Prophecy and History

[RandyPNW]

Revelation 12 is about Jesus introducing John to the dragon and in particular what the Dragon will be doing during the last 42 months. The dragon is mentioned 32 times in this chapter. Revelation 12:1-5 is written as a parenthesis. It was John recording how the Dragon tried to kill Jesus as a young boy. That part of this chapter was a history lesson for John.

Yes, that's the point I was trying to make, that these visions are not guaranteed to be sequential either within each vision or in relationship of one vision to another. They follow a story line, but that doesn't mean each vision is chronological with respect to one another.

Dan 12 is largely about the endtimes and the 3.5 year reign of Antichrist, but it is looked at through the eyes of a long war between God and Satan, flashing back to when Jesus was a child.

Verse 6 is a real-time verse only seconds after the abomination. It is about those in Judea beginning to flee. Next, and again only seconds after the abomination, Michael goes to war with Satan to drive him out of the heavenly (high places) realm.

I can't really say what the "fleeing from Satan" is all about, but I don't connect it to the "fleeing" of Jesus' Disciples from the Abomination of Desolation, which I believe was in 66-70 AD.

The timing of Revelation 14 is some unknown time shortly after the abomination.

Sorry, no AoD is even mentioned in Revelation.

After the angel messages, the Beast and False prophet will begin to enforce the mark, so the days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of will begin. This is confirmed in chapter 15 when the martyrs of the Beasts begin to show up in heaven.

What then are the two harvests in Rev. 14? It should be obvious. The two beasts will entice the whole world to be killing so many who will refuse their mark, I suspect it will make the holocaust seem insignificant. The first sickle harvest then, is to represent the murder of the saints by beheading.

I see the harvest as the end of the age, just as Jesus defined it. It is referring to what happens in the Battle of Armageddon.

The second sickle harvest, that comes with wrath, is pointing to the Battle of Armageddon and the sheep and goat judgment where the wicked will be killed.

I find no coming here in chapter 14 either.

To me, most all of the visions speak of the 2nd Coming, and of the need for us to anticipate judgment. It's an encouragement to the Church to stay strong, endure in the faith, and encourage others to repent of their sins. This is a Gospel message, and not a prophetic scenario that we need to interpret chronologically.

 

[RandyPNW]

I find a FEW places where I believe John wrote as with parentheses—only a few. For example, I believe Revelation 11:7 to 13 are written as a parenthesis, where John takes the reader down the last half of the week with the Two Witnesses only. I believe Revelation 13, after perhaps verse 5, is a parenthesis, where John takes the reader down the last half of the week with the Beast and False prophet only.

I think there is ample proof that chapters 11, 12, and 13 are midpoint chapters. Each has one or more countdowns from the midpoint to the end of the week.


I find NO flashbacks. I find NO repetitions. I think these things are more imagined than real.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I have no problem with that!

 

[RandyPNW]

I guess "to each his own." I read most of the book of Revelation very different than you do.

Yes, I don't insist on my own way, because 1) I'm fallible, and 2) only the Holy Spirit can convict. We need to say what we think, and let God do the helping. But I've been studying this for over 50 years. So there's that....

 

[iamlamad]

Yes, that's the point I was trying to make, that these visions are not guaranteed to be sequential either within each vision or in relationship of one vision to another. They follow a story line, but that doesn't mean each vision is chronological with respect to one another.

Dan 12 is largely about the endtimes and the 3.5 year reign of Antichrist, but it is looked at through the eyes of a long war between God and Satan, flashing back to when Jesus was a child.

I can't really say what the "fleeing from Satan" is all about, but I don't connect it to the "fleeing" of Jesus' Disciples from the Abomination of Desolation, which I believe was in 66-70 AD.

Sorry, no AoD is even mentioned in Revelation.

I see the harvest as the end of the age, just as Jesus defined it. It is referring to what happens in the Battle of Armageddon.

To me, most all of the visions speak of the 2nd Coming, and of the need for us to anticipate judgment. It's an encouragement to the Church to stay strong, endure in the faith, and encourage others to repent of their sins. This is a Gospel message, and not a prophetic scenario that we need to interpret chronologically.

