Prostitution

[RavenPoe]

A semi related amusing story i thought i'd share:

WARSAW (Reuters) - A Polish man got the shock of his life when he visited a brothel and spotted his wife among the establishment's employees.

Polish tabloid Super Express said the woman had been making some extra money on the side while telling her husband she worked at a store in a nearby town.

"I was dumfounded. I thought I was dreaming," the husband told the newspaper on Wednesday.

The couple, married for 14 years, are now divorcing, the newspaper reported.




And what was the guy doing there? Checking the gas meter?

Oh I bet he was checking someone's meter all right.

Bom-chicka-wow-wow.

 

[Verv]

Sex should not be a commodity but a sacred act.

Humans are naturally jealous creatures, and even more than we are jealous, we are romantic and we envision what we want in this life.

We like the idea of being the best lover ever for our spouse, not one amongst hundreds of men and women that have slept with them.

We also like the idea of people being made for each other, the idea of true love and true partnership and soul mates.

Imagine a woman who is a prostitution trying to move on with her life -- even with the most open minded people, I assume there would be an extremely large drawback to the idea of their wife being a former prostitute.

I would also like to note about south Korean prostitution:

It is not made of street walkers and I do not think the disease rate is so high (diseased prostitutes are forced to go to certain districts which are known for their cheapness and stop working in the massage parlor environment according to what I know).

Rather, what becomes of this entire situation is that we get women who become social pariahs because like above, no one wants a prostitute for a wife. And more than that, because prostitution is abundant the price is not high.

The women cannot afford to really do much with their profits. No one gets rich -- it becomes like a lower middle class job.

If you look at prostitution from the context of human society and human interaction, it is not good at all because a prostitute cannot have a fulfilling life. She will naturally be discriminated against for her work. She will be considered by women as an accomplice to adultery and as selling something that should be held in reserve for lovers, doing something that comes off as unnatural and demeaning. Men will view her as something to be bought and will not look to her as a real prospect for love.

Sociologically, since the human is attracted to the family unit, do you see how this is a really bad option for a woman?

 

[SallyNow]

Prostitution is an incredibly complicated subject. On the surface, legalization seems like a workable idea. But is it? Frankly, I don't know.

If one looks at an industry that could be somewhat related - pornography - we see legalization hasn't really made it a wonderful place to work. There's exploitation, abuse, spreading of illnesses, and exploitation of minors. It's also lucrative, a fun job for some, and has the possibility of career advancement.

But if it were made illegal, it would probably have a lot more exploitation, abuse, etc. Or would it? I don't want to see anyone try to make pornography illegal; there's too much at risk.

So really, right now, I don't know. I'd have to do a lot more research...

 

[Eudaimonist]

But if it were made illegal, it would probably have a lot more exploitation, abuse, etc. Or would it?

I would think so. It would attract more criminal personalities willing to work outside of the law, and they would be less subject to the law.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Im_A]

I am in favor of legalizing and regulating prostitution

I would like to hear other people's input on the idea of legalizing prostitution or why it should be kept criminal.

personally, i don't know how i feel. i see the side that is for it, and it makes sense.

but i see the point of it attracting more criminals to be protected under law, and really i see making an inevitable problem even worse.

plus, i have a personal disdain towards prostitutes and brothels. they get what they deserve from the choices they choose to take upon themselves.

so because of my disdain towards prostitutes and the brothels, and me seeing both points, i'm really undescided on the issue.

 

[cantata]

Sex should not be a commodity but a sacred act.

Why? And who are you to say that everyone should see it that way? Some people want to buy sex; others want to sell it. It's not your problem.

Humans are naturally jealous creatures, and even more than we are jealous, we are romantic and we envision what we want in this life.

We like the idea of being the best lover ever for our spouse, not one amongst hundreds of men and women that have slept with them.

We also like the idea of people being made for each other, the idea of true love and true partnership and soul mates.

This is not true of everyone. I don't believe in soul mates. I know that there are many different kinds of sex, that everyone is different, and that while some people are better in bed than others, there is no one perfect lover who can satisfy everybody. People have all kinds of different kinks and preferences and fancies. I don't mind that my boyfriend probably has an ex who did a certain thing he really liked, because I bring my own talents to the bedroom - and maybe he can teach me to do new things because of his past experience, and I can teach him. That's good.

