Proof of man's sinful nature

[LittleLion]

Proof of man's sinful nature



What is the proof of man's sinful nature?

How do we know whether it is man's nature which is sinful -- or whether it is that man's nature is to be able to follow different masters (having free will, basically), and when this master is Satan, then man's nature results in being sinful?
Is man's nature sinful when his master is God?

 

[heron]

That's a good question, and I think you'll get a broad range of answers. The term "sinful" can be a bit vague.

I don't see that we are always prone to sin, except in subtle areas of greed, pride, and jealousy. We have survival instincts that might play out to push others aside. We have temptations that we don't always follow through on. We don't always think clearly before we act. But we're not all mass-murderers.

Look around at how prevalent identity theft is, child abuse, cheating on taxes...ways that people put their desires above the common welfare of all. Friends that I respect will slip things into conversation on bending rules and getting away with things. Some of this might be the desire to be edgy, to feel a sense of daring.

The apostle Paul, who spoke of our sinful nature, was a perfectionist in his pre-christian life. His comments might be colored with his own self-criticism. (Did I just start a debate on inerrancy?) I think he is admitting that our self-control is sometimes weak, our intentions are not always pure, and we continually have to battle certain temptations.

 

[heron]

Oh, I still didn't answer your question.

If Satan says, "sacrifice the cat in the woods," I guess you could say that the master influences the human toward more sinful nature.

The phrase that "we have become new creatures in Christ" supports your concept, although I don't think it means we are not longer prone to sin. The Holy Spirit gives us additional help in the fruit of the Spirit-- love, joy, peace, patience...those are not of our own striving, but play out in our actions.

Master does not mean a slave-master relationship, though. God doesn't just take over our minds and lives. We still have choices in everything we do. We have forgiveness for mistakes we are sorry for. Our actions toward goodness come out of love for God, and respect for his plans. Doing good does not control our salvation, or God's love for us as individuals.

 

[sinner/SAVED]

There is an easy test. Just make a conscious attempt to not sin for a period of time. Try a week and see how far you can make it. I make it about as far as Kramer did on the Seinfeld episode where they challenged each other to give up masturbating.

 

[novcncy]

Proof of man's sinful nature



What is the proof of man's sinful nature?

How do we know whether it is man's nature which is sinful -- or whether it is that man's nature is to be able to follow different masters (having free will, basically), and when this master is Satan, then man's nature results in being sinful?
Is man's nature sinful when his master is God?

The proof is in man's natural actions, before he is capable of making any philosophical choices at all. For example, does a person have to be taught to lie, steal, disobey, fight, be rebelioius, etc. etc.? Nope, people are doing those things long before they can reason out which master/religion/way of life they intend to follow.

I don't know that anyone chooses Satan as their master, at least when starting from a truly neutral postion. They make themselves their own master, they do what is right in their own eyes, and then Satan amplifies that effect with the end result always the same. In their desire to please themselves, they end up serving Satan.

For a Christian, the flesh will always have the impedement of sin. This sin nature will constantly be at war with the new nature of the spirit, which has been given by God. So a Christian, who claims his master to be God, can still sin, because he is living in his human body, which is by nature, sinful.

 

[Rafael]

Take a look at the world of man and tell me the attributes of the flesh. War, hatred, envy, jealousy, selfishness, greed, poverty, pollution, disregard for life of all kinds. What is the result of that nature if not death, and we all die even though scientist who study the body see that the human body should last much longer but turns upon itself at a certain point and moves towards death. The Bible accurately points these things out as fact and pulls no punches in its stories of men in the Bible. Me are stiff-necked and proud all the way through it except for One man who was more than a man - Jesus. He was the only man to escape the natire of man:

Ro 5:17 The sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over us, but all who receive God’s wonderful, gracious gift of righteousness will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.

 

[Faith In God]

Proof of man's sinful nature



What is the proof of man's sinful nature?

