Proof that Trump's an Idiot

[pakicetus]

I'm a pretty conservative individual who thinks Trump is a moron. I have friends who honestly think he would be a great President. I'm thinking of getting rid of those friends.

How do you feel about the Republican Party in general? I'm not sure how a sane and intelligent person can support them. I know it happens, it's just confusing.

 

[Black Dog]

They mix apples and oranges, actually, creating a cute shell game.

The truth ... which you can confirm in your article ... seems to be that Donald received $40 million from his father in the mid-70's and quickly grew that to 200 million by 1982. That's a five-fold increase and well above what could have been achieved with index funds during the dark years of the Jimmy Carter economy.

From that $200 million some have claimed that Trump could have done as well by using index funds to get to his current net worth. Doing that though discounts the 5x increase in wealth Donald had already achieved from the initial $40 million a few years earlier.

And in 1974 I'm sure Donald's dad, and his dad's buddies were helping Donald get started. According to the article, Donald has performed below the index. If you consider Donald made (and has bragged about this) a lot of money by sucking the money out of various ventures, declaring bankruptcy, and essentially stealing from people who earned the money. He also has made a lot of money from selling his name. Take that money out, and Donald has done particularly poorly as a businessman. If he gets to be POTUS we can expect him to borrow trillions from China, then declare bankruptcy, as well as sell the name "USA" to any crackpot dictator who needs a Western country for a coalition. These are the things he is expert at.

Do you agree that sucking the money out of a venture, and then declaring bankruptcy, all to avoid paying the people who earned the money, is essentially stealing?

 

[NightHawkeye]

And in 1974 I'm sure Donald's dad, and his dad's buddies were helping Donald get started. According to the article, Donald has performed below the index.

Allow me to be blunt. The whole article is a LIE.

The Standard and Poor's was at 96 in 1974 when Donald Trump received his $40 million. The index has increased twenty times since 1974 to about 2009 today. Do the math for yourself. Twenty times 40 million is 800 million.

Since Donald Trump's worth is 10 billion or so, he has done more than ten times better than he would have with an S&P index fund. It's not complicated.

Again, do the math for yourself. I'll even give you a head start: http://www.multpl.com/s-p-500-historical-prices/table/by-year

 

[crjmurray]

How do you feel about the Republican Party in general? I'm not sure how a sane and intelligent person can support them. I know it happens, it's just confusing.

The current religious right? I don't support them. Being conservative does not mean I agree with the religious warhawk nutcases that currently reside in the Republican party.

 

[Black Dog]

Allow me to be blunt. The whole article is a LIE.

The Standard and Poor's was at 96 in 1974 when Donald Trump received his $40 million. The index has increased twenty times since 1974 to about 2009 today. Do the math for yourself. Twenty times 40 million is 800 million.

Since Donald Trump's worth is 10 billion or so, he has done more than ten times better than he would have with an S&P index fund. It's not complicated.

Again, do the math for yourself. I'll even give you a head start: http://www.multpl.com/s-p-500-historical-prices/table/by-year

Ah, I see the problem. You believed The Donald when he said he is worth 10 billion. Sadly, that appears to be more of The Donald's need to appear a smart businessman, which one can't blame him for, when the facts show he is a poor businessman.

Here is Bloomberg estimating The Donald's wealth. Far far less than 10 billion.

Also, as stated in the article, that number reflect reinvesting his dividends, hence the difference between the growth in the S&P index and what The Donald would have made. It's like compound interest, why can invest very little per month starting at age 20, and have a very sizable retirement fund at 65.

 

[NightHawkeye]

Ah, I see the problem. You believed The Donald when he said he is worth 10 billion. Sadly, that appears to be more of The Donald's need to appear a smart businessman, which one can't blame him for, when the facts show he is a poor businessman.

Here is Bloomberg estimating The Donald's wealth. Far far less than 10 billion.

Not sure why you keep getting it wrong.

Doesn't matter which estimate of The Donald's worth you use, they're all considerably more than the S&P index would have provided. Just a FACT. Again, consider doing the math yourself. It's not that complicated.

 

[Black Dog]

ROTFL ... lousy deflection.

Doesn't matter which estimate of The Donald's worth you use, they're all considerably more than the S&P index would have provided. Just a FACT. Deal with it and stop making accusations against me.