We don't or shouldn't understand one verse from that verse alone, but from every other verse in the bible on that subject. Jesus told those in Judea to flee when they saw the abomination, and in 12:6 we see that fleeing. It is in a midpoint chapter. We know that from the five mentions of the countdowns to the end of the week from chapters 11, 12, and 13. From Daniel we know that an abomination will cause the daily sacrifices to cease.

Yes, they did cease in 70 AD. But is that what the book of Revelation is all about? I don't think there is a chance of that. Revelation 4 & 5 starts out with Jesus under the earth, then resurrected and ascended, then sending down the Holy Spirit and then Him opening the seals. The seals cover the church age. The first seal was opened when Jesus sent the church out with the gospel. The 7th seal begins the 70th week of Daniel. The trumpets take up the first half, and the 7th trumpet will sound when the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is God. The 7th trumpet is written in chapter 11, with two countdowns of events starting at the midpoint and going to the end of the week.

Then in 12:6 we find those in Judea fleeing—exactly as Jesus told them to. Then the war in heaven will take place and Satan will be cast down, very angry. (This is the third woe.) Then in chapter 13 John saw the Beast rise to power - without a doubt, the man of sin now possessed by the devil. Chapter 13 then tells us what the two beasts will do during the last half of the week: create an image and force people to bow, or lose their heads, and create a mark; then force people to receive their mark or lose their heads. These events explain what will cause those days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of.

Then chapter 14 shows us events that must happen just before the days of GT begin. Finally, those days will begin late in chapter 14 or some short time after the abomination. Then chapter 15 introduces us to the angels with the plagues and bowls of wrath. God will use the bowls of His wrath to shorten those days of GT. Finally, the WEEK will end at the 7th bowl.

Chapters 17 and 18 show us the final destruction of the planet, as a great, world wide earthquake levels the mountains and the cities of the world.

Then chapter 19 is Christ's return to earth and to ARmageddon. I think John's book is very chronological.

 

[iamlamad]

I can't really say what the "fleeing from Satan" is all about, but I don't connect it to the "fleeing" of Jesus' Disciples from the Abomination of Desolation, which I believe was in 66-70 AD.

One day soon The rapture will take place, the 6th and 7th seals will be opened so that the book can finally be opened, which will begin the 70th week of Daniel. The first six trumpets begin the destruction ("hurt") on the earth, and the 7th trumpet will mark the midpoint of the week. It is at the 7th trumpet that Adam's 6000 year lease will expire. Suddenly he will find he has no more legal hold to anything so the kingdoms of the world are taken from him and given to Jesus—a property closing where ownership exchanges—done in the court room of heaven. Now that Satan has no more legal hold to earth, the war in heaven will take place and Satan will be cast down, VERY ANGRY. He immediately goes after those in Judea who will flee. That is what "fleeing from Satan" is all about.

You are wise. The fleeing is not in any way connected to 70 AD. One would have to look VERY hard, like reading between the lines, to find any part of 70 AD in Revelation. That event was history when John wrote this book, according to tradition.

 

[iamlamad]

Sorry, no AoD is even mentioned in Revelation.

It does not have to be written to know it happens. We can determine that the AOD took place in chapter 11, from what we read in chapter 12 about the fleeing in chapter 6 and then the supernatural protection we read about later in the chapter. There are also strong hints of the AOD because of the five countdowns from the midpoint of the week to the end of the week. It all fits like a hand in a glove.

 

[RandyPNW]

It does not have to be written to know it happens. We can determine that the AOD took place in chapter 11, from what we read in chapter 12 about the fleeing in chapter 6 and then the supernatural protection we read about later in the chapter. There are also strong hints of the AOD because of the five countdowns from the midpoint of the week to the end of the week. It all fits like a hand in a glove.

Sorry, all I hear is your own voice. The Bible doesn't say anything explicitly referencing the AoD. Matching similar concepts is not identification.