I'm going to answer one question at the time, because each question is different (surprisingly). I'll answer with a some inferences on your part:

Have you ever worked with young kids? Or better yet, have you ever raised kids? What do you have to teach them? To share or to steal? He might have learned to steal by seeing it one time, but how much harder is it to teach a toddler to share than to take? Or a better example: what did you have to be taught- how to lie, or the virtue of truthfulness? I can trust that no one reading this has ever been instructed on how to lie; we perfect the technique on our own; we do it on our own. Our parents and Character Counts have to teach us that there is "virtue" in telling the truth, even though it doesn't make sense as to why we would want to do so.

How do we know whether it is man's nature which is sinful -- or whether it is that man's nature is to be able to follow different masters (having free will, basically), and when this master is Satan, then man's nature results in being sinful?
Is man's nature sinful when his master is God?

Look at Adam. God was his Master. He sinned.

Look at it this way: God was Adam's Master, and yet he sinned. Then, afterwards, God's word tells us that no one seeks God, not even one. So no one even has the ability to seek God as his Master. It is by God's grace and that is why we have no reason to boast about any righteousness. Get right with God, before you can't!

 

[heron]

I have heard the word sin defined as "missing the mark," like an archer's shot...but have also heard that it's simply separating yourself from God. I'm not sure if that's a definition or something made up.

Look at sin as a change in relationship rather than a list of shouldn'ts. We push God away, like we sometimes push away our parents.

 

[sinner/SAVED]

I read a definition that said that sin was any act that caused a seperation between man and God or man and man. That covers a lot of stuff.

 

[NothingButTheBlood]

Proof of man's sinful nature is all around us but a good way to answer would be have you every broken just one of the ten commandments? Also, the first time you lied to your parents about something, even as a child (the I didn't do it) did someone teach you to lie or did you just do it?

 

[chava]

Sinful is anything that is not of God or within God's will. To understand God's will is to know the Bible and wisdom. So if they ever go against the Bible even when they don't know it's against it then they have a sinful nature. Therefore since no one is perfect (for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God Romans 3;23) then every man is sinful. That's how you can tell.

 

[Nightfire]

I just want to point out a misconception about sin. Usually when a believer says sin means "not being perfect", he has the Christian frame of reference. (Don't take this personally chava - at least you provided your reference!) In other words, he means "we can't obey God perfectly; we sin". But what do people hear who don't have that frame of reference, who live with a non-Christian paradigm? In order to interpret "not being perfect", they can only refer to their own experience.

And so for them, "sin" means: I don't score 100% in all tests; I don't win all competitions; I don't succeed at every enterprise - Instead of "I cannot please God without faith" (Heb.11:16) it becomes "I do not please the world". How paralyzed they must feel in comparison to such a standard (and how hypocritical Christians must look!). We're not supposed to try pleasing the world. Biblical perfection means following the trail of the law to Jesus, and into the next world (Matt 19:21).

I'm convinced this a major miscommunication, and it's not the only example - we need to be more "discourse aware"! More sensitive to those we are supposed to serve (not judge!). We need to build faith on firm ground, not destroy it. Rather be good than right. It's our inability to do God's will that is the best evidence of sin:

James 4:16-17
As it is, you boast and brag. All such boasting is evil. Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.​

 

[LittleLion]

novcncy,

The proof is in man's natural actions, before he is capable of making any philosophical choices at all. For example, does a person have to be taught to lie, steal, disobey, fight, be rebelioius, etc. etc.? Nope, people are doing those things long before they can reason out which master/religion/way of life they intend to follow.

I think you are wrong in that you are inexact.

First of all, disobeying, fighting, rebelling is not bad per se. If you disobey someone telling you to steal -- is that bad? If you rebel against someone offering you drugs -- is that bad?

Secondly, we are taught to lie -- we are taught by example. Our parents are not perfect, the people around us are not perfect. We pick up teachings from the environment, whatever they are, good or bad.

The fact that so many get away with theft and other crime teaches us that theft is not bad. This is teaching by example.


* * *


Rafael,

Take a look at the world of man and tell me the attributes of the flesh. War, hatred, envy, jealousy, selfishness, greed, poverty, pollution, disregard for life of all kinds.

