Proposition 8 overturned in California

[Jase]

Which Bible translation do you read?

All of them if need be. I was taught the Torah in Hebrew as a little kid. I do not hold very much weight, however, to any English Bible other than to get overarching themes. I do not trust the accuracy of most translations.

 

[MoonLancer]

*sigh*

You guys are still missing the point. I realize that we don't have Christian laws. I understand that there is separation of church and state. What I've been trying to say is that God never required that separation, man did. As Christians, we SHOULD strive to have Christian laws based on the Christian faith. To say that we should be happy with secular laws goes against what the bible says:

some Christians couldn't/wouldn't share public space with other faiths. That's why secular laws are needed. If you want Christianity to decide the laws, what your suggesting is nothing less then a theocracy, which i will fight with all the power I possess.

 

[MoonLancer]

I still haven't seen an answer to this

Jesus stated 2 Laws were the most important, what were they, and do you want them written into the State Laws ?

what are they? (you can tell me in pm if you like)

 

[Cabal]

lolz

Prop 8 Overturned! Here's Some Anti-Gay Protesters Getting Owned (PHOTOS)

 

[selfinflikted]

Heck no. Freakin treehugger class! Priest, Lock, and Mage are my main classes. Rogue was my original, but they are too twitchy.

Color me a hippie then (dr00d4lyfe!)

Warriors forever. Prot spec PvP owns the face off everything if played correctly

Yea, and IF you have a nice tree healing you (and lolpriests ((except DISC Priests. Immortal, I tell ya)))

I'd probably join in if you do. My son has been trying to get me to play.

T

You should play. You'll wonder why you didn't sooner

 

[pgp_protector]

some Christians couldn't/wouldn't share public space with other faiths. That's why secular laws are needed. If you want Christianity to decide the laws, what your suggesting is nothing less then a theocracy, which i will fight with all the power I possess.

I'll join the fight with you, theocracy's ruled by humans never turn out well.

 

[pgp_protector]

Color me a hippie then (dr00d4lyfe!)



Yea, and IF you have a nice tree healing you (and lolpriests ((except DISC Priests. Immortal, I tell ya)))



You should play. You'll wonder why you didn't sooner

Went to look my character, and can't even view them on the Armory anymore (Been inactive too long )
Level 70 Human Fire Mage. (Scarlet Crusade Server)

 

[Staccato]

Yea, and IF you have a nice tree healing you (and lolpriests ((except DISC Priests. Immortal, I tell ya)))

I love my trees. They regrow! They nourish! They follow me around as I have all the fun!

TO ME MY ARBOREAL SLAVES!

You should play. You'll wonder why you didn't sooner

WoW has a 'enjoyment period', during which everything is magical and wonderous. It lasts right up to the moment you lose a need roll on a tanking melee weapon to a hunter.

Then all goes grey as you notice everything that is wrong with the world


....of warcraft.

 

[kiwimac]

Right, my turn.

1: The only time that a Christian should countenance a theocracy is in looking forward to Jesus' return. All human theocracies have failed utterly.

2: The law is not decided by how acceptable it is to the populace, to quote Judge Walker

"fundamental rights may not be submitted to [a] vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections"

3: I am afraid Sojourner and PW that your versions of Christianity are not normative for all Christians nor yet can you convince me that your versions of US-centric evangelical speak for all Christians everywhere.

4: Neither Abortion nor Homosexuality are condemned in scripture. Some English translations condemn homosexuality but a century or so ago those scriptures were mostly being used to condemn masturbation.

5: Pffft on both Warhammer 40k and WoW, I prefer Oblivion.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Does the Bible not also say that you should submit to governmental authority? Obviously, God's law would override this, but I don't recall any verse that states that you must restrict other people's freedoms. I believe the verses regarding homosexuality tell the reader what to do, not tell the reader what to force other people to do.

And I don't think that's the argument I've been making, either. As I've pointed out, I don't care if homosexuals marry. Go, marry, whatever! It doesn't change what I view to be a marriage or how I view God's view of a marriage. But if someone used the law to say that our church had to marry homosexuals (not saying that it has been or even will be, just laying out the scenario) you can bet that our church would buck the law and go with God's law instead, which says that marriage is between a man and a woman. We would absolutely refuse to perform a same sex marriage, just as we have refused to perform marriages of other people involved in sexual immorality.

I said early on that it should've never been an issue to be voted on, period.

 

[pgp_protector]

...snip...

5: Pffft on both Warhammer 40k and WoW, I prefer Oblivion.

Goes looking for their Oblivion DVD

 

[Maren]

I honestly don't have the time it would take to go through this thread and find all the examples of forcing a viewpoint or intolerance. From what I have read in multiple threads in E&M right now (since Prop 8 was overturned) I have noticed quite a bit of intolerance toward Christians who don't believe in gay marriage and I have also noticed a lot of comments directed at Christians challenging their beliefs in a disrespectful way. It's difficult to try to have a respectful discussion when people resort to calling you a religious nutjob, conservative fundie wacko, or a racist bigot.

The problem with using E&M is that the intolerance goes both ways. There are people on both sides who act poorly and toss around "hurtful" words. Beyond that, I think you would find that it is not the majority on either side that tosses those types of terms around.

