH ! Don't shout !

 

[TeutonKnight]

I am getting tired of sarcastic and patronizing remarks. I have been open and frank and also honnest. Yet that is what I have recieved in return.

 

[Oneofthediaspora]

No you haven't. Not by a long stretch.
Don't be so precious.

This is simply a debate/discussion on the causes of the modern conflict in N.Ireland.
You made some statements that were factually incorrect and were demonstrated as such. That's all. Nothing personal.
It's good to have one's views questioned. That's one of the reasons fora such as these exist.

Personally there's no hard feelings on my part and I hope the same for you. It's been interesting and enjoyable discussing this topic with you. It's made me re-think and briefly re-search a bit of history that is fascinating to me and has a relevance directly to some friends and family. That's why it's so important for me to make sure I know as much of the "truth" as possible. So thanks for that and I'm sure we will disagree again

 

[peadar1987]

In the light of recent events in East Belfast, I think the causes of the conflict pale in comparison to the importance of making sure we never go back to the dark days I had hoped we'd never see again.