Proof of man's sinful nature

[Rafael]

I think there are too many people on this planet.

Would you like to see statistics on that? There is more than enough If men truely loved one another as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob commands. Greed and attitudes much like the one you just have shown tell me that you don't think we have that burden to care for our brothers and sisters. Jesus said that it was. He said that if we did not love our brother then we could not love Him, and that we were to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give shelter to the stranger, and to visit the sick and imprisoned. You agree with the world. Who do we pick out to shove off the boat? Shall the sick and the handicapped go first like in World War II Germany or would the Jews and the Christians be better off rid of? You see, this is exactly what the Bible says will happen, but that God would defend the defenseless and come to the aid of those poor on judgment day, bringing justice and judgment.

Matthew 25:31 ¶ "But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne.
32 All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate them as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left.
34 Then the King will say to those on the right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home.
36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’
37 "Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38 Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing?
39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison, and visit you?’
40 And the King will tell them, ‘I assure you, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’
41 "Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his demons!
42 For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me anything to drink.
43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you gave me no clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’
44 "Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’
45 And he will answer, ‘I assure you, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’
46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life."

Rev. 6:9 ¶ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

[LittleLion]

Rafael,

I think there are too many people on this planet.

Would you like to see statistics on that? There is more than enough If men truely loved one another as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob commands.

Greed and attitudes much like the one you just have shown tell me that you don't think we have that burden to care for our brothers and sisters.

Where have I in the sentence "I think there are too many people on this planet." shown greed?!

Your conclusions are completely unwarranted and unfair.

Dreadful, what you imply that I think.

I think there are too many people on this planet. We are going to run out of oil and other unreplenishable resources if people keep spending the way they do. With the lifestyle that is now considered to be the norm, the planet is too small to support the whole population to live that standard. This is my problem with "there are too many people on this planet".

So many people tend to view sex primarily as a fun or "release of tension", and unwanted pregnancies happen, and then those children get either aborted or grow up unloved -- and then they only add to the general misery.

Jesus said that it was. He said that if we did not love our brother then we could not love Him, and that we were to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give shelter to the stranger, and to visit the sick and imprisoned.

You agree with the world.

And I think you are angry and jumping to conclusion. If someone has problems in agreeing with the "world", it is me.

Who do we pick out to shove off the boat?

I don't suggest to kill anyone. I suggest that people stop viewing sex primarily as fun and "release of tension".


Now cool off and know who truly is your enemy.

 

[Faith In God]

novcncy,




Quote:




I was referring to obedience in a proper format, such as children obeying their parents legitimate directions, such as, "Don't play in the street."





What is a "legitimate direction"? Keep in mind that parents give many directions, not all are legitimate, and by this, they undermine their own authority. No wonder children doubt them.



Quote:




By nature, children will do the exact thing they know they are not supposed to do.





??
I don't think so.

Do you have kids? We have a little boy with us, and that is exactly what he does sometimes.

Quote:




I am not implying that one should always do exactly as they are told, no matter what it is. In the proper establishments God has set up, such as family, government, etc., disobeying, rebelling,and the like ARE wrong.





You seem to be forgetting that even though those proper establishments are set up by God, this doesn't mean they are perfect.

By being sinners themselves, parents make it impossible for their children to view them as perfect authorities. This is why children disobey.

No, it is not. My four year old nephew doesn't have the brains to even understand that idea, and he disobeys. No one taught him to do it, and he really isn't smart enough to be an insurrectionist, so ...

Quote:




I think we as humans are taught to be better liars (or any sin, for that matter), but not to lie.





I think we are most of all being taught to be unclear and indirect.

Perhaps. Have you ever lied? Who taught you to lie? Who taught you to steal? Ever hated someone? Who taught you?

Quote:




My two year old tells me she has to go potty, just so she can get out of bed at night. She doesn't really have to go, but she knows if she says she does, she can get out of bed for a moment or two. As we teach her to reason, she will soon discover that she needs to tell less blatant lies, and therfore, she will become a better liar, but I'm fairly sure that I didn't teach her to make things up. I'm not claiming to have been perfect in front of her, I'm sure I HAVE taught her far too many bad things, but I think you can see what I'm driving at.





I think your daughter wants attention, but she doesn't know how to say so, or she has been taught that it is bad if she wants attention. This is why she makes up an alternative strategy to get it.
Maybe it would be better to teach her to tell straight away what she wants. To identify her desires exactly -- like "I want you to read me a story now", or "I want to cuddle with you now", or "I want you to listen to me now".

The challenge will then be for you how to respond to these desires ...

Rubbish. My nephew knows hundreds of ways to get attention, many not bad. But sometimes he will flat out be a brat and list things he wants that aren't reasonable and aren't remotely what he wants. Usually when he throws a tantrum. That alone should tell you something. First hand experience would answer your questions, LL.

