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Proof texting

Jimlarmore

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Recently, I have been studying some work done by a Dr. Cottrell on the IJ and one of the things he brings out is that adventist "proof text" a lot with the Bible instead of using the historist/cultural approach to finding the real meaning of what the Bible is telling us. I'm not sure this is actually all that accurate. Certainly it may go on but he seems to intimate we do it all the time.

First off let's look at what proof texting actually is.

Prooftexting is the practice of using decontextualised quotations from a
document (often, but not always, a book of the Bible) to establish a proposition ...
en.wikipedia.org

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prooftext

Here again we are dealing with context in the Bible. I remember studying the Bible for years and always making sure that what I was gleening out of a belief was not taken out of context and I think I have become faily good at it over the years. The reason I did this was because I had seen a lot of this in other denominations. Some primary examples are ones like the vision of Peter making all meats clean now, or the verses in Col 2 to say that the ten commandments were now nailed to the cross of Christ.

Recently, I have been accused of performing eisegesis on some texts which is a fancy term for taking something out of context and ascribing your own interpretation to what you think it should say. I don't want to get into that per se' at this point but I think in a way this thread is tied into that concept.

Anyway, Dr. Cottrell's accusation for us doing a lot of proof texting is based on his in depth research of the Bible and it's original language. His contention is that for us to really understand the Bible we must take a couple of things into consideration. Those being primarily :

1. History of the ancients at that time and how that impacts the context of the study:

2. Syntax of the ancient language: how one word may modify or change the traditional interpretation many have grown to accept.

This is all good and fine and I would be the first to agree that there has to some extent been things lost in translation from the original language to english in several places. That's why we study. However, I disagree that we have to do this in all cases of dispute on doctrine or truths. For one very few of us have ph.d's in ancient hebrew or greek. Also, the gospels are full of places where the author makes mention of Christ's fulfillment of some prophecy in the old testament. Usually, these are one liners taken out of context to great degree. The gospel writers were master's at "proof texting" for sure.

Conclusion: There is a lot to be said concerning context. In some instances the context can contribute to the text/s but that to me is not always required. Unless the contextual narrative specifically invalidates the statement then the truth may remain. As I have said before some text's stand on their own for truth's sake and clarity, i.e. they are "declarative" in nature. Just as the example of the two having a conversation and right in the middle of it one saying something that is totally off the subject, like you have beautiful eyes. The fact that eyes were not part of the afforementioned conversation does not lessen the truth of this declarative statement.

I do not believe we as a church are guilty of "proof texting" to form our doctrines or beliefs.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 

StormyOne

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Are you saying because you try not to use the "proof-text" method that the church did not? A prime example right now of proof-texting is the current threads on perfection using the text "be ye perfect as you father in heaven is perfect."

The context of what Jesus said has been ignored in order to support the belief that Jesus is saying be perfect..... The text which says "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" is also used out of context....

I see what you are saying Jim, however your proof that the church did not use the proof-text method to formulate some of its doctrines is tenuous....
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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Recently, I have been accused of performing eisegesis on some texts which is a fancy term for taking something out of context and ascribing your own interpretation to what you think it should say. I don't want to get into that per se' at this point but I think in a way this thread is tied into that concept.
Yes it is very much tied into the other discussion because proof texting is a form of eisegesis. In the case of the IJ it is based upon completely removing the context of the verse Dan 8:14 and inserting a totally different idea proof texted from Revelation e.g. the hour of his judgment has come. Which was a proof text formerly used by the Millerites to describe the second coming. When it failed a new application was sought to fulfill the proof text.

So Cottrell is very correct in pointing out the way we as Adventists have used proof texting methods.
 
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A

AndrewK788

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Yes it is very much tied into the other discussion because proof texting is a form of eisegesis. In the case of the IJ it is based upon completely removing the context of the verse Dan 8:14 and inserting a totally different idea proof texted from Revelation e.g. the hour of his judgment has come. Which was a proof text formerly used by the Millerites to describe the second coming. When it failed a new application was sought to fulfill the proof text.

So Cottrell is very correct in pointing out the way we as Adventists have used proof texting methods.

I think it's safe to say that every individual and every Christian denomination has used proof texting at least some time during their existence. It's easy to fall into it. Frankly, I think those who argue that SDAs don't or that they themselves never have are being naive.
 
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djconklin

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A prime example right now of proof-texting is the current threads on perfection using the text "be ye perfect as you father in heaven is perfect."