Imagine a woman who is a prostitution trying to move on with her life -- even with the most open minded people, I assume there would be an extremely large drawback to the idea of their wife being a former prostitute.

I agree, it will be difficult, but the point of legalisation is not to say that prostitution is a good career choice for women, but that they deserve the protection of the state while at work.

I would also like to note about south Korean prostitution:

It is not made of street walkers and I do not think the disease rate is so high (diseased prostitutes are forced to go to certain districts which are known for their cheapness and stop working in the massage parlor environment according to what I know).

Rather, what becomes of this entire situation is that we get women who become social pariahs because like above, no one wants a prostitute for a wife. And more than that, because prostitution is abundant the price is not high.

The women cannot afford to really do much with their profits. No one gets rich -- it becomes like a lower middle class job.

If you look at prostitution from the context of human society and human interaction, it is not good at all because a prostitute cannot have a fulfilling life. She will naturally be discriminated against for her work. She will be considered by women as an accomplice to adultery and as selling something that should be held in reserve for lovers, doing something that comes off as unnatural and demeaning. Men will view her as something to be bought and will not look to her as a real prospect for love.

Sociologically, since the human is attracted to the family unit, do you see how this is a really bad option for a woman?

As I say, I do not think that prostitution is a good career move for most women, but women will prostitute themselves whether you like it or not, and they should be afforded the protection of the state. I also believe that everyone should have the right to do precisely what they want with their bodies, and that includes selling sexual services.

 

[Mling]

Thing is jmverville, and I mean this respectfully, people are not monolithic. It isn't meaningful to talk about what "people" are like, because "people" are not like anything. One person is one thing, and another person is something else.

Humans are naturally jealous creatures, and even more than we are jealous, we are romantic and we envision what we want in this life.

Not everybody is romantic, and some people actually envision a life that includes sex work. Do it the right way, and you can be your own boss and make a good deal of money doing something you like and are good at. Isn't that most people's dream job?

We like the idea of being the best lover ever for our spouse, not one amongst hundreds of men and women that have slept with them.
[\quote]

Well, somebody can be married, or in a long term relationship, and still be a prostitute. And many escorts do have plenty of repeat business--people who like them personally and think they are the best.

We also like the idea of people being made for each other, the idea of true love and true partnership and soul mates.

Some do, I do, others think it's sappy and unrealistic.

Imagine a woman who is a prostitution trying to move on with her life -- even with the most open minded people, I assume there would be an extremely large drawback to the idea of their wife being a former prostitute.

depends on the subculture.

I would also like to note about south Korean prostitution:

It is not made of street walkers and I do not think the disease rate is so high (diseased prostitutes are forced to go to certain districts which are known for their cheapness and stop working in the massage parlor environment according to what I know).

Rather, what becomes of this entire situation is that we get women who become social pariahs because like above, no one wants a prostitute for a wife. And more than that, because prostitution is abundant the price is not high.

The women cannot afford to really do much with their profits. No one gets rich -- it becomes like a lower middle class job.

If you look at prostitution from the context of human society and human interaction, it is not good at all because a prostitute cannot have a fulfilling life. She will naturally be discriminated against for her work. She will be considered by women as an accomplice to adultery and as selling something that should be held in reserve for lovers, doing something that comes off as unnatural and demeaning. Men will view her as something to be bought and will not look to her as a real prospect for love.

Sociologically, since the human is attracted to the family unit, do you see how this is a really bad option for a woman?

again, it depends on the subculture. In large cities especially, it is possible to live entirely within a social community that has norms and mores very different than the mainstream. Many people do, and don't even mean to. Except for the people I work with, nearly everybody I know is either a gamer or a historical recreationist. Discussions of how we blooded our weapons are par for the course. Everybody my father knows, outside of work, belongs to one subculture, also.

It is a fairly natural occurrence in the modern world--people who don't fit into the mainstream use the internet to discover that there are others who like the same things they do. They meet up with them in real life and suddenly are able to be themselves. For the first time, they can develop real friends like "normal" people do, and don't have to worry about shocking them. Why try to live in the mainstream, in a sort of perpetual adolescence where you're always the weird looser, once you find a community that will allow you to grow up and just live?

Sexual minorities do the same thing. There is little to no discrimination against sex workers, when 1/8 of the people in the room are sex workers, another quarterare customers, and the rest are swingers or kinky.