Quote:




Have a great day!!





You too!

* * *


Nightfire,



Quote:




It's wrong and unbiblical to say "we are sinful by nature", if we don't define that nature ("the flesh") as its authors did. It's an easy but dogmatically fatal mistake to make. We have a sinful nature, a nature that was born from sin - but we also have the divine nature, being created in God's image, one that the devil desperately wants to suppress by twisting our healthy desires and senses into rebellion and excess against it. If he can do this without us noticing it, or confessing it, he effectively turned us against God, sin's only cure. And we just blissfully go on thinking we are only struggling with ourselves and others a little, and "this has nothing to do with God".





The sinful nature is born of sin, and this first comes by inheritance, not by our own doing?

?? I lost it too.

Quote:




And we just blissfully go on thinking we are only struggling with ourselves and others a little, and "this has nothing to do with God".





Explain.



Quote:




The alternative seems irrational as you say - and it should, because it requires us to stop seeking just our own advantage, but give them up to God.





No, you misread me. We are seeking our *perceived* advantage -- what this is depends on our experience with the ignorant world, and God's intervention.



Quote:




Our natural inclination is to want to stay in control, even when it's clear that we aren't.





I actually do not think so. I think humans inherently wish to submit to some authority.

The problem is that the very concept of authority is marred by our experince with earthly authorities -- often abusing their power or being ineffective. Seeing that not all criminals get caught is a mighty blow to our faith in the authority to the police and justice system, for example. We learn not to trust authorities in general.

Concepts concepts. I'm neutral.

* * *

Rafael,




Quote:




The flesh and mind work together, but that isn't the point. The point is what are the results of man's works without God's leadership or as the Bible puts it, "works of the flesh" that are not the worlks that follow those led by His Spirit and displaying the fruits of His Spirit.





Alright.



Quote:




With men, thirty thousand die every night from hunger, and 109 babies are aborted every minute which adds to 50 billion a year. Which work of the flesh would those come under that would allow us as a race to turn blind eyes to such things?





I think there are too many people on this planet..

Go right ahead. Unless you repent of your sins (acknowledge them as evil in God's sight and turn from them), you will likewise perish.

 

[Rafael]

Rafael,





Where have I in the sentence "I think there are too many people on this planet." shown greed?!

Your conclusions are completely unwarranted and unfair.

Dreadful, what you imply that I think.

I think there are too many people on this planet. We are going to run out of oil and other unreplenishable resources if people keep spending the way they do. With the lifestyle that is now considered to be the norm, the planet is too small to support the whole population to live that standard. This is my problem with "there are too many people on this planet".

So many people tend to view sex primarily as a fun or "release of tension", and unwanted pregnancies happen, and then those children get either aborted or grow up unloved -- and then they only add to the general misery.




And I think you are angry and jumping to conclusion. If someone has problems in agreeing with the "world", it is me.




I don't suggest to kill anyone. I suggest that people stop viewing sex primarily as fun and "release of tension".


Now cool off and know who truly is your enemy.

I have no anger towards you at all and no need to cool off. The position you take that mankind displays no nature to sin goes against the teachings of the Bible, and seems to be one of the easiest things to see in man, although I was very hopeful for man as a young person and saw a bright future for mankind - being very idealistic as a young person. I have been disappointed in the world and how it came out and in myself. I used to think I was okay and not so bad of a guy until I finally learned a bit about where all this death and destruction comes from in the world and in my own self. Paul puts it this way:

"I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do -- this I keep on doing" (Romans 7:18-19).

Even as children we display the sin nature in anger and egotism. A long time ago when I was agnostic, a group of Baptist men came by my apartment witnessing about the Bible. Being a friendly person I invited them in and told them that I did not think that men had a sin nature, but that with the proper environment, each child could be a genius or the best they could be with proper instruction. An old man of the group spoke up and said something I remembered as truth when he spoke of how little babies and children show anger and selfishness without ever being taught to be that way. In fact the had to be taught to give and that, indeed, the world did not revolve around them. I could not refute his answer at all. Later on, I found what the Bible said on my own:

Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5)

Pr 22:15 A youngster’s heart is filled with foolishness, but discipline will drive it away.

I have changed my ideals into something that can be realized through God's help and with His Holy Spirit - that we can overcome sin in our lives when we ask God for His Holy Spirit and believe in Him.