 

[RandyPNW]

We don't or shouldn't understand one verse from that verse alone, but from every other verse in the bible on that subject. Jesus told those in Judea to flee when they saw the abomination, and in 12:6 we see that fleeing. It is in a midpoint chapter. We know that from the five mentions of the countdowns to the end of the week from chapters 11, 12, and 13. From Daniel we know that an abomination will cause the daily sacrifices to cease.

You're not making your case by repeating the same assertions. You need biblical statements, but you don't have them. "Fleeing" in one place in the Bible is not the same event in another place in the Bible that mentions "fleeing!"

Being in the middle of the book of Revelation does *not* make it the midpoint of the fulfillments of that book! Rev 12 contains a flashback, and speaks of the final 3.5 years of the age, the reign of Antichrist. That reign is mentioned through the rest of the book in a variety of ways. So is the "midpoint" of the Revelation, then, the rest of the book?

Yes, they did cease in 70 AD. But is that what the book of Revelation is all about? I don't think there is a chance of that.

Actually, symbolic pictures of the Temple ark is given in the book of Revelation. 12 tribes of Israel are mentioned in the Revelation. These things are clearly in the past, and yet they are used to symbolize the New Testament realities in Christ. The destruction of the Temple Worship in 70 AD reinforces what John displays in the Revelation that Christ is the Lamb sacrificed for the sins of the world. The true temple is God and the Lamb.

Revelation 4 & 5 starts out with Jesus under the earth, then resurrected and ascended, then sending down the Holy Spirit and then Him opening the seals. The seals cover the church age. The first seal was opened when Jesus sent the church out with the gospel. The 7th seal begins the 70th week of Daniel. The trumpets take up the first half, and the 7th trumpet will sound when the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is God. The 7th trumpet is written in chapter 11, with two countdowns of events starting at the midpoint and going to the end of the week.

You are trying to correlate different prophetic ideas where the Bible makes no effort to do that! The Man of Sin is not even introduced until Rev 13! So why are you trying to correlate it with Seals and Trumpets?

The Seals simply indicates that Christ unveils prophetic history that without him could not be unveiled. And the Trumpets announce divine judgments that will bring in the Kingdom of God.

Why make it over-complicated with timing schemes, and correlations? It's much simpler than that! The Revelation isn't for the clever and wise, but for those who want to receive encouragement to be righteous and victorious.

Then in 12:6 we find those in Judea fleeing—exactly as Jesus told them to. Then the war in heaven will take place and Satan will be cast down, very angry. (This is the third woe.) Then in chapter 13 John saw the Beast rise to power - without a doubt, the man of sin now possessed by the devil. Chapter 13 then tells us what the two beasts will do during the last half of the week: create an image and force people to bow, or lose their heads, and create a mark; then force people to receive their mark or lose their heads. These events explain what will cause those days of great tribulation Jesus spoke of.

Then chapter 14 shows us events that must happen just before the days of GT begin. Finally, those days will begin late in chapter 14 or some short time after the abomination. Then chapter 15 introduces us to the angels with the plagues and bowls of wrath. God will use the bowls of His wrath to shorten those days of GT. Finally, the WEEK will end at the 7th bowl.

Chapters 17 and 18 show us the final destruction of the planet, as a great, world wide earthquake levels the mountains and the cities of the world.

Then chapter 19 is Christ's return to earth and to ARmageddon. I think John's book is very chronological.

No, it has a narrative sequence, and so ends with a grand display of Christ returning on a white horse, setting up his Kingdom. But the book is literally filled with visions within this grand narrative, and these visions depict, in a number of ways, the same 2nd Coming.

 

[RandyPNW]

One day soon The rapture will take place, the 6th and 7th seals will be opened so that the book can finally be opened, which will begin the 70th week of Daniel.

The 70th Week of Daniel is *not* mentioned in the book of Revelation because it was fulfilled at Jesus' death and with the end of animal sacrifices. As for the 7 Seals of Revlelation, they've already been opened so that John could show us what they are.

The first six trumpets begin the destruction ("hurt") on the earth, and the 7th trumpet will mark the midpoint of the week.