OTOH, is that really a good example of intolerance. On one had, you have people thinking they should be treated equally under the law and other people who actively work to keep those people from being treated equally by the law (in terms of marriage, housing, employment, etc.). On the other side you have people who are getting called "bigot" because they are working to keep these people from being treated equally under the law. Are both sides really being equally intolerant?

 

[kiwimac]

Goes looking for their Oblivion DVD

 

[Staccato]

5: Pffft on both Warhammer 40k and WoW, I prefer Oblivion.

Oh, a wise guy eh?

[Didn't much care for Oblivion, especially not for its broken world-levelling system]

 

[Maren]

*sigh*

You guys are still missing the point. I realize that we don't have Christian laws. I understand that there is separation of church and state. What I've been trying to say is that God never required that separation, man did. As Christians, we SHOULD strive to have Christian laws based on the Christian faith. To say that we should be happy with secular laws goes against what the bible says:

James 4:4
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

I've shown that I don't care if homosexuals marry. You can call yourself married all you want - it doesn't mean that I'm going to consider you married or consider your marriage valid.

What I don't understand is why living your religion requires the law to match your religious beliefs? Do you think it would be right for the Mormon's in Utah to apply their beliefs to the law, to the point that other churches have trouble being allowed to live their beliefs? What if the Mormons decided the only legally recognizable marriages should be the ones that occur in their temples? What if they decide that your church (should you live in an area where the "Mormon" laws apply) cannot use wine in your services because they've enacted prohibition?

If there were a law that would restrict your religious freedoms, prohibit you from living your beliefs without breaking the law, I can see where you would vote your religion (and I think most of us here would join you). This is what I don't understand. Gays getting married does not impact your beliefs or your religion, so why should you limit the freedoms (and to a degree, their religious beliefs to a legal marriage) of those who believe differently?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

What I don't understand is why living your religion requires the law to match your religious beliefs? Do you think it would be right for the Mormon's in Utah to apply their beliefs to the law, to the point that other churches have trouble being allowed to live their beliefs? What if the Mormons decided the only legally recognizable marriages should be the ones that occur in their temples? What if they decide that your church (should you live in an area where the "Mormon" laws apply) cannot use wine in your services because they've enacted prohibition?

Maren, what I said is that Christians should strive for Christian laws, not that we could only have Christian laws. Christian law is not inherently evil as people would like to make it out to be. I believe marriage is a religious (or personal one for those not religious) issue and shouldn't be a part of any government laws.

If there were a law that would restrict your religious freedoms, prohibit you from living your beliefs without breaking the law, I can see where you would vote your religion (and I think most of us here would join you). This is what I don't understand. Gays getting married does not impact your beliefs or your religion, so why should you limit the freedoms (and to a degree, their religious beliefs to a legal marriage) of those who believe differently?

I don't want to limit their freedoms. I've said countless times that marriage should not be a voteable issue. (according to my computer's spell check, I just made up a word there. Heh.)

 

[SithDoughnut]

5: Pffft on both Warhammer 40k and WoW, I prefer Oblivion.

I agree, although it excels even further when you actually get it to properly work as a game. I currently have 3.6gb of mods for that game. Mind you, it is absolutely brilliant as a result.

Or, you could just play Morrowind, which is infinitely better. Provided you hate combat. And sneaking. And life-like places...

 

[Maren]

Maren, what I said is that Christians should strive for Christian laws, not that we could only have Christian laws. Christian law is not inherently evil as people would like to make it out to be. I believe marriage is a religious (or personal one for those not religious) issue and shouldn't be a part of any government laws.



I don't want to limit their freedoms. I've said countless times that marriage should not be a voteable issue. (according to my computer's spell check, I just made up a word there. Heh.)

I think the problem is that you mentioned voting for "Christian laws" which brings up the idea of a theocratic type of rule -- which regardless of the root religion has pretty much always been a bad thing. This is much of the reason for the Founding Fathers being inclined toward Freedom of Religion and a government that is secular.

As such, if you said you believe in voting your conscience as a Christian, as opposed to Christian law, I don't think people wouldn't have the same reaction. I don't think most people have the problem with Christianity but rather with how "Christian values" and "Christian Laws" have been co-opted by political groups to push a political agenda.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I think the problem is that you mentioned voting for "Christian laws" which brings up the idea of a theocratic type of rule -- which regardless of the root religion has pretty much always been a bad thing. This is much of the reason for the Founding Fathers being inclined toward Freedom of Religion and a government that is secular.

Well, if I as a Christian believe that abortion is wrong, I'm going to vote against any law that would make it okay.

As such, if you said you believe in voting your conscience as a Christian, as opposed to Christian law, I don't think people wouldn't have the same reaction. I don't think most people have the problem with Christianity but rather with how "Christian values" and "Christian Laws" have been co-opted by political groups to push a political agenda.

and I can see where that could be an issue.

 

[Gishin]

Well, if I as a Christian believe that abortion is wrong, I'm going to vote against any law that would make it okay.

A law comes along outlawing Atheism. Would you vote against it?