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Re 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Does this change the world? Only to the extent that we make in our effect on all we touch in our lives, as we are judged by that life we are given and the effect it has on others that are our brothers and sisters. If God's laws had been obeyed, there would be none of the suffering we see on earth, and the supply would be abundant for all things if people would share the great wealth there is on this planet.... but it is not. Those words of Jesus concerning the poor are very important, as we are supposed to live our lives for others, being servants, if we are to be like Jesus. Is that how we all do? No, we fail to live up to the ideals of the example given to us by God's laws and example in Jesus, but we have the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all unrighteousness and the word of our testimony that we are trying to achive the goal we have set before us by God. Does He give us goals to achive in life. Yes, He certainly does.

I JOHN 3:23 And this is His command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to LOVE one another as he commanded us.

I JOHN 3:16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children let us not love in words or tongue but with ACTIONS and truth.

I JOHN 2:15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all these worldly things, these evil desires-the craze for sex, the ambition to buy everything that appeals to you, and the pride that comes from wealth and importance- these are not from God. They are from the evil world itself.

JAMES 1:27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and TO KEEP ONESELF FROM BEING POLLUTED BY THE WORLD.

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

EPHESIANS 2:10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to DO GOOD WORKS, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

TITUS 2:14 Christ Jesus; who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, ZEALOUS FOR GOOD DEEDS.

HEBREWS 10:24 And let us consider one another how to stimulate and provoke one another to love an, GOOD DEEDS and noble activities. 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Mt 20:27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

Proverbs 31:8-9 Speak up for those who cannot speak up for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitue. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.

 

[Christian_Victor]

Well, I believe we're not sinful everywhere.


Like, we're not sinful in our spiritual side, our we?

But, here's some proof:

I don't remember the verse, but doesn't Jesus say that Adultery is when you're married, but have sex with another person outsideof your wedlock?

Well, if you're married, and you see this hot lady, and you look at her thinking sexuall things (from actual sex to just flirting), that is thinking about Adultery. So, you KNOW you just can't help it, but you also KNOW that thi is wrong. There's your sinful thoughts, which in turn is your sinful nature.

Now, if you don't have this problem, then you're not sinful when it comes to Adultery! But, you ARE sinful in other places, just read what Jesus says and look inside yourself.

 

[Nightfire]

It's wrong and unbiblical to say "we are sinful by nature", if we don't define that nature ("the flesh") as its authors did. It's an easy but dogmatically fatal mistake to make. We have a sinful nature, a nature that was born from sin - but we also have the divine nature, being created in God's image, one that the devil desperately wants to suppress by twisting our healthy desires and senses into rebellion and excess against it. If he can do this without us noticing it, or confessing it, he effectively turned us against God, sin's only cure. And we just blissfully go on thinking we are only struggling with ourselves and others a little, and "this has nothing to do with God".

The sinful nature is born of sin, and this first comes by inheritance, not by our own doing?

We inherit the world corrupted by sin, and the propensity to conform to it rather than God is always with us. But we prove our own guilt by participating in it. The temptations that prompt us into this participation are so common, so ingrained in human history and fallen nature, that we barely notice it - and when we do, we think we can sort it out ourselves, without God's help.

We are often simply not aware of the depth of sin, or how far from the shore we start out. On the surface it looks deceptively shallow, even insignificant (never mind that our feet are furiously treading water). If we can't even admit to ourselves we are lost, how will we ever admit it to God by asking for His help? But no, we want to do it ourselves - which is understandable, because we either want the victory or the success (the *perceived advantage*); we want to be able to make it.

The problem is that we don't ever get to a point where we are able to, if we aren't first equipped by God to do it.

I actually do not think so. I think humans inherently wish to submit to some authority.

The problem is that the very concept of authority is marred by our experince with earthly authorities -- often abusing their power or being ineffective. Seeing that not all criminals get caught is a mighty blow to our faith in the authority to the police and justice system, for example. We learn not to trust authorities in general.

True, very true. That's where a lot of resistance to "giving authority to God" comes from. People mistrust absolute power (although it doesn't really make sense to mistrust God - who judges over all such injustice and corruption, and is the final authority over his creation anyway). This universal experience of injustice and how it affects our perception of God is a good example how sin clouds our relationship with God.

 

[LittleLion]

Rafael,

I have no anger towards you at all and no need to cool off. The position you take that mankind displays no nature to sin goes against the teachings of the Bible, and seems to be one of the easiest things to see in man, although I was very hopeful for man as a young person and saw a bright future for mankind - being very idealistic as a young person. I have been disappointed in the world and how it came out and in myself. I used to think I was okay and not so bad of a guy until I finally learned a bit about where all this death and destruction comes from in the world and in my own self.

When I say that man's nature is not inherently sinful, I am not saying that man is "okay and not so bad".

I have never been an idalist about humans.

Even as children we display the sin nature in anger and egotism.

No. You would have a point if parents were perfect parents, and children would still be angry and egotistical.
How many perfect parents do you know?

