Proof: You were only forgiven of your past sins!

BCsenior said:

Yes, this is a tough one.
My take on this is ...
There are 2 kinds of works:
(1) obeying Jesus' commandments is work!
(2) helping your fellow man is work!

Matthew 25 destroys my idea that (1) only is necessary.

Click to expand...

For me the resolution is the idea that many verses like Mt 25 are diagnostic in nature. That is works are an effect rather than a cause of one's salvation.

BCsenior said:

Butski, Jesus said the ones not doing good works
would be thrown into the lake of fire forever!

Click to expand...

That's only because those born of God do good works by nature and not in order to be saved. (1John 3:9,10)

Sins aren't weighed merely on an individual level, but part of a bigger systematic problem with the world's fall. It's this system that Jesus came to fix first and foremost. "We must be born from above" (John 3:3), not merely forgiven of specific things.. but renewed, to not be of this world, to have our relationship to God restored (rather than hiding like Adam and Eve did), with the work of Satan and his angels undone.

BCsenior said:

Doug, please read these verses carefully ...
Rev 21:7-8 and Rev 22:14-15.
These verses apply to absolutely EVERYONE!

Years ago, I approached the NT with NO biases,
and with NO previous doctrines or opinions!
Everyone needs to read and pray about the NT
with an OPEN mind and heart.

Click to expand...

21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Who is an overcomer, but he that believes in Jesus Christ. 1 John 5:4
Jesus overcame the world, and when we are in Him, we are overcomers as well.
Those who are born-again are not classified with the fearful and unbelieving etc.


22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

And what are His Commandments? But to believe on Jesus Christ.

BCsenior said:

Salvation is by faith plus works (James).

The works is co-operation with the Holy Spirit.

"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12).

Click to expand...

You really should learn not to take verses out of context.
The rest of that verse says, "For it is God wis good pleasure.
God lives inside of us. Anything we do should be done with fear and trembling.
If your salvation is dependent on you doing good works, you don't have a one in a trillion chance of getting eternal life.

BCsenior said:

At the moment you were born-again … you were only forgiven of the sins you had committed up to that point in time!

“For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his OLD sins. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for IF you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”
(2 Peter 1:9-11, NKJV)
“OLD sins” is also in the KJV, RSV, NLT, AMP

“having forgotten his purification from his FORMER sins.”
(2 Peter 1:9, NASB) “FORMER sins” is also in the ESV

“forgetting that they have been cleansed from their PAST sins.” (2 Peter 1:9, NIV) “PAST sins” is also in the HCSB

Now for some confirming NT passages …

Paul wrote this to the Corinthian church concerning his words of rebuke in 1 Corinthians that he had sent to them concerning some particular sins. They really needed to be sorrowful and repent.
“… the pain (from his rebuke) caused you to repent and change your ways. It was the kind of sorrow God wants His people to have, so you were not harmed by us in any way. For the kind of sorrow God wants us to experience leads us away from sin and results in salvation. … worldly sorrow, which lacks repentance, results in spiritual (eternal) death.” (2 Corinthians 7:8-10, NLT)

“Yes, I am afraid that when I come again, God will humble me in your presence. And I will be grieved because many of you have not given up your old sins. You have not repented of your impurity, sexual immorality, and eagerness for lustful pleasure.”
(2 Corinthians 12:21, NLT)

Peter is warning believers about God’s destruction of all ungodly and unholy people:
“Then he used the water to destroy the ancient (ungodly) world … the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed. …
He is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed (perish spiritually), but (he) wants everyone to repent. … what holy and godly lives you should live … (you) make every effort to be found living peaceful lives that are pure and blameless in his sight. … I am warning you ahead of time … Be on guard so that you will not be carried away by the errors …”
(2 Peter 3:6-17, NLT)