No, the 7th Trumpet brings in the Kingdom of God. That's the end of the age. That's where the vision of the 7 Seals and 7 Trumpets ends. But after that John has other visions, depicting similar things regarding the coming of Christ and his Kingdom.

It is at the 7th trumpet that Adam's 6000 year lease will expire. Suddenly he will find he has no more legal hold to anything so the kingdoms of the world are taken from him and given to Jesus—a property closing where ownership exchanges—done in the court room of heaven. Now that Satan has no more legal hold to earth, the war in heaven will take place and Satan will be cast down, VERY ANGRY. He immediately goes after those in Judea who will flee. That is what "fleeing from Satan" is all about.

Well, while that's an interesting theory, I see no biblical statement to that effect. Quite frankly, I try not to read too much into the Bible that is not actually said.

You are wise. The fleeing is not in any way connected to 70 AD. One would have to look VERY hard, like reading between the lines, to find any part of 70 AD in Revelation. That event was history when John wrote this book, according to tradition.

Well, there was in fact a "fleeing" in 66-70 AD. Jesus told his followers to flee when they see the Abomination of Desolation, which I believe was the Roman Army. They took off to Pella, where they survived this Roman incursion.

Yes, this has nothing to do with Rev 12 and the "fleeing" that takes place there. I just don't understand what that is?

It's probably there, staring me in the face. But I don't see it yet. The Bible has to say it, though, before I believe it.

 

[iamlamad]

Sorry, all I hear is your own voice. The Bible doesn't say anything explicitly referencing the AoD. Matching similar concepts is not identification.

Randy, it is OK of you don't believe in a future 70th week. I guess you will be surprised when it takes place. What is more important is that you are "looking for" His Coming as per Hebrews 9:28.

I wonder, must we have something "explicitly" written? What good would that do? John mentions the one thousands years time and again in Rev. 20 and still many can't believe it to be literal.

 

[iamlamad]

The 70th Week of Daniel is *not* mentioned in the book of Revelation because it was fulfilled at Jesus' death and with the end of animal sacrifices. As for the 7 Seals of Revlelation, they've already been opened so that John could show us what they are.

I agree, the 7 seals were opened IN A VISION. This does not mean they are physically opened today. Because the Father's timing is unknown to anyone else, John could not write then, explicitly, what seals were opened at the time he wrote. We can determine that will good study and exegesis. For example, none of the trumpet judgments have happened, so we can determine from that that the Book has not yet been opened. That means some seals remain still on the book.

If we examine the 6th seal, we can determine that it is future.
If we examine the 5th seal, we can determine that it is still ongoing - martyrs are still being killed.

Some people have come to believe, as I believe, that we are now between the 5th and 6th seals.

It is according to how YOU read the scriptures that you think the 70th week is history. A great many believers today read the scriptures differently. I believe you will see it come to pass soon in our future.

 

[iamlamad]

Well, while that's an interesting theory, I see no biblical statement to that effect. Quite frankly, I try not to read too much into the Bible that is not actually said.

According to the Talmud, Moses learned of the 6000 year lease while he was on the mountain. I found it on the web, written by ancient Jewish sages: God created in 6 days and rested on the 7th. Therefore man will rule the earth for 6000 years, then God will rule for the final one thousand years. It seems to be that Revelation 20 confirms this theory.

Next, I believe something must change at the future 7th Trumpet as the reason the kingdoms of the world are taken from Satan and given to Jesus Christ.

Finally, it seems that we are very close to 6000 years since Adam's fall.

 

[RandyPNW]

Randy, it is OK of you don't believe in a future 70th week. I guess you will be surprised when it takes place. What is more important is that you are "looking for" His Coming as per Hebrews 9:28.

I wonder, must we have something "explicitly" written? What good would that do? John mentions the one thousands years time and again in Rev. 20 and still many can't believe it to be literal.

I'll try to be as up front and honest, as well as friendly, as I can here. I've been studying this for decades, and have prayed earnestly about these things. I don't claim to be right all the time, but I do claim to have received some insight. If I'm wrong, at least I should be respected for the honest and diligent work I've put in, and for humbling myself before others better than me in the various disciplines.