Why should this be "the attributes of the flesh"? What proof do you have that these are "the attributes of the flesh"?

The kind of statement that you made above only signifies that you believe in the separation of the body from the mind. I do not subscribe to this separation.

Me are stiff-necked and proud all the way through it except for One man who was more than a man - Jesus. He was the only man to escape the natire of man:

Ro 5:17 The sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over us, but all who receive God’s wonderful, gracious gift of righteousness will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.

This only says that

1. Sin transcends the sinner, and that the child is living with the sins of the parent. Which doesn't automatically mean that the child has a sinful nature.
and
2. God provided a way out of this transcendece of sin, as it would not be just that the child has to pay for the sins of the parents.


* * *

butxifxnot,

Have you ever worked with young kids? Or better yet, have you ever raised kids? What do you have to teach them? To share or to steal? He might have learned to steal by seeing it one time, but how much harder is it to teach a toddler to share than to take? Or a better example: what did you have to be taught- how to lie, or the virtue of truthfulness? I can trust that no one reading this has ever been instructed on how to lie; we perfect the technique on our own; we do it on our own. Our parents and Character Counts have to teach us that there is "virtue" in telling the truth, even though it doesn't make sense as to why we would want to do so.

I think you are simplifying.

The environment *does* teach us to lie, steal, etc. -- by example, it shows what one can get away with, what seems to be better.
Normally, we strive to be better. What the contents of this "better" are, depends on the environment though.

In a certain environment, lying is deemed better than telling the truth, for example.

To learn otherwise is so hard because SO FEW PEOPLE are doing it, and it seems irrational to do something what what other people don't do -- as to do otherwise does not appear to give you any advantages.

Look at Adam. God was his Master. He sinned.

Has Adam *acknowledged* God to be his master? If Adam hasn't acknolwedged God to be his master, then you have no case against Adam.


* * *

NothingButTheBlood,

Proof of man's sinful nature is all around us but a good way to answer would be have you every broken just one of the ten commandments?

And? Breaking the commandment is a sin -- understood as a sin by me -- ONLY if I acknowledge the commandments to have authority over me.
For what you know, in accordance with Chinese tradition, any woman who is not wearing high-neck clothing is being indecent.

What sin is not universally definable with a list of shouldn't-s.

Also, the first time you lied to your parents about something, even as a child (the I didn't do it) did someone teach you to lie or did you just do it?

I believe my parents taught me so with their inconsitent behaviour.


* * *

chava,

Sinful is anything that is not of God or within God's will. To understand God's will is to know the Bible and wisdom. So if they ever go against the Bible even when they don't know it's against it then they have a sinful nature. Therefore since no one is perfect (for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God Romans 3;23) then every man is sinful. That's how you can tell.

But first you need to know whether the Bible truly is the word of God.
Is it?


* * *

Nightfire,

It's our inability to do God's will that is the best evidence of sin:

In order to do God's will, we first need to know what God's will is.


I do not believe humans are sinful by nature. If man's nature would truly be sinful, we could not tell right from wrong, good from bad, we could never recognize something as sin.

And secondly, why would God create beings that would inherently wish to be separated from Him? A tricky, whimsical God it would have to be.


Man is not sinful by nature. If he would be, he could never even begin to will to overcome sin.

 

[Radagast]

I know it:

• By the Bible
• By looking at my own heart
• By looking at every "utopian" society ever created

-- Radagast

PS: I really do recommend The Journey: A Spiritual Roadmap for Modern Pilgrims by Peter Kreeft

 

[novcncy]

novcncy,

I think you are wrong in that you are inexact.

First of all, disobeying, fighting, rebelling is not bad per se. If you disobey someone telling you to steal -- is that bad? If you rebel against someone offering you drugs -- is that bad?

Secondly, we are taught to lie -- we are taught by example. Our parents are not perfect, the people around us are not perfect. We pick up teachings from the environment, whatever they are, good or bad.

