Proof-Texting. Did Jesus use it? How should it be used?

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
You didn't go back far enough. Go to verse 17 in chapter 65:

Isaiah 65:17​

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Clearly this passage is talking about the earth made new, echoed by John:
​

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Well, you are just furthering the example. Please explain why this passage says that people will die in the new earth then.

Okay, we have settled that this talking about the new earth and new heavens. So, why does it talk about death and sin then (verse 20)? That verse isn't meant to be taken literally. It doesn't mean that there will be death and sinners in heaven. More literally it means that there will be no more premature deaths and if there were sinners that lived that long they'd regret it and wish they were dead (and so they shall be).

 

[woobadooba]

Okay, we have settled that this talking about the new earth and new heavens. So, why does it talk about death and sin then (verse 20)? That verse isn't meant to be taken literally. It doesn't mean that there will be death and sinners in heaven. More literally it means that there will be no more premature deaths and if there were sinners that lived that long they'd regret it and wish they were dead (and so they shall be).

I have arrived at a similar conclusion.

It would make no sense for a literal interpretation, as it would completely divert from the context of the passage which does speak of new heavens and a new earth, and emphasizes the fact that all people would know and worship God at the same time and in the same sense.

Has there ever been a time in history after the fall of man where everyone knew and worshiped God at the same time and in the same sense?

 

[tall73]

More frequently what I see is a text used to support an existing doctrine without the text actually being about that doctrine.


For instance, we had an evangelist at one time cite this text for the health message:

1Co 3:16 Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?
1Co 3:17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.


There is another text within the same book that gets across the idea that our bodies individually are a temple of God. But this verse is not speaking of that.

So does everyone agree this is an example of a mis-applied proof text?

 

[djconklin]

I don't think so; but then, I haven't seen any proof to the contrary either.

 

[woobadooba]

So does everyone agree this is an example of a mis-applied proof text?

I agree that it has been used in ways for which it wasn't intended.

The context suggests that Paul is referring to the people in general as being a Temple of God (he is addressing the church at Corinth), and thereby states that the Holy Spirit dwells in the midst of them. Just as each one of us has the Holy Spirit, so must all believers be governed by the same Spirit.

Therefore, the idea of defiling the Temple has to do with those who foster a divisive spirit. They come in with their worldly wisdom and corrupt the holy things of God. Paul made it clear that such people would be destroyed, as they are not walking with the Spirit, but are of the devil who is bound for destruction.

 

[djconklin]

I could see it being legitimately used both ways.

 

[tall73]

Conklin... take a look at the NUMBER of the word temple, and the number of the word you.

1Co 3:16 Οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ναὸς Θεοῦ ἐστε καὶ τὸ Πνεῦμα τοῦ Θεοῦ οἰκεῖ ἐν ὑμῖν;


I would say Woob's makes a lot more sense that being able to use it both way. Paul was not speaking about the body temple concept here.

 

[NightEternal]

Well, the church needs to maufacture some Biblical basis to enforce the health me$$age on behalf of Worthington Foods, Loma Linda Products and ABC's everywhere, don't they?

 

[djconklin]

Conklin... take a look at the NUMBER of the word temple, and the number of the word you.

Did that ll73, what's the point? Did you expect them to be the same??

 

[tall73]

Did that ll73, what's the point?

A plural you and a singular temple rules out that each one is a temple in this application of the metaphor.

Now see Woob's explanation.

 

[djconklin]

Well, the church needs to maufacture some Biblical basis to enforce the health me$$age on behalf of Worthington Foods, Loma Linda Products and ABC's everywhere, don't they?

Assumes lots of "facts" that aren't in evidence and never will be.

 

[djconklin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by djconklin
Did that ll73, what's the point?

A plural you and a singular temple rules out that each one is a temple in this application of the metaphor.

Oh that number! I was looking at the verse homiletically, not exegetically.

 

[sentipente]

More frequently what I see is a text used to support an existing doctrine without the text actually being about that doctrine.


For instance, we had an evangelist at one time cite this text for the health message:

1Co 3:16 Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?
1Co 3:17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.


There is another text within the same book that gets across the idea that our bodies individually are a temple of God. But this verse is not speaking of that.

Reminds me of something one of our theology professors said. Adventists have good doctrines but they use the wrong texts.

 

[sentipente]

Assumes lots of "facts" that aren't in evidence and never will be.

Stop the legal pretensions. Tell us what facts were assumed to be and why Rules of Evidence have any authority here.

 

[reddogs]

Well, the church needs to maufacture some Biblical basis to enforce the health me$$age on behalf of Worthington Foods, Loma Linda Products and ABC's everywhere, don't they?

They dont need to manufacture any basis as I am stocking their 'vegie munchies' as fast as I buy them. I probably show up on their marketing statistics marked as 'big red' from all the vegie meats I buy and cook on the 'barby' or serve 'raw'........:o

 

[djconklin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by djconklin
Assumes lots of "facts" that aren't in evidence and never will be.

Stop the legal pretensions. Tell us what facts were assumed to be and why Rules of Evidence have any authority here.

Hmm, no pretensions and it certainly should be obvious that if one claims that so-and-so is making $$$ one should be able toi say what the amount is that is suppsoedly being made. Secondly, if one claims that the church "maunfactured" a belief to support the making of said $$$ then one should have the proof for that as well. These are all rather commonsensical expectations vs. myth-making.

 

[djconklin]

Reminds me of something one of our theology professors said. Adventists have good doctrines but they use the wrong texts.

Who was this professor and in what class did he say it?

 

[NightEternal]

Hmm, no pretensions and it certainly should be obvious that if one claims that so-and-so is making $$$ one should be able toi say what the amount is that is suppsoedly being made. Secondly, if one claims that the church "maunfactured" a belief to support the making of said $$$ then one should have the proof for that as well. These are all rather commonsensical expectations vs. myth-making.

Conklin, is it really that hard to distinguish between a JOKE and a STATEMENT OF FACT?

Maybe the next time you tell a knock-knock joke I'll demand documentation and evidence that proves whoever you say is behind the door actually is.

Sheesh.

 

[sentipente]

Who was this professor and in what class did he say it?

I gave that information so you would not think the idea is original with me. Last I heard he was in Texas. That was the last time we spoke on the phone about 10 years ago.

 

[djconklin]

the next time you tell a knock-knock joke

First there'd have to be a first time.

Now, they've given me a mission to go find one!