So this isn't a horseshoe contest! I'm just sharing brother, and I fully endorse your suggestion that we hold to Heb 9.29. We are waiting for Christ to complete our Salvation in the coming resurrection!

So that being said, remember that I'm being "friendly" in sharing different positions than you hold to presently. I don't hold to a 70th Week of Dan 9 because almost nobody did in the Early Church. Nearly all of the Church Fathers held to the notion that the 70 Weeks ran consecutively, and was fulfilled at the Cross.

Only a couple of them stand out in my mind, and that's Irenaeus and Hippolytus, who were friends, and held to a future 70th Week. For some reason they apparently separated the "destruction of the city and the sanctuary" from the "Abomination of Desolation" in Dan 9.26-27. All the Church Fathers but these 2 and maybe 1 more held to the idea that the AoD had something to do with the Roman invasion around 70 AD.

So you hold to an extreme minority view with respect to Christian history. But you hold to the currently-popular futurist view, popularized by modern day Dispensationalists, begun by John N. Darby. I like some of his ideas, but some of them tried to make historically-fulfilled prophecies into future prophecies, in my opinion. A future 70th Week is one of his errors, in my opinion.

 

[RandyPNW]

I agree, the 7 seals were opened IN A VISION. This does not mean they are physically opened today.

I'd like to focus on this one point, because I think it is a huge reason people fail to understand the book of Revelation properly today. The symbols have an order and do not represent the order of the fulfillment of those symbols! For example, John saw 7 seals opened consecutively. But the fulfillment of what those 7 seals represent will not be fulfilled in the same order.

This is the problem with Revelation. Some think because John said he saw 1 vision, and then said, "next I saw another vision," that this means the next thing must take place chronologically. John was only saying he saw the next vision--not that this is a chronological sequence and the next thing must follow sequentially. If you can get a hold of this, it will revolutionize the way you see things. It did for me.

I could show you lots of examples, but I'd just like to throw that out there for now.

For example, none of the trumpet judgments have happened, so we can determine from that that the Book has not yet been opened. That means some seals remain still on the book.

Yes, that's the point I was trying to make, that the visions are one thing, and the fulfillments of those visions are another thing. They should not be confused or conflated. If John sees 7 seals opened, it does not mean that the things those seals represented have already been fulfilled!

Nor does it mean that they represent events that happen in sequential, chronological order. The order has more of a dramatic sequence than a chronological sequence. If there is an actual reference to the time of fulfillments, as opposed to the time John saw each vision, I will accept that as biblical evidence.

You see what I mean? You cannot take the order in which John saw the visions and then assume that to be a chronological sequence for the whole book of Revelation. It was never intended to work that way. The book is filled with many duplicating visions--visions that repeat the same scenarios presenting different facets and truths.

None of this means that the 7 seals are still sealed. They were opened in front of John in the vision. And the understanding of what they represent was given at the same time, because just as they were opened for John they are also opened for us.

If we examine the 6th seal, we can determine that it is future.
If we examine the 5th seal, we can determine that it is still ongoing - martyrs are still being killed.

Some people have come to believe, as I believe, that we are now between the 5th and 6th seals.

We are not between the visions John saw, because he saw them in the 1st century. The 5th and 6th seals do not represent a chronological sequence--only the sequence in which the visions were presented to John.

It is according to how YOU read the scriptures that you think the 70th week is history. A great many believers today read the scriptures differently. I believe you will see it come to pass soon in our future.

We'll see. But I think it best to recognize that if the 70th Week is disconnected from the previous 69 Weeks, it ceases to be the "70th Week." If the 70th Week stands alone at some future date, then it is only one Week, and not the "70th Week."

They must run in a direct sequence in order for there to be a "70th Week." That's why I changed my view many years ago, for this very reason. And then later I discovered that's what the Church Fathers believed, as well.

 

[RandyPNW]

According to the Talmud, Moses learned of the 6000 year lease while he was on the mountain. I found it on the web, written by ancient Jewish sages: God created in 6 days and rested on the 7th. Therefore man will rule the earth for 6000 years, then God will rule for the final one thousand years. It seems to be that Revelation 20 confirms this theory.