 

[Steezie]

Prostitution is an incredibly complicated subject. On the surface, legalization seems like a workable idea. But is it? Frankly, I don't know.

If one looks at an industry that could be somewhat related - pornography - we see legalization hasn't really made it a wonderful place to work. There's exploitation, abuse, spreading of illnesses, and exploitation of minors. It's also lucrative, a fun job for some, and has the possibility of career advancement.

But if it were made illegal, it would probably have a lot more exploitation, abuse, etc. Or would it? I don't want to see anyone try to make pornography illegal; there's too much at risk.

So really, right now, I don't know. I'd have to do a lot more research...

Historically speaking, legalization and regulation works.

During the Civil War when the Union occupied New Orleans, VD was absolutely rampant because of all the prostitutes. Something like 60 to 70% of the Union soldiers couldn't fight because of STDs.

The Union government decided to legalize and regulate prostitution with prostitutes paying a tax in exchange for medical care and regular medical checkups. If you were clean, you got a renewed license and could work.

STD rates in New Orleans dropped to the lowest in the country, North or South, until after the war and prostitution was re-banned.

Also I'd like to see STD rates for European countries where prostitution is legal and regulated compared to STD rates in the US.

 

[Verv]

Well, to put it basically, at least we have some agreement that it is not a good work choice for women.

I think legalization of it would make it far more available and would play a decent role in ruining marriages. But let me rephrase that: it wouldn't ruin marriages but husbands would ruin marriages through their decision and the openess of it would make it more likely to happen. Things like that sort of worry me but marriage has already been destroyed by and large.

It's rather hard to talk with people who do not believe in anythign remotely near to you and do not recognize similar values. We cannot jump into this discussion here but we would have to break it down to more fundamental ideas so we could at least look like we were on the same page.

 

[Steezie]

Well, to put it basically, at least we have some agreement that it is not a good work choice for women.

We did?

I think legalization of it would make it far more available and would play a decent role in ruining marriages. But let me rephrase that: it wouldn't ruin marriages but husbands would ruin marriages through their decision and the openess of it would make it more likely to happen. Things like that sort of worry me but marriage has already been destroyed by and large.

Im curious why you think its MEN that have destroyed marraige and why you seem to think that ALL prostitutes are female.

It's rather hard to talk with people who do not believe in anythign remotely near to you and do not recognize similar values. We cannot jump into this discussion here but we would have to break it down to more fundamental ideas so we could at least look like we were on the same page.

True, but you can atleast agree that on a practical level, legalizing is better than prohibiting it

 

[cantata]

Well, to put it basically, at least we have some agreement that it is not a good work choice for women.

I said not for all women. For some women under some circumstances it might be.

I think legalization of it would make it far more available and would play a decent role in ruining marriages. But let me rephrase that: it wouldn't ruin marriages but husbands would ruin marriages through their decision and the openess of it would make it more likely to happen. Things like that sort of worry me but marriage has already been destroyed by and large.

If, in a marriage, a man is inclined to sleep with prostitutes, surely there's a problem anyway, even if there are no prostitutes for him to actually do the deed with.

"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

There you have it from the lamb's mouth: the desire to do it is pretty much as worrying for the dynamic of the relationship as is the act.

Therefore the increased availability of prostitution won't lead to good marriages going bad. It'll just lead to more bad marriages ending in divorce. I don't see that as much of a loss.

It's rather hard to talk with people who do not believe in anythign remotely near to you and do not recognize similar values. We cannot jump into this discussion here but we would have to break it down to more fundamental ideas so we could at least look like we were on the same page.

This is a fair point.

 

[quatona]

Well, to put it basically, at least we have some agreement that it is not a good work choice for women.

I´m not aware that this is my opinion.

 

[Verv]

We did?

Was for Cantata.

Im curious why you think its MEN that have destroyed marraige and why you seem to think that ALL prostitutes are female.

In South Korea, I have never seen a place advertising sex for men. However, if you were to walk four normal city blocks and not see one or to get off at a train station and not see a dozen prostitution houses for men, you would truly be in an odd part of town.

I think it would be a contributing factor in ending marriages because I do not know any wife that would be delighted to hear that her husband was seeing prostitutes.

True, but you can atleast agree that on a practical level, legalizing is better than prohibiting it

Well, no.

