• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.

Proof of the Trinity

Discussion in 'Traditional Theology' started by createdtoworship, May 7, 2020.

  1. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

    +1,702
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I honestly don't know where to post this thread, I wanted a christian only general theology forum and that is what this is, but it sounded like mod's wanted traditional doctrine. And this classifies as such. I like the traditional aspect of theology but this thread will talk about more than that so if this is in the wrong area, please move it to appropriate forum.

    I have not debated trinity verses in a while.

    but I want to present a channel that I am interested in as evidence:

    The Trinity in the Old Testament


    The Trinity in the New Testament


    What is the Trinity?
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

    +1,702
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Why is the trinity important:
     
  3. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    +25,642
    Anglican
    Married
    At bottom, we mortals cannot comprehend how there is but one God yet three somethings (called "persona" in the Greek) are all identified as that God. Almost every theory that seeks to explain the inexplicable fails at it.

    What we have, however, is divine revelation (the Bible) instructing us that this is the nature of God. If we simply go with that fact, there's no reason to beat ourselves up trying to "show" how something that's beyond our ability to fully understand can possibly be. That "it IS what it is" should be sufficient while we are still in the flesh.
     
  4. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Simul Justus et Peccator Supporter

    +40,833
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Republican
    TRINITY
    GOD IS ONE AND THREE

    This is what the LORD says—Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
    I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

    ISAIAH 44:6

    The Old Testament constantly insists that there is only one God, the self-revealed Creator, who must be worshiped and loved exclusively (Deut. 6:4–5; Isa. 44:6–45:25). The New Testament agrees (Mark 12:29–30; 1 Cor. 8:4; Eph. 4:6; 1 Tim. 2:5) but speaks of three personal agents, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, working together in the manner of a team to bring about salvation (Rom. 8; Eph. 1:3–14; 2 Thess. 2:13–14; 1 Pet. 1:2). The historic formulation of the Trinity (derived from the Latin word trinitas, meaning “threeness”) seeks to circumscribe and safeguard this 'mystery' (not explain it; that is beyond us), and it confronts us with perhaps the most difficult thought that the human mind has ever been asked to handle. It is not easy; but it is true.

    The doctrine springs from the facts that the New Testament historians report, and from the revelatory teaching that, humanly speaking, grew out of these facts. Jesus, who prayed to his Father and taught his disciples to do the same, convinced them that he was personally divine, and belief in his divinity and in the rightness of offering him worship and prayer is basic to New Testament faith (John 20:28–31; cf. 1:18; Acts 7:59; Rom. 9:5; 10:9–13; 2 Cor. 12:7–9; Phil. 2:5–6; Col. 1:15–17; 2:9; Heb. 1:1–12; 1 Pet. 3:15). Jesus promised to send another Paraclete (he himself having been the first one), and Paraclete signifies a many-sided personal ministry as counselor, advocate, helper, comforter, ally, supporter (John 14:16–17, 26; 15:26–27; 16:7–15). This other Paraclete, who came at Pentecost to fulfill this promised ministry, was the Holy Spirit, recognized from the start as a third divine person: to lie to him, said Peter not long after Pentecost, is to lie to God (Acts 5:3–4).

    So Christ prescribed baptism “in the name (singular: one God, one name) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”—the three persons who are the one God to whom Christians commit themselves (Matt. 28:19). So we meet the three persons in the account of Jesus’ own baptism: the Father acknowledged the Son, and the Spirit showed his presence in the Son’s life and ministry (Mark 1:9–11). So we read the trinitarian blessing of 2 Corinthians 13:14, and the prayer for grace and peace from the Father, the Spirit, and Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:4–5 (would John have put the Spirit between the Father and the Son if he had not regarded the Spirit as divine in the same sense as they are?). These are some of the more striking examples of the trinitarian outlook and emphasis of the New Testament. Though the technical language of historic trinitarianism is not found there, trinitarian faith and thinking are present throughout its pages, and in that sense the Trinity must be acknowledged as a biblical doctrine: an eternal truth about God which, though never explicit in the Old Testament, is plain and clear in the New.