John gives the condition for the Lord to forgive believers’ present sins:
“But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness (unrighteousness).” (1 John 1:9, NLT)
“This is an extremely important verse … all men need to be repeatedly purified from all unrighteousness – from all their sins … We must confess our sins and turn from them … We must also confess them with our actions … (John) is talking here about repentance … we must hate our sins and turn from them. This is true repentance.”
(The Applied New Testament Commentary; Dr. Thomas Hale)

2 verses later, John reminds believers to ask Jesus to plead our case before the Father:
“My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly right-
eous.” (1 John 2:1, NLT)

Believers are responsible for repenting of their sins after they are born-again! They have been given the Holy Spirit, a totally new nature, and God’s word. So, they have been enabled to be victorious overcomers over sin, the world, and the devil. They have no excuse for failing to do this.

Click to expand...

What you are saying is true. Baptism washes away past sins. The new testament is clear on that. We are told at 1 John 5:16 not even to pray for a person who commits a mortal sin after baptism.

In the church during the apostolic age, a single mortal sin was viewed as reason for condemnation. It was only around 200 AD or so that Calixtus I claimed for the church the authority to forgive adultery and other mortal sins.

It caused a minor schism in the church based on the readings of Hebrews 10:26-29.

Some time later during the last Roman persecutions between 250 and 300 AD or so, it was decided that the Church could even pardon the sin of apostasy, directly contrary to Hebrews 6:4-6.

BCsenior said:

Jesus said 4 times in John 14 ...
"Those who love me will obey (keep)
My commandments (plural)."

And there are many of them in the gospels.
It's all about having the right and acceptable
heart attitude ... trying and repenting when you slip.

Click to expand...

Can I take it you would not invite friends and family home for a meal, but rather the poor, lame, blind and beggars so you may receive your reward in Heaven?
If you ever fasted, you would not even drop hints to anyone you were fasting?
If someone stole something of yours, you would give them more besides what they stole, with nothing but love in your heart for them?
You love your enemies, those who may be unkind to you or persecute you?
You leap for joy if you are persecuted?

BCsenior said:

In Romans, Paul was writing to believers in Rome.
He wrote:
If you are a slave to sin, you get eternal death.
If you are a slave to obedience, you get righteousness.
(Romans 6:16)

P.S. If you slip up, thereby failing to be righteous,
you can always confess/repent of your sin,
and the Lord will cleanse you from all unrighteousness
(1 John 1:9) via Jesus' precious blood.
John was writing to believers, right?

Click to expand...

But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. Rom6:17&18


We come to Christ as slaves to sin/sin dominates our lives, and we are called to cross over into being slaves of righteousness, leading to holiness, but this crossing over from one state to the other takes time.


But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a law-breaker. Gal2:17&18


In the above Paul is speaking of a justification that is not instantaneous, it is one which takes time. You are immediately justified at the point of conversion by faith in Christ, that places you in a justified state, so what justification is Paul speaking of in the above? He is speaking of a new convert, in respect of crossing over, from being a slave of sin when they come to Christ, into a slave of righteousness leading to holiness. They seek this justification, not by works of the law/observing the law/striving not to commit sin, but by faith in Christ. They trust in Christ to cross over from one state to the other. This is not a licence to sit back on your backside and do nothing of course, for the new convert has been born again.

Paul states that while this crossing over from one state to the other is taking place, the convert will be found to be a sinner, or it is evident they are a sinner. Why is this? Because some sin you can immediately cease at the point of conversion, for it has not tied itself so tightly around you, that you are its slave, however, other sin you may have been a slave to for years, if not decades, and this sin can take longer to see defeated.

Paul then asks the question: Does Christ promote sin? Why would he ask that? Imagine a new convert, who is crossing over from one state to the other. He joins a church, and heartily joins in the service. What would someone who did not understand the message think? ‘’’If this person is a Christian Christ must promote sin, for here he is joining us in worship with glaring sin in his life’’’ However, what the person with such thoughts fails to understand is, the new convert hates his sin, for he has been born again, the last thing he wants is it to stay there, but he is still entitled to rejoice in what Christ has done for him, despite his imperfections or he must go around in sackcloth and ashes until he is as pure as the driven snow.