If it was legal we would draw more and more and more people into it and it would spread around to a large extent; prostitution would go from street walkers and occasional massage parlors to being nearly everywhere.

In South Korea, it is hard to walk down streets iwthout being confronted. Some people are physically grabbed. I have had women come up to me and pull the ear phones out of my ear to ask me if I wanted to do it.

It is not a healthy environment and I wouldn't want to see America become like that.

I said not for all women. For some women under some circumstances it might be.

I think by and large it is generally worse.

If, in a marriage, a man is inclined to sleep with prostitutes, surely there's a problem anyway, even if there are no prostitutes for him to actually do the deed with.

Yes but I think that the point of no return is when he begins frequenting prostitutes

There you have it from the lamb's mouth: the desire to do it is pretty much as worrying for the dynamic of the relationship as is the act.

Therefore the increased availability of prostitution won't lead to good marriages going bad. It'll just lead to more bad marriages ending in divorce. I don't see that as much of a loss.

I think that if a man could not do it and kept it in his mind and mind alone, it is easier for someone to deal with. Though it is in many ways the same, there can always be an uncertainty in the mind. There's always a way back so to speak.

The idea is right: it is a great sin to fantasize this and desire this same thing.

However, I think it is worse. To murder somebody is worse than to have thought of murdering them though both are great sins.

I´m not aware that this is my opinion.

Sorry it was for Cantata -- I should be more clear about that.

 

[ranmaonehalf]

A semi related amusing story i thought i'd share:

WARSAW (Reuters) - A Polish man got the shock of his life when he visited a brothel and spotted his wife among the establishment's employees.

Polish tabloid Super Express said the woman had been making some extra money on the side while telling her husband she worked at a store in a nearby town.
...
And what was the guy doing there? Checking the gas meter?

lol... hey she was just doing her job, he was the one sleeping with prostitutes.

 

[Eudaimonist]

lol... hey she was just doing her job, he was the one sleeping with prostitutes.

Hey, he was just helping the poor by providing employment opportunities. It was an act of charity! You're not against helping the poor, are you?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[ranmaonehalf]

Hey, he was just helping the poor by providing employment opportunities. It was an act of charity! You're not against helping the poor, are you?


eudaimonia,

Mark

i never said i was against it or for it. i am speaking at terms of fault for their divorce.

and your assuming they are poor.

 

[Eudaimonist]

i never said i was against it or for it. i am speaking at terms of fault for their divorce.

and your assuming they are poor.

In case it wasn't clear, I was just joking.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[The Bellman]

I think it would be a contributing factor in ending marriages because I do not know any wife that would be delighted to hear that her husband was seeing prostitutes.

Except that you have absolutely no evidence that it would be a contributing factor in ending marriages. Most importantly, you have no evidence that the number of marriages it ends would rise if it became legal.

If it was legal we would draw more and more and more people into it and it would spread around to a large extent; prostitution would go from street walkers and occasional massage parlors to being nearly everywhere.

And you have no evidence to support that claim, either.

In South Korea, it is hard to walk down streets iwthout being confronted. Some people are physically grabbed. I have had women come up to me and pull the ear phones out of my ear to ask me if I wanted to do it.

In the most populous state of Australia, New South Wales, prostitution is legal, and it's not even remotely as you describe above. People can and do go through their entire lives without even knowing of the existence of a single brothel.

It is not a healthy environment and I wouldn't want to see America become like that.

Nor would I. However, there is zero reason to think that it would become like that if prostitution were legalised. Has Nevada become like that? Of course not.

 

[Mling]

Was for Cantata.



In South Korea, I have never seen a place advertising sex for men. However, if you were to walk four normal city blocks and not see one or to get off at a train station and not see a dozen prostitution houses for men, you would truly be in an odd part of town.

I think it would be a contributing factor in ending marriages because I do not know any wife that would be delighted to hear that her husband was seeing prostitutes.



Well, no.

If it was legal we would draw more and more and more people into it and it would spread around to a large extent; prostitution would go from street walkers and occasional massage parlors to being nearly everywhere.

In South Korea, it is hard to walk down streets iwthout being confronted. Some people are physically grabbed. I have had women come up to me and pull the ear phones out of my ear to ask me if I wanted to do it.

It is not a healthy environment and I wouldn't want to see America become like that.



I think by and large it is generally worse.