    The basic assertion of this doctrine is that the unity of the one God is complex. The three personal “subsistences” (as they are called) are coequal and coeternal centers of self-awareness, each being “I” in relation to two who are “you” and each partaking of the full divine essence (the “stuff” of deity, if we may dare to call it that) along with the other two. They are not three roles played by one person (that is modalism), nor are they three gods in a cluster (that is tritheism); the one God (“he”) is also, and equally, “they,” and “they” are always together and always cooperating, with the Father initiating, the Son complying, and the Spirit executing the will of both, which is his will also. This is the truth about God that was revealed through the words and works of Jesus, and that undergirds the reality of salvation as the New Testament sets it forth.

    The practical importance of the doctrine of the Trinity is that it requires us to pay equal attention, and give equal honor, to all three persons in the unity of their gracious ministry to us. That ministry is the subject matter of the gospel, which, as Jesus’ conversation with Nicodemus shows, cannot be stated without bringing in their distinct roles in God’s plan of grace (John 3:1–15; note especially vv. 3, 5–8, 13–15, and John’s expository comments, which NIV renders as part of the conversation itself, vv. 16–21). All non-Trinitarian formulations of the Christian message are by biblical standards inadequate and indeed fundamentally false, and will naturally tend to pull Christian lives out of shape. ~Packer, J. I. (1993). Concise theology: a guide to historic Christian beliefs (pp. 40–42). Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  5. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

    +1,702
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I agree. We should not beat ourselves up at all. But if there is an illustration that answers it, then it's good. The illustration of the sun and rays in that last video was the best I have seen.

    That and the multiplication

    it's not 1+1+1=3
    it's 1X1X1=1

    The Jesus magnifies the Father, and the spirit magnifies the Son and testifies of Him.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  6. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Simul Justus et Peccator Supporter

    +40,833
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Republican

    This video can be viewed in HD quality in Settings!
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2020
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  7. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

    +1,702
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    early church fathers such as turtullian use the term "three in one" or "triad"

    which later became "trinity" which is a latin term.
     
  8. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

    +1,702
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    thanks!
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    • List
  9. Amittai

    Amittai monitor evaluator

    918
    +308
    United Kingdom
    Non-Denom
    Single
    Holy Trinity is about space for the other other.

    I.e not clingy, possessive, exclusive.

    As an evangeliser, do you want the pastoring and the teaching to prosper?
     
  10. Broken Fence

    Broken Fence Stand with Jesus. He is with you in the whirlwind. Supporter

    +1,341
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Constitution
    The way I understand the Trinity is Father, Son, Holy Spirit. These three are one.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  11. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,288
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Father and Son are family Persons . . . of love. And "God is love" (in 1 John 4:8&16). And the Holy Spirit shares God's own love with us > "in our hearts" >

    "Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

    So, the Holy Spirit is a Person of love who is God, too. And the Holy Spirit takes care of God's children, and prepares the church Bride for our Groom Jesus > things a mother does. So, the Holy Spirit also is a family love Person.

    And God made man in His image, and man is more than one family person . . . father, child, mother . . . like Father, Son, Holy Spirit. So, yes there can be more than one Person or person of the same one being.
     
  12. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

    +1,842
    Christian
    Married
    The trinity is comprised of three "persons": God the father, Jesus the son, and the Holy Spirit. Between them they represent the Godhead. God is spirit; He has no actual body. In order for his wishes/demands to be carried out, He gave His son Jesus, who was always with Him that task. For a time He (Jesus) was a Jewish person on Earth carrying out God's instructions, then he was murdered and was resurrected to the place of honor next to God. In order for us not to be left without a Godly presence, He sent us the Holy Spirit (a spirit, like God) to live within us and guide us into living righteously until we are redeemed and dwell with the Godhead forever.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  13. Broken Fence

    Broken Fence Stand with Jesus. He is with you in the whirlwind. Supporter

    +1,341
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Constitution
    The Spirit is not like God, is God's Spirit poured out on all flesh.
     
  14. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

    +1,842
    Christian
    Married
    The Holy Spirit is the third "person" of the Godhead. He is not "like God", he is the spiritual manifestation of God.
     
  15. Broken Fence

    Broken Fence Stand with Jesus. He is with you in the whirlwind. Supporter

    +1,341
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    US-Constitution
    Agreed
     
  16. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Simul Justus et Peccator Supporter

    +40,833
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Republican
    If anyone is interested, here's an excerpt from the SoF of Grace Community Church in California (Dr. John MacArthur's church).