Where's the evidence that the text is being "proof-texted" in an illegitimate manner? How about the text "cease to do evil, learn to do good"? Is that proof-texting?

Since the Bible isn't written like a theology book isn't it true that virtually all beliefs have to be "proof-texted"? Or, isn't it more likely to be true that only those beliefs are the one's we object to as "proof-texted"?

Isn't it better to have some texts to support a belief than none?
 
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djconklin

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Which was a proof text formerly used by the Millerites to describe the second coming. When it failed a new application was sought to fulfill the proof text.

So Cottrell is very correct in pointing out the way we as Adventists have used proof texting methods.

Note the bolded. Apples and oranges may both be fruit but they are not the same.
 
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StormyOne

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Where's the evidence that the text is being "proof-texted" in an illegitimate manner? How about the text "cease to do evil, learn to do good"? Is that proof-texting?

Since the Bible isn't written like a theology book isn't it true that virtually all beliefs have to be "proof-texted"? Or, isn't it more likely to be true that only those beliefs are the one's we object to as "proof-texted"?

Isn't it better to have some texts to support a belief than none?
whatever works for you DJ.....
 
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RC_NewProtestants

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Note the bolded. Apples and oranges may both be fruit but they are not the same.
Normally I just ignore DJ's strange statements but this one I just had to see if he had some real thought behind, so I will ask him to explain his note.

Quote:
Which was a proof text formerly used by the Millerites to describe the second coming. When it failed a new application was sought to fulfill the proof text.

So Cottrell is very correct in pointing out the way we as Adventists have used proof texting methods.
Note the bolded. Apples and oranges may both be fruit but they are not the same.

If I must guess, for some reason proof texts used by Millerites is different from proof texts used by Adventists. Of course the Millerties gave up their proof text and the application they applied for it when the second coming did not occur...after a few other dates were tried. The Adventists (who were former Millerites) took the date and text and applied it to the Investigative Judgment. So how is it that the people using proof texts somehow becomes apples and oranges?
 
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PROPHECYKID

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The point is that you will obviously proof text after you have understood what the bible is saying. You take your time and let the bible explain itself. But when you have to proove your point to someone you will obviously proof text
 
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NightEternal

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Of COURSE proof-texting is rampant in Adventism. It is the very foundational basis for every prophecy seminar series I have ever been to.

This is even under question?? :confused:

One of the most notorious offenders is always the health seminar. Of course, proof-texting does carry its own set of embarrassing problems.

I can't tell you how often I have sat there and cringed as the evangelist uses an out of context verse where Paul is warning his churches against defiling thier bodies through sexual immorality and temple prostitution as a case for diet and the health message! :doh:Meanwhile, the well-versed Christians from other denominations in the audience look at each other in befuddled bewilderment as they watch this display of Scriptural gymnastics with both humor and disbelief.

Doug Batchelor is a master at this. Rapid-fire proof texts levelled with machine-gun like precision, one after the other, after the other, after the other, leaving the listener overwhelmed, knowing something isn't quite right, but unable to place thier finger on it at the time.
 
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tall73

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The point is that you will obviously proof text after you have understood what the bible is saying. You take your time and let the bible explain itself. But when you have to proove your point to someone you will obviously proof text


Offering a text in support of a position is fine. The only issue is when it is taken out of context to show something other than what was intended.
 
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djconklin

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Originally Posted by djconklin
Again, where's the proof that the verse is being "proof-texted"?
Because the wine used in bible days was not Scholers grape juice as Adventism misleadingly teaches.

And the proof for this would be ...?
 
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moicherie

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And the proof for this would be ...?
Well read Genesis Noah did not get drunk on grape juice,
Jesus turned water into wine ,not grape juice, read the text where God said the COI could take the tithe and spend it on strong drink. Plus Schloers did not exist in bible days.
 
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Jimlarmore

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Well read Genesis Noah did not get drunk on grape juice,
Jesus turned water into wine ,not grape juice, read the text where God said the COI could take the tithe and spend it on strong drink. Plus Schloers did not exist in bible days.

So basically what you are saying is the creator of the universe miraculously made a pot of fermented wine so folks could get drunk at this wedding? I don't think so. Alcohol kills brain cells and adversely effects every single other cell in your body. Jesus did not come to destroy but to heal.

God Bless
Jim Larmore
 
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