The fact that so many get away with theft and other crime teaches us that theft is not bad. This is teaching by example.

Little Lion,

I was referring to obedience in a proper format, such as children obeying their parents legitimate directions, such as, "Don't play in the street." By nature, children will do the exact thing they know they are not supposed to do. I am not implying that one should always do exactly as they are told, no matter what it is. In the proper establishments God has set up, such as family, government, etc., disobeying, rebelling,and the like ARE wrong. The fact that no one can completely avoid this wrongdoing at least one tiny little time in their life, is the proof of the sin nature. We could get into a rather lengthy discussion about the hierarchies involved, and how they relate to each other, but perhaps in a different thread?

I think we as humans are taught to be better liars (or any sin, for that matter), but not to lie. My two year old tells me she has to go potty, just so she can get out of bed at night. She doesn't really have to go, but she knows if she says she does, she can get out of bed for a moment or two. As we teach her to reason, she will soon discover that she needs to tell less blatant lies, and therfore, she will become a better liar, but I'm fairly sure that I didn't teach her to make things up. I'm not claiming to have been perfect in front of her, I'm sure I HAVE taught her far too many bad things, but I think you can see what I'm driving at.

Lastly, I would wholeheartedly agree with you, that the lack of justice in our society seems to reward wrongdoing. It's too bad, but that is how it is. But...it is a perception. The Bible talks pretty extensively on this, how the wicked seem to prosper, while the righteous simply suffer. God is taking notes though, and will square things away in His own time...but that too is another thread.

Have a great day!!

 

[Nightfire]

In order to do God's will, we first need to know what God's will is.

Quite correct. But knowing what someone wants is impossible if you're not in some relationship with them. To know what threatens that relationship - that knowledge of his will - He set laws in our hearts and as objective goals to measure ourselves by. By them, we can see who we are in fact listening to.

I do not believe humans are sinful by nature. If man's nature would truly be sinful, we could not tell right from wrong, good from bad, we could never recognize something as sin.

Of course, being created in God's image we have the ability to recognize His will, which He defines as good. But we all fall short of that standard, and as you said: we are often taught by people who don't acknowledge Him, don't care fore His will, or don't take justice seriously, and we learn their inconstencies. We are taught disorder and we are indoctrinated with it. The only reason we can still recognize sin despite all of this is that we never lose the ability to see the difference between consistency and inconsistency.

It's wrong and unbiblical to say "we are sinful by nature", if we don't define that nature ("the flesh") as its authors did. It's an easy but dogmatically fatal mistake to make. We have a sinful nature, a nature that was born from sin - but we also have the divine nature, being created in God's image, one that the devil desperately wants to suppress by twisting our healthy desires and senses into rebellion and excess against it. If he can do this without us noticing it, or confessing it, he effectively turned us against God, sin's only cure. And we just blissfully go on thinking we are only struggling with ourselves and others a little, and "this has nothing to do with God".

And secondly, why would God create beings that would inherently wish to be separated from Him? A tricky, whimsical God it would have to be.

He didn't. We inherently seek consistency, order, security and harmony. The problem is that we are first taught, and later let ourselves be taught, to seek it everywhere except with God. It's hard to let go of the authority that sin asserts over us, as I'm certain you know.

The alternative seems irrational as you say - and it should, because it requires us to stop seeking just our own advantage, but give them up to God. Our natural inclination is to want to stay in control, even when it's clear that we aren't. But if we keep a sin-tainted idea of God, it will be hard to trust that God is any different than all the experiences we've had so far.

Man is not sinful by nature. If he would be, he could never even begin to will to overcome sin.

If that was all man was, if that were all that was possible. And many people don't bother to correct the mistakes of their parents. They might recognize lies and deceit intellectually, but never make a conscious effort to turn away from it.

And if you don't do something about a wrong, you are in effect condoning it. You are participating in a sin you would otherwise not have been guilty of. Our instinct is not to be victims, but it's not long before our actions make it clear whether we are conquering sin by repenting from it, or trying to rebel against it by asserting that victimized self on others, and thereby reproducing it.