    God the Holy Spirit. We teach that the Holy Spirit is a divine Person, eternal, underived, possessing all the attributes of personality and deity, including intellect (1 Corinthians 2:10-13), emotions (Ephesians 4:30), will (1 Corinthians 12:11), eternality (Hebrews 9:14), omnipresence (Psalm 139:7-10), omniscience (Isaiah 40:13-14), omnipotence (Romans 15:13), and truthfulness (John 16:13). In all the divine attributes He is coequal and consubstantial with the Father and the Son (Matthew 28:19; Acts 5:3-4; 28:25-26; 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Jeremiah 31:31-34 with Hebrews 10:15-17).

    We teach that it is the work of the Holy Spirit to execute the divine will with relation to all mankind. We recognize His sovereign activity in creation (Genesis 1:2), the incarnation (Matthew 1:18), the written revelation (2 Peter 1:20-21), and the work of salvation (John 3:5-7).

    We teach that the work of the Holy Spirit in this age began at Pentecost, when He came from the Father as promised by Christ (John 14:16-17; 15:26) to initiate and complete the building of the Body of Christ, which is His church (1 Corinthians 12:13). The broad scope of His divine activity includes convicting the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment; glorifying the Lord Jesus Christ and transforming believers into the image of Christ (John 16:7-9; Acts 1:5; 2:4; Romans 8:29; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Ephesians 2:22).

    We teach that the Holy Spirit is the supernatural and sovereign Agent in regeneration, baptizing all believers into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). The Holy Spirit also indwells, sanctifies, instructs, empowers them for service, and seals them unto the day of redemption (Romans 8:9; 2 Corinthians 3:6; Ephesians 1:13).

    We teach that the Holy Spirit is the divine Teacher, who guided the apostles and prophets into all truth as they committed to writing God’s revelation, the Bible (2 Peter 1:19-21). Every believer possesses the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit from the moment of salvation, and it is the duty of all those born of the Spirit to be filled with (controlled by) the Spirit (John 16:13; Romans 8:9; Ephesians 5:18; 1 John 2:20, 27).

    We teach that the Holy Spirit administers spiritual gifts to the church. The Holy Spirit glorifies neither Himself nor His gifts by ostentatious displays, but He does glorify Christ by implementing His work of redeeming the lost and building up believers in the most holy faith (John 16:13-14; Acts 1:8; 1 Corinthians 12:4-11; 2 Corinthians 3:18).

    We teach, in this respect, that God the Holy Spirit is sovereign in the bestowing of all His gifts for the perfecting of the saints today, and that speaking in tongues and the working of sign miracles in the beginning days of the church were for the purpose of pointing to and authenticating the apostles as revealers of divine truth, and were never intended to be characteristic of the lives of believers (1 Corinthians 12:4-11; 13:8-10; 2 Corinthians 12:12; Ephesians 4:7-12; Hebrews 2:1-4).
    ~Doctrinal Statement | Grace Community Church
    --David
     
  17. agapelove

    agapelove Well-Known Member

    840
    +737
    United States
    Christian
    In Relationship
    The Trinity reveals that our God is a God of relationship.

    The best illustration I can think of is how we each hold different identities within ourselves too. I am a daughter, sister, and friend, all at the same time.
     
  18. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

    +1,702
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I did not quote everyone, but here is a great resource for pneumatology, the study of the Holy Spirit, here a half dozen verses referring to Him as God.

    Verses showing identity, ministry, and personhood of the Holy Spirit | CARM.org
     
  19. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,288
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Here I see how you are representing God more as personal and with purposes, versus just a theoretical item of doctrinal explanation. I think this is good.

    I would say the Holy Spirit manifests God, yes, but He is a Person who is subject to another Person, the Father, and Jesus sent the Holy Spirit. So, there is inter-Personal relating, not only One manifesting in different ways, I would say. And we have Family image names for the first two Person's > Father and Son. Even if each is a manifestation of the Family, each is a distinct Person. And the Holy Spirit is listed by Jesus along with two Persons; so I consider this means the Holy Spirit is a Person, too.

