How important is it to believe that God stopped giving visions of the future (and the present) to believers when the apostolic age came to an end?
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Prophecy and Cessationism
- Thread starter jwmealy
- Start date
It will take more than the soundbyte so many are weaned on and expect the same "milk" from others, to deal with this topic, and even then, very few will actually be objective in their examination of it, if it goes anywhere. So, the best to you, in your exploration of this matter on, of all places, an internet forum...
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Danoh,
I'm just taking the temperature of the forum. It's an unfamiliar culture to me and I'm hoping to see what the range of views is.
I'm just taking the temperature of the forum. It's an unfamiliar culture to me and I'm hoping to see what the range of views is.
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I don't think God has ceased giving visions to us, but I din't think it's the norm either. The pattern is clearly in the NT. As the apostles were confirmed by Christ through the miracles they did by the power of the Holy Spirit, we clearly see miracles ceasing.
It's very critical to understand that God always confirmed His prophets and apostles by signs and wonders...and that's why the true believers heeded their message.
Today signs and wonders are not the norm...they are the exception. It's always interesting when those who claim miracles virtually NEVER do what Jesus said in Matthew 10:7-10 when he sent out the apostles:
7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’
8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give.
9 Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts,
10 or a bag for your journey, or even two coats, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support.
That's how Jesus and the apostles worked it!
It's very critical to understand that God always confirmed His prophets and apostles by signs and wonders...and that's why the true believers heeded their message.
Today signs and wonders are not the norm...they are the exception. It's always interesting when those who claim miracles virtually NEVER do what Jesus said in Matthew 10:7-10 when he sent out the apostles:
7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’
8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give.
9 Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts,
10 or a bag for your journey, or even two coats, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support.
That's how Jesus and the apostles worked it!
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Ebedmelech,
I couldn't agree more with your final point. Trying to do miracles as a business is what Peter called out Simon Magus for (Acts 8:14-24).
I couldn't agree more with your final point. Trying to do miracles as a business is what Peter called out Simon Magus for (Acts 8:14-24).
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Interplanner
Newbie
The thing that needed proof by signs and wonders has been proven; Heb 2:4. It was the Gospel event.
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Interplanner,
If I said I had prayed to God in Jesus' name for a number of people with physical ailments over the years, and some of them had been instantly, and dramatically, healed in my presence, you'd say...
If I said I had prayed to God in Jesus' name for a number of people with physical ailments over the years, and some of them had been instantly, and dramatically, healed in my presence, you'd say...
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Interplanner,
If I said I had experienced, in the context of intentional fasting and prayer, a brief and apocalyptic-style vision, which was followed less than a week later by dramatic international events, which had unmistakably been referenced in the vision, you'd say...
If I said I had experienced, in the context of intentional fasting and prayer, a brief and apocalyptic-style vision, which was followed less than a week later by dramatic international events, which had unmistakably been referenced in the vision, you'd say...
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Jwmealy, I don't think that's the issue, because it's personal. Now think about what you've experienced, vs God telling His prophets to write it in a book and go tell people of it.
There's a HUGE difference in that because that would be prophetic vision that God is telling you to write...and if God were telling you to do that, He would confirm you with signs and wonders to justify you are His prophet.
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Interplanner
Newbie
But what needed to be proven right away in the early days of the NT church? And were the proofs successful?
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Interplanner,
You ask questions as though the answer were obvious and the implications of the answer that you have in mind were also obvious. But neither is the case.
First, what needed to be proven "right away"? The resurrection and messiahship of Jesus, and the reality and truth of the good news. The proofs of these things--which often but not always included signs and wonders--were not always successful, either among the Jews, or among the Gentiles. Even Jesus himself, who did signs and wonders on a regular basis, was not believed by all who encountered him and witnessed his works.
It's true that the Holy Spirit testified to the truth of the Gospel by doing works of healings and other dramatic and surprising things. But there is no biblical doctrine that says healings and prophecy are for the sole--and temporary--purpose of giving a kind of kick-start to the preaching of the Gospel. Wherever in the world people have not heard the Gospel before, the same situation applies as applied when Paul and others went out with the Gospel to people who had never heard it. The Holy Spirit desires, as always, to testify to the love of God and the truth of the Gospel.
And Paul talks in 1 Cor. 12 and 14 as though it is a normal aspect of Christian community worship and fellowship for the Holy Spirit to give out various gifts including prophecy and healing. It is a completely implausible reading of 1 Cor. 13, and an insult to people's intelligence, to suggest that when Paul speaks of the perfect coming, he's talking about the canon of Scripture. He's talking about the resurrection, not some fuzzy moment when all the writings of the NT have been committed to paper.
It is hazardous to hold, as doctrine, the idea that the Holy Spirit never gives out gifts of dramatic healings and prophecies and visions, just because it makes you nervous that someone might claim authority for false doctrine based on their own revelation or signs and wonders. Forming a doctrine that flies in the face of scripture itself, and that commits you to interpreting the gifts of the Holy Spirit as fraudulent, is a really bad idea.
That's not to say, by the way, that there are not a lot of bogus signs and wonders and prophecies out there. There surely are a lot of counterfeits. But it doesn't make you safe from error to throw a blanket interpretation of "fake" over every alleged manifestation of the Spirit. Things need to be discerned on a case-by-case basis with an open, unsentimental, un-cynical mind.
You ask questions as though the answer were obvious and the implications of the answer that you have in mind were also obvious. But neither is the case.
First, what needed to be proven "right away"? The resurrection and messiahship of Jesus, and the reality and truth of the good news. The proofs of these things--which often but not always included signs and wonders--were not always successful, either among the Jews, or among the Gentiles. Even Jesus himself, who did signs and wonders on a regular basis, was not believed by all who encountered him and witnessed his works.
It's true that the Holy Spirit testified to the truth of the Gospel by doing works of healings and other dramatic and surprising things. But there is no biblical doctrine that says healings and prophecy are for the sole--and temporary--purpose of giving a kind of kick-start to the preaching of the Gospel. Wherever in the world people have not heard the Gospel before, the same situation applies as applied when Paul and others went out with the Gospel to people who had never heard it. The Holy Spirit desires, as always, to testify to the love of God and the truth of the Gospel.
And Paul talks in 1 Cor. 12 and 14 as though it is a normal aspect of Christian community worship and fellowship for the Holy Spirit to give out various gifts including prophecy and healing. It is a completely implausible reading of 1 Cor. 13, and an insult to people's intelligence, to suggest that when Paul speaks of the perfect coming, he's talking about the canon of Scripture. He's talking about the resurrection, not some fuzzy moment when all the writings of the NT have been committed to paper.
It is hazardous to hold, as doctrine, the idea that the Holy Spirit never gives out gifts of dramatic healings and prophecies and visions, just because it makes you nervous that someone might claim authority for false doctrine based on their own revelation or signs and wonders. Forming a doctrine that flies in the face of scripture itself, and that commits you to interpreting the gifts of the Holy Spirit as fraudulent, is a really bad idea.
That's not to say, by the way, that there are not a lot of bogus signs and wonders and prophecies out there. There surely are a lot of counterfeits. But it doesn't make you safe from error to throw a blanket interpretation of "fake" over every alleged manifestation of the Spirit. Things need to be discerned on a case-by-case basis with an open, unsentimental, un-cynical mind.
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