Huh? I haven't made any accusations against you. What did I say to make you think that?

Anyways, the difference in the two numbers is because of compound interest. If you're not sure what that is, I suggest looking up recommended plans for retirement. They are almost always based on compound interest. As stated in the article, the dividends are considered to be reinvested, so even though the S&P has only gone up 20 times, by reinvesting The Donald would have made considerably more if he had just invested in the stock market. So, the actual facts are, when you take away profits The Donald made declaring bankruptcy, and selling his name, he is actually a poor businessman who has demonstrably done worse than the average guy. That's a sad statement about his true acumen. But like I said, if you think the POTUS can better the USA by borrowing trillions, then declaring bankruptcy, and selling the name "USA" to any tinpot dictator with the funds, then The Donald is one to vote for because these are his true areas of expertise..

And how is showing Bloomberg's estimation that The Donald is severely overestimating his wealth a deflection? Surely you trust independent analysis more than bias analysis?

 

[NightHawkeye]

Huh? I haven't made any accusations against you. What did I say to make you think that?

Anyways, the difference in the two numbers is because of compound interest. If you're not sure what that is, I suggest looking up recommended plans for retirement. They are almost always based on compound interest. As stated in the article, the dividends are considered to be reinvested, so even though the S&P has only gone up 20 times, by reinvesting The Donald would have made considerably more if he had just invested in the stock market. So, the actual facts are, when you take away profits The Donald made declaring bankruptcy, and selling his name, he is actually a poor businessman who has demonstrably done worse than the average guy. That's a sad statement about his true acumen. But like I said, if you think the POTUS can better the USA by borrowing trillions, then declaring bankruptcy, and selling the name "USA" to any tinpot dictator with the funds, then The Donald is one to vote for.

And how is showing Bloomberg's estimation that The Donald is severely overestimating his wealth a deflection? Surely you trust independent analysis more than bias analysis?

Let's be clear.

Your reference is Mother Jones. It's light-hearted journalism. As to the Donald's wealth, here's exactly what your reference said: Donald Trump Has Lost Between $1 and $6 Billion Over His Business Career | Mother Jones

Over at National Journal, Shirish Dáte estimates that if Trump had put that money into an index fund of S&P 500 stocks, it would be worth about $3 billion today.​

Now, The Donald filed paperwork claiming his net worth at $10 billion. Forbes currently estimates his net worth at $4.5 million. He claims it's $10 million. By all accounts the Donald has done better than the S&P index funds.

If he'd taken the $200 million he was reportedly worth in 1982 and done the same, he'd be worth $8 billion.

You mean after he'd already increased his net worth from $40 million to $200 million in a few short years. That's kinda cherry picking a data point if ever there was one.

Also, about that S&P500 index he should have invested in ... it didn't happen until after 1974.
S&P 500: A Great 2nd Place Index Fund | Forbes

The S&P 500 has the distinction of being the first index to be tracked by a publicly available index fund. The Vanguard 500 Index Fund (ticker: VFINX) began operations on August 31, 1976.​

Like a lot of other stock market picks which look wonderful in hindsight, the S&P500 just happens to be the index which is in vogue now. If the Donald had managed to invest his entire net worth in S&P500 index in 1976 when it opened he'd have been an oracle as well ... for knowing which of the myriad of stock market indexes was going to do well. It could have been the Dow100 or the Dow30 or one of the lesser known indexes.

Regardless, despite the misleading Mother Jones headline, the Donald has clearly outperformed even the currently favored S&P500.

 

[Black Dog]

Let's be clear.

Your reference is Mother Jones. It's light-hearted journalism. As to the Donald's wealth, here's exactly what your reference said: Donald Trump Has Lost Between $1 and $6 Billion Over His Business Career | Mother Jones

Over at National Journal, Shirish Dáte estimates that if Trump had put that money into an index fund of S&P 500 stocks, it would be worth about $3 billion today.​

Now, The Donald filed paperwork claiming his net worth at $10 billion. Forbes currently estimates his net worth at $4.5 million. He claims it's $10 million. By all accounts the Donald has done better than the S&P index funds.


You mean after he'd already increased his net worth from $40 million to $200 million in a few short years. That's kinda cherry picking a data point if ever there was one.