Next, I believe something must change at the future 7th Trumpet as the reason the kingdoms of the world are taken from Satan and given to Jesus Christ.

Finally, it seems that we are very close to 6000 years since Adam's fall.

That is called the Millennial Day Theory, and I think it has some credibility, though I wouldn't start making dates and predictions. I believe it was held to by Jews before Christ, and also held by some of the Church Fathers. It's rather amazing because they had no idea how this would look to us today? Some of them thought the 6000 years should run out long before now!

Today the Jews count the 6000 years as ending some time still into the distant future--maybe a couple of hundred years left to go before starting the 7th millennium. I don't personally think we have that long, nor do I think this Jewish calendar is even remotely accurate. But I do think there is valid reason to think we're close.

For more info, see HERE on the 6 Ages of the world, and HERE on Dating Creation

The thing I was referring to as an "interesting theory" was the part about Satan. You wrote:

It is at the 7th trumpet that Adam's 6000 year lease will expire. Suddenly he will find he has no more legal hold to anything so the kingdoms of the world are taken from him and given to Jesus—a property closing where ownership exchanges—done in the court room of heaven. Now that Satan has no more legal hold to earth, the war in heaven will take place and Satan will be cast down, VERY ANGRY. He immediately goes after those in Judea who will flee. That is what "fleeing from Satan" is all about.

The theory holds that Satan has "rights" to the world, the "Ransom Theory" of the Atonement. But for most of Christian history, Christ's Atonement has meant more that God is paying a "legal cost" that He Himself has set the parameters for.

He required that He Himself suffer the Sin in order to Forgive it. He really wasn't paying anything to Satan, although God did give Satan amount of latitude before his eventual imprisonment.

 

[iamlamad]

I'll try to be as up front and honest, as well as friendly, as I can here. I've been studying this for decades, and have prayed earnestly about these things. I don't claim to be right all the time, but I do claim to have received some insight. If I'm wrong, at least I should be respected for the honest and diligent work I've put in, and for humbling myself before others better than me in the various disciplines.

So this isn't a horseshoe contest! I'm just sharing brother, and I fully endorse your suggestion that we hold to Heb 9.29. We are waiting for Christ to complete our Salvation in the coming resurrection!

So that being said, remember that I'm being "friendly" in sharing different positions than you hold to presently. I don't hold to a 70th Week of Dan 9 because almost nobody did in the Early Church. Nearly all of the Church Fathers held to the notion that the 70 Weeks ran consecutively, and was fulfilled at the Cross.

Only a couple of them stand out in my mind, and that's Irenaeus and Hippolytus, who were friends, and held to a future 70th Week. For some reason they apparently separated the "destruction of the city and the sanctuary" from the "Abomination of Desolation" in Dan 9.26-27. All the Church Fathers but these 2 and maybe 1 more held to the idea that the AoD had something to do with the Roman invasion around 70 AD.

So you hold to an extreme minority view with respect to Christian history. But you hold to the currently-popular futurist view, popularized by modern day Dispensationalists, begun by John N. Darby. I like some of his ideas, but some of them tried to make historically-fulfilled prophecies into future prophecies, in my opinion. A future 70th Week is one of his errors, in my opinion.

Randy, I did not mean to belittle you at all. I respect your right to believe what you will. I too am friendly. I understand, you believe what you believe, and I believe what I believe, and there is a huge difference.

In my mind the only danger one might face with their end-time belief is if someone believes so strongly that they will see the Antichrist first, that they will not qualify for the Hebrews 9:28 verse and may be left behind. As look as someone can honestly say they are looking for His coming, and expecting Him any day, what else they believe will be correct after our resurrection.

I agree with you about the early church, as much as we can determine. We have very little to know what Paul's face to face believers knew and believed—that first generation of Gentile believers.

What I firmly believe is that over time God has revealed more and more of the truth of scripture, so as time moves forward, I believe the church will be closer and closer to God's intended meaning.