Immediately after Paul asks the question he answers it: ‘’Absolutely not, if I rebuild what I destroyed I prove I am a lawbreaker(NIV 1984 edition) What has Paul sought so hard to destroy? Righteousness of obeying the law. Therefore, if he returned to seeking such justification by obeying the law/striving not to commit sin, he would fail, and simply prove he was a lawbreaker/sinner.


Of course, if Jesus only died for past sins, the text could not be followed.

BCsenior said:

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
What do you think of 2 Peter 1:9?

Click to expand...

You could have lived the most sordid of lives, and been rescued from the most dire of circumstances when you were made alive with Christ, this is what the verse is referring to, that's the context. If you do not seek to grow in the faith, you have forgotten the sins you were forgiven of when you got saved.


What do you think of Paul's numerous references to not being under the law. Here's one:

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.


21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith inh]'>[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe Rom3:20-22

Sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4

Bearing in mind the definition of sin, Rom 3:20 could be written as:
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by not committing sin, rather through the law we become conscious of our sin

Your thoughts?

BCsenior said:

At the moment you were born-again … you were only forgiven of the sins you had committed up to that point in time!

“For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his OLD sins. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for IF you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”
(2 Peter 1:9-11, NKJV)
“OLD sins” is also in the KJV, RSV, NLT, AMP

“having forgotten his purification from his FORMER sins.”
(2 Peter 1:9, NASB) “FORMER sins” is also in the ESV

“forgetting that they have been cleansed from their PAST sins.” (2 Peter 1:9, NIV) “PAST sins” is also in the HCSB

Now for some confirming NT passages …

Paul wrote this to the Corinthian church concerning his words of rebuke in 1 Corinthians that he had sent to them concerning some particular sins. They really needed to be sorrowful and repent.
“… the pain (from his rebuke) caused you to repent and change your ways. It was the kind of sorrow God wants His people to have, so you were not harmed by us in any way. For the kind of sorrow God wants us to experience leads us away from sin and results in salvation. … worldly sorrow, which lacks repentance, results in spiritual (eternal) death.” (2 Corinthians 7:8-10, NLT)

“Yes, I am afraid that when I come again, God will humble me in your presence. And I will be grieved because many of you have not given up your old sins. You have not repented of your impurity, sexual immorality, and eagerness for lustful pleasure.”
(2 Corinthians 12:21, NLT)

Peter is warning believers about God’s destruction of all ungodly and unholy people:
“Then he used the water to destroy the ancient (ungodly) world … the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed. …
He is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed (perish spiritually), but (he) wants everyone to repent. … what holy and godly lives you should live … (you) make every effort to be found living peaceful lives that are pure and blameless in his sight. … I am warning you ahead of time … Be on guard so that you will not be carried away by the errors …”
(2 Peter 3:6-17, NLT)

John gives the condition for the Lord to forgive believers’ present sins:
“But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness (unrighteousness).” (1 John 1:9, NLT)
“This is an extremely important verse … all men need to be repeatedly purified from all unrighteousness – from all their sins … We must confess our sins and turn from them … We must also confess them with our actions … (John) is talking here about repentance … we must hate our sins and turn from them. This is true repentance.”
(The Applied New Testament Commentary; Dr. Thomas Hale)

2 verses later, John reminds believers to ask Jesus to plead our case before the Father:
“My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly right-
eous.” (1 John 2:1, NLT)

Believers are responsible for repenting of their sins after they are born-again! They have been given the Holy Spirit, a totally new nature, and God’s word. So, they have been enabled to be victorious overcomers over sin, the world, and the devil. They have no excuse for failing to do this.

Click to expand...

But everyone still fails in sin. Do you never sin?

BCsenior said:

At the moment you were born-again … you were only forgiven of the sins you had committed up to that point in time!

