Prophecy as a Means for Validating the Bible.

Tiberius · Jun 27, 2011

In several threads recently, I've seen mentioned that Biblical prophecy is evidence (or even proof) that the Bible is inerrant. I of course disagree with this claim.

Another atheist on here, VehementisDominus, posted a list of four things that a prophecy would need to have in order for it to be considered a true prophecy.

VehementisDominus said:
A) Is specific enough, for example, a date, a location and an event. Something so specific that you don't need to "interpret" it.

B) Something completely out of the hands of mankind, for example, a hurricane, an earthquake, a volcanic eruption, a tsunami, etc. This means that it can't possibly be self-fulfilling.

C) Something that can be shown to've happened, nothing self-contained in the Bible. Something that can be externally verified.

D) Something that it would've been impossible to accurately predict based on available evidence at the time the prophecy was made. Saying that it's going to rain tomorrow isn't a valid prophecy.

So, I gotta ask, can any believers show me such a prophecy in the Bible? Please bear in mind that I'm after prophecies that do not fall into any of the above categories.

So if you post a prophecy from the Bible and then show me a different part of the Bible where the prophecy is fulfilled, it doesn't count, because it fits into category C.

AV1611VET · Jun 27, 2011

Tiberius said:
So if you post a prophecy from the Bible and then show me a different part of the Bible where the prophecy is fulfilled, it doesn't count, because it fits into category C.

Then you have a big problem.

Since the Bible is made of 66 books, that means a prophecy made in one book, and fulfilled in another, would constitute a valid fulfillment.

A good example is Josiah being called -- by name -- 350 years before his birth.

When Josiah actually took the throne, and did what was prophesied of him, no one contested it; even when it was pointed out to be a fulfilled prophecy.

My point is, the Bible has a list of fulfilled prophecies that have already been validated by those who were there and much more qualified to judge them.

I would say a phone book from the early 1900's would be a good example.

Hentenza · Jun 27, 2011

Thread moved from Philosophy to Exploring Christianity

drich0150 · Jun 27, 2011

AV1611VET said:
Then you have a big problem.

Since the Bible is made of 66 books, that means a prophecy made in one book, and fulfilled in another, would constitute a valid fulfillment.

A good example is Josiah being called -- by name -- 350 years before his birth.

When Josiah actually took the throne, and did what was prophesied of him, no one contested it; even when it was pointed out to be a fulfilled prophecy.

My point is, the Bible has a list of fulfilled prophecies that have already been validated by those who were there and much more qualified to judge them.

I would say a phone book from the early 1900's would be a good example.

Tiberius · Jun 27, 2011

Well thank you for moving this thread, as now I am the only non-Christian who is able to post here. I did not start this thread to have only Christians reply to it, I want everyone to be able to reply (which is precisely why I started the thread outside Exploring Christianity in the first place). Could you please move it to a location where that can be done?

Hentenza · Jun 27, 2011

Tiberius said:
Well thank you for moving this thread, as now I am the only non-Christian who is able to post here. I did not start this thread to have only Christians reply to it, I want everyone to be able to reply. Could you please move it to a location where that can be done?

The thread is OT to philosophy and we do not have an apologetics forum where unbelievers can participate. This is the only forum where your thread can remain.

AlexBP · Jun 27, 2011

I would say that the most significant prophecies are the ones issued by Jesus himself. During his lifetime on earth, Jesus was a carpenter and a itinerant preachers with an inner circle of twelve disciples and a larger, looser following of unknown size, but it couldn't have been that large. His ministry was restricted to Galilee, Jerusalem, and a few towns in Palestine. So, by any common sense standard, the smart prediction would have been that his teaching and his movement were a trivial thing in history that would disappear soon after his death. Nevertheless he made the following predictions:

His followers would teach his message, make disciples, and baptize believers in every nation. [Matthew 28:16-20]

The Church founded by Saint Peter would endure, despite attacks on it by evil forces. [Matthew 16:13-20]

Jesus's own words would endure perpetually. [Mark 13:31]

Pretenders will come, some falsely claiming to be Jesus and others falsely claiming to speak for him. [Luke 21:8-9]

Followers of Jesus will be hated because they do not follow the way of the world, will be pushed to the margins of society, and will be killed.
[John 15:18-16:4]

Followers of Jesus will be arrested and brought before the authorities and forced to testify about their beliefs. [Luke 21:12-17]

All of these predictions would have sounded preposterous at the time that Jesus made them, but all of them have come true throughout history and are still coming true today, at least in parts of of the world.

Of course you might nitpick that all these things involve humankind and thus don't meet condition B, but that's an unfair condition. Naturally Jesus was concerned only with humankind.