Also, about that S&P500 index he should have invested in ... it didn't happen until after 1974.
S&P 500: A Great 2nd Place Index Fund | Forbes

The S&P 500 has the distinction of being the first index to be tracked by a publicly available index fund. The Vanguard 500 Index Fund (ticker: VFINX) began operations on August 31, 1976.​

Like a lot of other stock market picks which look wonderful in hindsight, the S&P500 just happens to be the index which is in vogue now. If the Donald had managed to invest his entire net worth in S&P500 index in 1976 when it opened he'd have been an oracle as well ... for knowing which of the myriad of stock market indexes was going to do well. It could have been the Dow100 or the Dow30 or one of the lesser known indexes.

Regardless, despite the misleading Mother Jones headline, the Donald has clearly outperformed even the currently favored S&P500.

What difference does it make who did the math? It was done correctly. If The Donald had invested his money in the stock market, he would have as much money as he has today. In other words The Donald has done at best average. Take away the money (he bragged about making) by declaring bankruptcy and essentially stealing from the people who earned the money, take away the money he made selling is name via celebrity, and take away the money he made on reality tv, as a businessman The Donald has done well below average, The Donald is demonstrably and provably a poor businessman.

By the way, you never answered my question about The Donald declaring bankruptcy. Do you think it was ethical of The Donald to suck millions and millions out of various enterprises, and then declare bankruptcy to avoid paying the people who had earned the money? The Donald has done this on numerous occasions, and also bragged about this on multiple occasions.

 

[NightHawkeye]

What difference does it make who did the math? It was done correctly. If The Donald had invested his money in the stock market, he would have as much money as he has today.

LOL ... that's the logic of every fool who's lost his socks in the stock market.

Every one who's ever made money in the stock market has always looked back and realized how much more he could have made ... if he'd only done a few things differently.

 

[Black Dog]

LOL ... that's the logic of every fool who's lost his socks in the stock market.

Every one who's ever made money in the stock market has always looked back and realized how much more he could have made ... if he'd only done a few things differently.

You're grasping at straws now. I showed factually that Trump performed below the stock market average as a businessman. That is unimpressive to say the least, as we would expect a good businessman to outperform the stock market average.

You still haven't answered my question: Do you think it was ethical of Trump to suck millions out of various businesses, then declare bankruptcy so he didn't have to pay the people who had earned the money? He has bragged about doing this numerous times.

 

[NightHawkeye]

You're grasping at straws now. I showed factually that Trump performed below the stock market average as a businessman.

Incorrect ... though I have no doubt you would like to believe that to be the case.

As I said before, the S&P500 is not an average of the stock market. Not even close. The S&P500 regularly adds and removes specific stocks at an alarming rate. It is but one of many ways in which market performance is characterized. It also happens to be a measure which looks good over the long term.

That is unimpressive to say the least, as we would expect a good businessman to outperform the stock market average.

He has. Considerably.

You still haven't answered my question: Do you think it was ethical of Trump to suck millions out of various businesses, then declare bankruptcy so he didn't have to pay the people who had earned the money? He has bragged about doing this numerous times.

Businesses go belly up from time to time ... for various reasons. Sometimes the best course of action is putting the business out of its misery.

Although some robber barons have indeed "sucked" money out of corporations in order to declare bankruptcy, that doesn't seem to be the case for Trump. As he pointed out for Atlantic City, all the casinos there went bankrupt. It wasn't a problem unique to his business. The overall economic environment there collapsed.

 

[cow451]

Intelligence doesn't seem to be a prerequisite. Barack Obama thought there were 57 states and acknowledged his Muslim faith. He still got elected.

It's his positions which count ... usually focusing on the economy.

What's happening in the CF universe? Trump losing idiocy poll.

 

[ScottA]

What's happening in the CF universe? Trump losing idiocy poll.

Projection?

 

[cow451]

Projection?

Flunked Psychology 101, I see. Or, you simply failed to note the thread has a poll.

 

[bhsmte]

Projection?

Nope.

It appears he is simply commenting on the reality of the poll numbers.

 

[ScottA]

Flunked Psychology 101, I see. Or, you simply failed to note the thread has a poll.

One word answers don't click for everyone. No, that's just my explanation of the poll.