“For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his OLD sins. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for IF you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”
(2 Peter 1:9-11, NKJV)
“OLD sins” is also in the KJV, RSV, NLT, AMP

“having forgotten his purification from his FORMER sins.”
(2 Peter 1:9, NASB) “FORMER sins” is also in the ESV

“forgetting that they have been cleansed from their PAST sins.” (2 Peter 1:9, NIV) “PAST sins” is also in the HCSB

Now for some confirming NT passages …

Paul wrote this to the Corinthian church concerning his words of rebuke in 1 Corinthians that he had sent to them concerning some particular sins. They really needed to be sorrowful and repent.
“… the pain (from his rebuke) caused you to repent and change your ways. It was the kind of sorrow God wants His people to have, so you were not harmed by us in any way. For the kind of sorrow God wants us to experience leads us away from sin and results in salvation. … worldly sorrow, which lacks repentance, results in spiritual (eternal) death.” (2 Corinthians 7:8-10, NLT)

“Yes, I am afraid that when I come again, God will humble me in your presence. And I will be grieved because many of you have not given up your old sins. You have not repented of your impurity, sexual immorality, and eagerness for lustful pleasure.”
(2 Corinthians 12:21, NLT)

Peter is warning believers about God’s destruction of all ungodly and unholy people:
“Then he used the water to destroy the ancient (ungodly) world … the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed. …
He is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed (perish spiritually), but (he) wants everyone to repent. … what holy and godly lives you should live … (you) make every effort to be found living peaceful lives that are pure and blameless in his sight. … I am warning you ahead of time … Be on guard so that you will not be carried away by the errors …”
(2 Peter 3:6-17, NLT)

John gives the condition for the Lord to forgive believers’ present sins:
“But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness (unrighteousness).” (1 John 1:9, NLT)
“This is an extremely important verse … all men need to be repeatedly purified from all unrighteousness – from all their sins … We must confess our sins and turn from them … We must also confess them with our actions … (John) is talking here about repentance … we must hate our sins and turn from them. This is true repentance.”
(The Applied New Testament Commentary; Dr. Thomas Hale)

2 verses later, John reminds believers to ask Jesus to plead our case before the Father:
“My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly right-
eous.” (1 John 2:1, NLT)

Believers are responsible for repenting of their sins after they are born-again! They have been given the Holy Spirit, a totally new nature, and God’s word. So, they have been enabled to be victorious overcomers over sin, the world, and the devil. They have no excuse for failing to do this.

Click to expand...

1 John 1:9 doesn’t imply that unconfessed sins will not be forgiven. It simply says confessed sins will be forgiven. Now I’m not saying we shouldn’t confess our sins but it is most likely that many Christians will die without having the ability to confess beforehand and they might have unconfessed sins at the time of their death. I don’t see anything saying those sins will not be forgiven if they abide in Christ.

BCsenior said:

Yes, the NT warns us in many verses that
salvation is a process ... by which we prove
that we are worthy to be invited into heaven.
None of these spiritual Truths are taught in most churches.
Can you figure out why?

4 times in John 14 alone, Jesus says (I'm paraphrasing):
"Those who love Me obey My commandments."
And I ask you ...
Is anyone invited into heaven who does not love Jesus?
Going one step further ...
Is anyone invited into heaven who does not obey (keep)
Jesus' commandments?

Click to expand...

Who has flawlessly kept Jesus’ commandments? Jesus said those who love Me keep my commandments but He doesn’t say if someone stumbles they will be condemned to the lake of fire. I recently took a poll here on CF asking who doesn’t still sin after becoming a Christian and 2 out of 65 Christians here on CF said they never sin after becoming a Christian. Poll as a born again Christian do you still sin

bcbsr said:

OK, Salvation by works. I get it.

Click to expand...

Not necessarily friend. It is salvation by faith which produces works. James 2:14-26 John 15:1-10 Matthew 25:31-46 give evidence that a faith that does not produce works is not a saving faith.