I know you don't believe it, but Brother, I was THERE. God spoke to ME. And He did it over and over for several months as He was teaching me His intent in some of the Revelation passages. He had great patience because I was VERY SLOW to learn.

I might add, when God pushed me into studying Revelation (I was not at first willing) when I decided to obey Him, I told Him I would come with an empty slate and anything I learned would be from Him. I believe He honored that. I read Daniel and Revelation over and over, countless times over about a three year period, absolutely determined not to form any opinions on any verses—I was just depositing it in my spirit so God could reveal it. I also prayed much in the Spirit.

I had previously leaned the secret of revelation knowledge: meditate on a passage consistently and pray much in tongues, and wait: soon God will reveal things. He has done this over and over in my life.

I congratulate you on your years of study. For many years of my Christian life I did not want to study Revelation. Now I think it is a most exciting book!

 

[RandyPNW]

Randy, I did not mean to belittle you at all. I respect your right to believe what you will. I too am friendly. I understand, you believe what you believe, and I believe what I believe, and there is a huge difference.

In my mind the only danger one might face with their end-time belief is if someone believes so strongly that they will see the Antichrist first, that they will not qualify for the Hebrews 9:28 verse and may be left behind. As look as someone can honestly say they are looking for His coming, and expecting Him any day, what else they believe will be correct after our resurrection.

Well here is the problem. I don't see where our waiting for Christ is the same as "expecting him any day?" That is called "Imminency Doctrine," and it isn't taught in the Scriptures. We are taught that Christ is coming soon, that his Kingdom is near, but we are not told that he can come on any day--nowhere is this taught.

And so, I don't believe it. In fact, Paul taught that Jesus can never be said to have come on any day unless Antichrist appears first. So we are told not so much to wait for Antichrist, but to expect that the world will be Antichristian in character until Christ returns from heaven. In that way we are to be looking for him, because keeping our eyes on the prize causes us to work to be found diligent and responsible, so that we will not fall under the judgment that is coming upon the world.

I know you don't believe it, but Brother, I was THERE. God spoke to ME. And He did it over and over for several months as He was teaching me His intent in some of the Revelation passages. He had great patience because I was VERY SLOW to learn.

I don't believe because God doesn't contradict the Scriptures He inspired to be written. The way God shows me truth and error is by giving me understanding of what Scriptures explicitly say. I don't read into them. I see the gist of what they're saying, and understand when the Holy Spirit makes something clear.

So no, I *know* you didn't hear God's voice if it violates what I do understand of the Scriptures. I don't know what you heard, but whatever it was, it wasn't God's voice. Sometimes things do seem to just fit together, and that seems to be confirmed over time. But in reality, lots of errors have come about in just this way. "Fitting together" is not always "God's voice!"

I might add, when God pushed me into studying Revelation (I was not at first willing) when I decided to obey Him, I told Him I would come with an empty slate and anything I learned would be from Him. I believe He honored that. I read Daniel and Revelation over and over, countless times over about a three year period, absolutely determined not to form any opinions on any verses—I was just depositing it in my spirit so God could reveal it. I also prayed much in the Spirit.

I share your great excitement over the Scriptures. I could give testimonials too about how the Lord has helped me in prophetic studies, but we have to confine our discussions not to what you think God said to you, but to the Scriptures. They don't lie, and I'm sure you agree? And I do appreciate your gracious spirit.

 

[iamlamad]

I share your great excitement over the Scriptures. I could give testimonials too about how the Lord has helped me in prophetic studies, but we have to confine our discussions not to what you think God said to you, but to the Scriptures. They don't lie, and I'm sure you agree? And I do appreciate your gracious spirit.

Randy, I don't "think" what God said to me, I remember what He said almost word for word. (It was years ago.) I will post His words for any who will believe them. I am certainly not embarrassed that God spoke to me. I have no bad feelings that you don't believe what He spoke. After all, we know there are many "voices" people can hear.

I agree, scriptures don't lie, but it is not always easy to determine the Author's intent. (It is easier if He tells us.) I find it somewhat amusing that two people can read the same passages of scripture and end up with two very different doctrines. However, that is reality. Finally, it is OK that we disagree. That will only last until we get our resurrection bodies!