Tiberius · Jun 28, 2011

Hentenza said:
The thread is OT to philosophy and we do not have an apologetics forum where unbelievers can participate. This is the only forum where your thread can remain.

Perhaps you should open such a forum. This isn't the first time I have been unable to have a thread where all can participate.

ebia · Jun 28, 2011

Such a forum existed. Management decided to discontinue it because it got too nasty.

If you want that kind of open debate you'll need to find another site.

Hentenza · Jun 28, 2011

Tiberius said:
Perhaps you should open such a forum. This isn't the first time I have been unable to have a thread where all can participate.

And it probably will not be the last. GA was closed because neither side could play nice. It became a cesspool. There are no plans to reopen it.

Hentenza · Jun 28, 2011

From the Exploring Christianity statement of purpose found here.

We recognize that real seekers are looking for real answers, and the first reply given may be insufficient to achieve this. It is acceptable for the Original Poster (OP) to probe the answers given, and to continue the discussion on lines which help to clarify their understanding of the Christian faith. If another non-Christian seeker wishes to ask questions about the Christian faith, they may start their own thread. No more than one non-Christian (the OP) may post in a thread.

Some posts have been deleted to comply with the SoP of this forum. Please respect the posting rules.

VehementisDominus · Jun 28, 2011

Delteed.

Biker Angel · Jun 28, 2011

Tiberius said:
Perhaps you should open such a forum. This isn't the first time I have been unable to have a thread where all can participate.

There is a good reason for that!

ebia said:
Such a forum existed. Management decided to discontinue it because it got too nasty.
If you want that kind of open debate you'll need to find another site.

@Tiberius- See, I told you there's a good reason.

Hentenza said:
And it probably will not be the last. GA was closed because neither side could play nice. It became a cesspool. There are no plans to reopen it.

@Tiberius- You see, if you were a Christian then you wouldn't be having this problem.

VehementisDominus said:
Delteed.

Dude, I tried to post on your new thread but when I checked, the whole thread was gone. Better luck next time.

Tiberius · Jun 28, 2011

Biker for Christ said:
@Tiberius- You see, if you were a Christian then you wouldn't be having this problem.

You mean a Christian can open a thread like this in a location where any and all can post in it?

I didn't start this thread to be the only atheist in a bunch of Christians who are telling me why I am wrong. And I certainly didn't start this thread with the aim of getting reasons why Christianity is right. I started this thread so everyone can discuss the validity of using biblical prophecy as a means of validating the Bible. It seems obvious that the admins refuse to allow such a discussion, and it is the non-Christians who lose out. Close the thread. I want to have the discussion the way I originally wanted it. I don't want what you've forced it to become.

I already have quite a good understanding of Christianity (as do many atheists), so I am not looking for "real answers", as you describe it. Is that meant to imply that nothing short of Christianity is a real answer? Anyone who is not Christian is just wrong? I don't really like that attitude.

Like I said, close the thread.

AV1611VET · Jun 28, 2011

Tiberius said:
You mean a Christian can open a thread like this in a location where any and all can post in it?

I didn't start this thread to be the only atheist in a bunch of Christians who are telling me why I am wrong. And I certainly didn't start this thread with the aim of getting reasons why Christianity is right. I started this thread so everyone can discuss the validity of using biblical prophecy as a means of validating the Bible. It seems obvious that the admins refuse to allow such a discussion, and it is the non-Christians who lose out. Close the thread. I want to have the discussion the way I originally wanted it. I don't want what you've forced it to become.

In other words, you didn't start it to learn ... you just started it to see the fireworks?

Biker Angel · Jun 28, 2011

AV1611VET said:
In other words, you didn't start it to learn ... you just started it to see the fireworks?

I agree

Tiberius · Jun 28, 2011

AV1611VET said:
In other words, you didn't start it to learn ... you just started it to see the fireworks?

No, I just didn't want this to be a thread with a whole bunch of Christians telling me how wrong I am. I wanted it to be a thread where EVERYONE can respond. And the admins won't allow that.

paul becke said:
No. You need us. We don't need you here at.all.

Only in the sense that it's hard for an atheist to debate with a Christian if there are no Christians.

Atheists can dish it out, but get very upset when Christians don't 'turn the other cheek', but mock them roundly. Moderators are wont to delete such posts. Different when it's scoffing, sneering, atheist dimwits. They are given 'carte blanche'.

Oh, feel the Christian love. What is your problem? I just wanted this to be a thread where everyone could come and discuss the issue I mentioned. And you've come in here and started badmouthing atheists. If I started calling all Christians dimwits for what they believed, I'd be booted out pretty quick. Why should it be any different for you?

FreeinChrist · Jun 28, 2011

MOD HAT

Closing this thread at OP request

Prophecy as a Means for Validating the Bible.

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