Man only stops being sinful when he actively breaks with the cycle of sin that started with Adam. If we don't want our children to bear the consequences of our sins, and remain under its curse. God presents us with the alternative to evil - being the only trustworthy standard of good, He is the only one qualified to guide us towards it - and He lifted the curse through the only form we could understand it, an unmistakably human form.

God set us a different example, and to the world it is an irrational one, "foolishness".

Romans 7:25
Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature [the flesh], God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.​

 

[LittleLion]

Alright, then I'll ask, for now (I'll come back later):

Is man essentially sinful, and that alone?

 

[Rafael]

Why should this be "the attributes of the flesh"? What proof do you have that these are "the attributes of the flesh"?

The kind of statement that you made above only signifies that you believe in the separation of the body from the mind. I do not subscribe to this separation.

The flesh and mind work together, but that isn't the point. The point is what are the results of man's works without God's leadership or as the Bible puts it, "works of the flesh" that are not the worlks that follow those led by His Spirit and displaying the fruits of His Spirit. With men, thirty thousand die every night from hunger, and 109 babies are aborted every minute which adds to 50 billion a year. Which work of the flesh would those come under that would allow us as a race to turn blind eyes to such things?

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Me are stiff-necked and proud all the way through it except for One man who was more than a man - Jesus. He was the only man to escape the natire of man:
Ro 5:17 The sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over us, but all who receive God’s wonderful, gracious gift of righteousness will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ

This only says that

1. Sin transcends the sinner, and that the child is living with the sins of the parent. Which doesn't automatically mean that the child has a sinful nature.
and
2. God provided a way out of this transcendece of sin, as it would not be just that the child has to pay for the sins of the parents.

No Adam sinned and we all die because of his sin and death even though it took 930 years for him to die, coming from the perfect body meant for eternity.
This is why Jesus was born of a virgin. Jesus did not inherit the sinful nature of Adam, but rather got His nature from God - thus being able to fulfill God's will for Him to be the lamb of God whose life would cover the sins of many and give them new life. Jesus did not have the sin nature, but stayed in communion with God right up to the point of death where He bore the total sin of mankind and cried out in the pain that is ours. The virgin birth is a key point in understanding who Jesus was and is.
As a race of beings, we are fallen into sin and death. The verse in Romans does say that we have inherited sin from Adam and do die because of it and that through Jesus we have eternal life again.
When I was young, I didn't have any sense of sin at all, but as I've grow older, I have seen the effects of sin and what they do. I can only imagine what they look like before a Holy God, as the Bible says He will not even look at sin. I suppose many can accuse God of being unjust, but who can give life - especially eternal life. If any part of this life feels good or seems pleasant in this body, one can only imagine how wonderful it would be in the eternal body Jesus said He has prepared for those that love Him.
God is Holy, and He will not change from that. We are to be transformed into His image, not the reverse, which is where many of the false religions have been born or even the false prophets that are among the so called Christian Churches today. Much of the Word of God has been watered down to suit people's desires. It either rings as truth with ones heart or it does not. There is no compromise with God. He is either God and worthy of following after or He is not. I choose to thank Him for the life He gave me, and the only one I can accuse is myself for not living a better life before His eyes that would be more pleasing to His sight - one of service to others, instead of what had been selfishly spent on my own desires that lead to death. Jesus truely has the Words of life, but the path is narrow and constricted. Few are willing to follow.

Ro 3:10 As the Scriptures say, "No one is good—not even one. 11 No one has real understanding; no one is seeking God. 12 All have turned away from God; all have gone wrong. No one does good, not even one." 13 "Their talk is foul, like the stench from an open grave. Their speech is filled with lies." "The poison of a deadly snake drips from their lips." 14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "They are quick to commit murder. 16 Wherever they go, destruction and misery follow them. 17 They do not know what true peace is." 18 "They have no fear of God to restrain them." 19 ¶ Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses and to bring the entire world into judgment before God.