    But what matters is how the Holy Spirit shares God's own love with us, "in our hearts" >

    "Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

    And Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit as "another Comforter", in John 14:16. I would say a "Comforter" would be a Person; because He would be personally comforting and not only being a fluffy bed cover to warm you :) And the Holy Spirit is often called "He", not "It".

    But Jesus can't be also His own Father. And the Father can't also be His own Son. So, I see how They are two different Persons, but of the same spiritual being of love > "God is love," we have in 1 John 4:8&16. The Holy Spirit is also a Person of this love.

    They do manifest God to us, but They are Personal; so I would say They are manifestations but as Persons . . . of family caring and sharing love.
     
  20. Athanasius377

    Athanasius377 Out of the deep I called unto thee O Lord Supporter

    +1,322
    United States
    Anglican
    Married
    US-Constitution
    I think it's helpful to realize that we stand on the shoulders of the giants that came before us while we wrestle with how to explain something like the Holy Trinity. Below is the Anthanasian Creed from the Fifth century and is still receited by Rome, Lutheran, Anglican, Reformed churches to this very day and for good reason.

    Also, catholic simply means "universal" and is used over and against gnostic sects that claimed to be christian.


    Athanasian Creed
    (early fifth century)

    1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith: AthC 1
    2. Which Faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled: without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. AthC 2
    3. And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship One God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; AthC 3
    4. Neither confounding the Persons: nor dividing the Substance. AthC 4
    5. For there is one Person of the Father: another of the Son: and another of the Holy Spirit. AthC 5
    6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is all one: the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. AthC 6
    7. Such as the Father is: such is the Son: and such is the Holy Spirit. AthC 7
    8. The Father uncreated: the Son uncreated: and the Holy Spirit uncreated. AthC 8
    9. The Father incomprehensible: the Son incomprehensible: and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. AthC 9
    10. The Father eternal: the Son eternal: and the Holy Spirit eternal. AthC 10
    11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal. AthC 11
    12. As also not three uncreated, nor three incomprehensibles, but one uncreated: and one incomprehensible. AthC 12
    13. So, likewise, the Father is Almighty: the Son Almighty: and the Holy Spirit Almighty. AthC 13
    14. And yet they are not three Almighties but one Almighty. AthC 14
    15. So the Father is God: the Son is God: and the Holy Spirit is God. AthC 15
    16. And yet they are not three Gods but one God. AthC 16
    17. So likewise the Father is Lord: the Son Lord: and the Holy Spirit Lord. AthC 17
    18. And yet not three Lords: but one Lord. AthC 18
    19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity: to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord: AthC 19
    20. So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say: There be three Gods, or three Lords. AthC 20
    21. The Father is made of none: neither created nor begotten. AthC 21
    22. The Son is of the Father alone: not made, nor created: but begotten. AthC 22
    23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten: but proceeding. AthC 23
    24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers: one Son, not three Sons: one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. AthC 24
    25. And in this Trinity none is before or after another: none is greater or less than another. AthC 25
    26. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. AthC 26
    27. So that in all things, as aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. AthC 27
    28. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity. AthC 28
    29. Furthermore it is necessary to eternal salvation: that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. AthC 29
    30. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess: that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; AthC 30
    31. God, of the substance of the Father: begotten before the worlds: and man, of the substance of His Mother, born in the world. AthC 31
    32. Perfect God: and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. AthC 32
    33. Equal to the Father, as touching His Godhead: and inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. AthC 33
    34. Who although He be God and Man; yet He is not two, but one Christ. AthC 34
    35. One; not by conversion of the GodHead into flesh: but by taking of the Manhood into God. AthC 35
    36. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance: but by unity of Person. AthC 36
    37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man: so God and Man is one Christ; AthC 37
    38. Who suffered for our salvation: descended into hell: rose again the third day from the dead. AthC 38
    39. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth at the right hand of the Father God Almighty. AthC 39
    40. From whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. AthC 40
    41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies; AthC 41
    42. And shall give account for their own works. AthC 42
    43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting: and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. AthC 43
    44. This is the Catholic Faith: which except a man believed faithfully, he cannot be saved.
     
Loading...