Would you like to be your own child, would you be happy with someone as yourself for your father?

A long time ago when I was agnostic, a group of Baptist men came by my apartment witnessing about the Bible. Being a friendly person I invited them in and told them that I did not think that men had a sin nature, but that with the proper environment, each child could be a genius or the best they could be with proper instruction. An old man of the group spoke up and said something I remembered as truth when he spoke of how little babies and children show anger and selfishness without ever being taught to be that way. In fact the had to be taught to give and that, indeed, the world did not revolve around them. I could not refute his answer at all.

One, you are forgetting that children are unable to take care for themselves, they are unable to provide for themselves. They must, from their side, make sure that those who can take care of them, will do so. If childen just quietly sat there, like stuffed puppets, do you think someone would pay attention to them? They would die of hunger.

Two, about this "children know how to lie themselves, they needn't be taught" is a false estimation of the situation, again supposing that parents are perfect, while children are little evil monsters. Only if a child would have perfect parents, but would still display anger and lie, could the child be said to have a sinful nature.


Really, I see so much unfounded resentment against children. And often, children are treated as if they were monsters. No wonder they become monstrous adults.

Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5)

Are you so sure that it is impossible the psalmist is referring to being an illegitimate child?

It used to be a great stigma to be an illegitimate child; those people were treated as second-class people.

Proverbs 31:8-9 Speak up for those who cannot speak up for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitue. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.

And children are exactly the ones who cannot speak up for themselves.


* * *

Nightfire,

We inherit the world corrupted by sin, and the propensity to conform to it rather than God is always with us.

We inherit only the propensity to conform to what is nearest to us.

Get a lion cub, and you can make a pet out of him.

But we prove our own guilt by participating in it. The temptations that prompt us into this participation are so common, so ingrained in human history and fallen nature, that we barely notice it - and when we do, we think we can sort it out ourselves, without God's help.

You think like someone inside of religion, of course. Coming from the position that one is already presented a perfect example (which should be the parents and other members of the community), but then strays from it due to this strangely developed sinful nature (How could it come to be? In a perfect environment? It must be that it is inborn.).

It is the social environment of the religious that is so absolutely confusing:
It *says* it *should* be perfect, but it *is* not so.

Like I said earlier to Rafael, we could claim a sinful nature only if we had it inspite of growing up in a perfect environment.
But. The religious environment is indeed assessed to be perfect (an is), and then children are judged by this assessment. But this assessment is a should, not an is. So this judgement is completely unwarranted.

We are often simply not aware of the depth of sin, or how far from the shore we start out. On the surface it looks deceptively shallow, even insignificant (never mind that our feet are furiously treading water). If we can't even admit to ourselves we are lost, how will we ever admit it to God by asking for His help? But no, we want to do it ourselves - which is understandable, because we either want the victory or the success (the *perceived advantage*); we want to be able to make it.

The problem is that we don't ever get to a point where we are able to, if we aren't first equipped by God to do it.

I take such are the problems of those inside of religion. They truly can come up with ideas of doing things without God -- after all, they know what they are talking about.

 

[Nightfire]

We inherit only the propensity to conform to what is nearest to us.

Anything that comes nearer to us than God is a temptation that might lead us away from Him into sin. We inherit this distance from God, which comes all the way from Adam. In his case, He let the serpent's words be nearer to him than God's, even in a perfect environment.

I take such are the problems of those inside of religion. They truly can come up with ideas of doing things without God -- after all, they know what they are talking about.

1 Corinthians 8
...We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God.​

 

[LittleLion]

Anything that comes nearer to us than God is a temptation that might lead us away from Him into sin. We inherit this distance from God, which comes all the way from Adam. In his case, He let the serpent's words be nearer to him than God's, even in a perfect environment.

I think religionists have made such a big deal out of this separation that it now looks as if it was willed and authored by man.
And then all that guilt ...

I am quite sure if people had focus more on their works and less on their perceived guilt, it would all be much better.

 

[Nightfire]

I think religionists have made such a big deal out of this separation that it now looks as if it was willed and authored by man.
And then all that guilt ...

I am quite sure if people had focus more on their works and less on their perceived guilt, it would all be much better.

The problem is that the separation was entertained by man. It is for many a big deal because of the significance it has in many areas of our lives. It weighs heavier on us the further we are from God, and we can call it by many names.

But to be honest I never think about that separation much. Guilt is like pain, merely a signal that shows me when something is wrong, and it would be unwise to dwell on it as if it's a goal in itself. The goal is to address whatever makes me want to hide from God, however daunting and overwhelming it seems.

At first I flinched, because I thought my Father would be so mad he'd kick me out of the house. I knew I had broken his trust. Then I was assured of his love, and now the guilt makes sense. It is "made perfect".

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.​