 

[iamlamad]

Well here is the problem. I don't see where our waiting for Christ is the same as "expecting him any day?" That is called "Imminency Doctrine," and it isn't taught in the Scriptures. We are taught that Christ is coming soon, that his Kingdom is near, but we are not told that he can come on any day--nowhere is this taught.

It seems you need to see something written word for word before you will belief. I counted twelve times Jesus told us to "watch" for Him. Not to watch for the Antichrist Beast or the man of sin, but to watch for Jesus. None of the 12 tell us word for word that His coming in imminent, but they are certainly strong hints that He could come any time. I therefore disagree with you that immanency is not taught in scripture. It is just not taught word for word. As for me, I am expecting Him any time. So much so that I pray to be found worthy to escape what is coming.

 

[Marilyn C]

What's left of Bible Prophecy after one has treated Daniel and Revelation, as well as the Olivet Discourse? Is this all there is? So much of the Bible has Prophecy that was historically fulfilled. The Promises involved Israel becoming a Chosen Nation, and Messiah coming, followed by the birth and advance of the Church. But what of Future Prophecy? Are we left with just a lot of sensationalizing about the Apocalypse? Are we left with just Fear Mongering as our Prophetic Meessage to the world?

Many years agao I became interested in Bible Prophecy, just as many do today. I became fascinated with the focus on Future Prophecy, including much that we see in Dispensationalism--a focus on Israel's restoration, and the signs of the Last Generation. But then I converted to Postribulationism, due to a Bible Memorization program I began to engage in. 2 Thessalonians seemed to be explicitly teaching against what I had been trained, in Pretribulationism, to believe!

Eventually I began to study World History to see if there was any obvious relationship between it and the little bit of Bible Prophecy that I felt still was Future Prophecy. Amazingly, just a few passages in Daniel seemed to have anticipated it all. Daniel's focus was not on an escape from Antichrist, but rather, on resignation that Antichrist does come as an essential characteristic of world history.

But Daniel seemed to see it all in just a couple chapters, chapter 2 and chapter 7. It's like a "mustard seed" of truth created the entire Tree of History for me! Daniel's picture of a 4th Kingdom, which I saw as Rome, formed into 2 halves, the Eastern and Western Roman Empire, which evolved into the Europe we have today. This is portrayed as “2 legs” in Dan 2.

At the same time the Gospel was spreading throughout the world, as promised, the world formed the very pattern that Daniel predicted. There was the Slavs joining the Greek Orthodox communion in the East, and the Germans joining the Latin Catholic communion in the West. Both followed the pattern Daniel prescribed of a 2-legged 4th Kingdom on earth. Perhaps these are the “2 horns” of the “2nd Beast,” a kind of “false pope” in Rev 13?

If you will survey history on this evolution you may see, as I did, this gradual evolution towards what Daniel saw would eventually become a 10-nation Antichristian Empire, consisting of Eastern and Western European nations. It is pure speculation on my part right now, but it appears the historical trend towards dissolving empires into states is now operating in the old Soviet territory. And this is, I think, necessary, in order to prepare for the Antichrist Empire to come. 1st there must be 10 states, East and West, and then they must be sufficiently weakened for Antichrist to assume dictatorial control over them. Just a thought....

Hi Randy,

I see you and Iamlamad are having a good discussion. Nice to see people talking sensibly to each other. So, my contribution is something I have been taught many years ago by my teachers which opens up prophetic scripture more.

Dan. 2 & Dan. 7 are not the same kingdoms. The 4 kingdoms in Daniel 7 are at the same time, (although come up one at a time). The fourth one treads down the others. (Dan. 7: 7) That is not possible for Rome to tread down Babylon for that rulership had long been judged by God, as did the Medes and Persians. Also, after the fourth kingdom was judged by God the first three were given an extension of life, though not of authority. (Dan. 7: 12)

Once you begin to think about who those 4 great Federations could be by their emblems then a whole lot of scripture opens up to you.

regards, Marilyn.