Mt 7:13 "You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose the easy way. 14 But the gateway to life is small, and the road is narrow, and only a few ever find it.

 

[Nightfire]

Sin covers, perverts and destroys our God-breathed nature, it makes of us pure flesh instead of flesh and spirit - that which God created us to be, and that which only his Spirit can restore to its former glory. That restoration begins in this life, when we sign our names again under the covenant of God's promise, and it once again becomes our inheritance.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

 

[LittleLion]

novcncy,

I was referring to obedience in a proper format, such as children obeying their parents legitimate directions, such as, "Don't play in the street."

What is a "legitimate direction"? Keep in mind that parents give many directions, not all are legitimate, and by this, they undermine their own authority. No wonder children doubt them.

By nature, children will do the exact thing they know they are not supposed to do.

??
I don't think so.

I am not implying that one should always do exactly as they are told, no matter what it is. In the proper establishments God has set up, such as family, government, etc., disobeying, rebelling,and the like ARE wrong.

You seem to be forgetting that even though those proper establishments are set up by God, this doesn't mean they are perfect.

By being sinners themselves, parents make it impossible for their children to view them as perfect authorities. This is why children disobey.

I think we as humans are taught to be better liars (or any sin, for that matter), but not to lie.

I think we are most of all being taught to be unclear and indirect.

My two year old tells me she has to go potty, just so she can get out of bed at night. She doesn't really have to go, but she knows if she says she does, she can get out of bed for a moment or two. As we teach her to reason, she will soon discover that she needs to tell less blatant lies, and therfore, she will become a better liar, but I'm fairly sure that I didn't teach her to make things up. I'm not claiming to have been perfect in front of her, I'm sure I HAVE taught her far too many bad things, but I think you can see what I'm driving at.

I think your daughter wants attention, but she doesn't know how to say so, or she has been taught that it is bad if she wants attention. This is why she makes up an alternative strategy to get it.

Maybe it would be better to teach her to tell straight away what she wants. To identify her desires exactly -- like "I want you to read me a story now", or "I want to cuddle with you now", or "I want you to listen to me now".

The challenge will then be for you how to respond to these desires ...

Have a great day!!

You too!

* * *


Nightfire,

It's wrong and unbiblical to say "we are sinful by nature", if we don't define that nature ("the flesh") as its authors did. It's an easy but dogmatically fatal mistake to make. We have a sinful nature, a nature that was born from sin - but we also have the divine nature, being created in God's image, one that the devil desperately wants to suppress by twisting our healthy desires and senses into rebellion and excess against it. If he can do this without us noticing it, or confessing it, he effectively turned us against God, sin's only cure. And we just blissfully go on thinking we are only struggling with ourselves and others a little, and "this has nothing to do with God".

The sinful nature is born of sin, and this first comes by inheritance, not by our own doing?

And we just blissfully go on thinking we are only struggling with ourselves and others a little, and "this has nothing to do with God".

Explain.

The alternative seems irrational as you say - and it should, because it requires us to stop seeking just our own advantage, but give them up to God.

No, you misread me. We are seeking our *perceived* advantage -- what this is depends on our experience with the ignorant world, and God's intervention.

Our natural inclination is to want to stay in control, even when it's clear that we aren't.

I actually do not think so. I think humans inherently wish to submit to some authority.

The problem is that the very concept of authority is marred by our experince with earthly authorities -- often abusing their power or being ineffective. Seeing that not all criminals get caught is a mighty blow to our faith in the authority to the police and justice system, for example. We learn not to trust authorities in general.


* * *

Rafael,

The flesh and mind work together, but that isn't the point. The point is what are the results of man's works without God's leadership or as the Bible puts it, "works of the flesh" that are not the worlks that follow those led by His Spirit and displaying the fruits of His Spirit.

Alright.

With men, thirty thousand die every night from hunger, and 109 babies are aborted every minute which adds to 50 billion a year. Which work of the flesh would those come under that would allow us as a race to turn blind eyes to such things?

I think there are too many people on this planet.