Yes but I think that the point of no return is when he begins frequenting prostitutes



I think that if a man could not do it and kept it in his mind and mind alone, it is easier for someone to deal with. Though it is in many ways the same, there can always be an uncertainty in the mind. There's always a way back so to speak.

The idea is right: it is a great sin to fantasize this and desire this same thing.

However, I think it is worse. To murder somebody is worse than to have thought of murdering them though both are great sins.



Sorry it was for Cantata -- I should be more clear about that.

I'm curious why you keep bringing up South Korea, at times when America or Europe is really more relevant (Europe because it is certainly closer in culture to America than Korea is, but has legal prostitution in places). Maybe in South Korea they don't have many male prostitutes, but in America and Europe, there are plenty. There is no reason to assume that America would suddenly adopt a Korean culture, simply because one part of our legal system came to better resemble the Korean legal system.

Likewise, I doubt that Korea is as litigious as America is. Grabbing somebody is technically assault, and plenty of people know that, and are willing to sue. That sits heavily in the minds of most protesters and other people in America who might be driven to touch somebody. No reason to assume that the desire for a potential customer would override that.

And, legalizing prostitution would not necessarily mean legalizing streetwalking. That's a key point to the idea of legalizing and regulating. When something is made legal, in some ways, but still illegal in others, most people who want to do it will do it the legal way. In Vegas the only legal form of prostitution is working in a licenced brothel. Soliciting in the street is not.

 

[Steezie]

In South Korea, I have never seen a place advertising sex for men. However, if you were to walk four normal city blocks and not see one or to get off at a train station and not see a dozen prostitution houses for men, you would truly be in an odd part of town.

Good four South Korea, this is not South Korea.

I think it would be a contributing factor in ending marriages because I do not know any wife that would be delighted to hear that her husband was seeing prostitutes.

And as has already been pointed out, a man visiting prostitutes is indicative that there is ALREADY a problem, not one that the prostitute caused.

Well, no.

If it was legal we would draw more and more and more people into it and it would spread around to a large extent; prostitution would go from street walkers and occasional massage parlors to being nearly everywhere.

Im talking about public health. Would you rather have prostitution the way it is now, illegal and responsible for the spread of a number of STDs and jailing a large number of people for something that isnt illegal to do for free. Or if its legalized and regulated, watch the STD rates drop like a stone and not fill prisons up with people who've done nothing but get a little randy.

In South Korea, it is hard to walk down streets iwthout being confronted. Some people are physically grabbed. I have had women come up to me and pull the ear phones out of my ear to ask me if I wanted to do it.

Again, this is not South Korea. Restrictions need to be implemented on where and how prostitutes can solicit clients which is part of LEGALIZING it.

It is not a healthy environment and I wouldn't want to see America become like that.

I think its even less desireable to have it be illegal and the multitude of problems that stem from its illegality.

Yes but I think that the point of no return is when he begins frequenting prostitutes

I think thats ridiculous

The idea is right: it is a great sin to fantasize this and desire this same thing.

Well good thing laws are not made on a theological base.


Lets look at this from a completely objective standpoint, no theology, no ethics, just straight practicality.

Prostitution Made Illegal-

• Opens the door to abuse by pimps and by johns/janes with no ability to report for fear of arrest
• Gives the drug trade a huge boost as many pimps use drugs to control the prostitutes, getting them hooked on drugs and only providing their fix if they pay.
• Gives a boost to STD rates as there is no requirement that a prostitute be clean before he/she works
• Makes criminals out of people for no other reason than wanting to have sex, which is not a crime if done for free
• It wastes cops' time chasing after small change when they have much bigger things to worry about

Prostitution Made Legal-

• Prostitutes have a legal recourse for abuse by johns/janes
• The drug connection is broken as there is no longer a need for pimps
• STD rates fall as one of the requirements for working is a clean bill of health
• Prostitution moves off the streets with restrictions on where prostitutes can solicit
• The criminal element disapears because there is no longer a need for pimps to control the prostitutes and they can work independantly
• You add MILLIONS in income tax revenues (one of the requirements for a liscense is properly filed income taxes)
• You gain an effective tool for fighting the spread of HIV/AIDS if you institute the Clean Card

Pluses seem to out-weigh the minuses.

For reference, a Clean Card is a card from a john/jane issued by a hospital or other health organization stating that the person with the card is free of STDs or other communicable health risks.