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Proof For Pre-trib Rapture/ Part 2

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by rollinTHUNDER, Jan 13, 2003.

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  1. EveOfGrace

    EveOfGrace Member

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    Actually the feast of trumpets declares just that!  There are a series of trumptes blown, and then a space before the last. The series of blasts, once a day for a month prior to the last, are calls to repent and make atonement for sin. The last one means time is up! Maybe you should study that a little more.

    In REvelations, the same thing happens. The first 6 trumpets are blown at regular intervals. Perhaps once at the beginning of each year. EXCEPT for the last one. It is delayed until the END. Rev. 10:6 reveals why.  Thats why Jesus tells us be ready. After the 6th trumpet, there is a delay. Some will say, My Master has delayed His coming and slip into sin, fall asleep.  Once the 7th blows my brother, its TOO LATE!

    EveOfGrace 
     
  2. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hi EveOf Grace,
    Actually, I wasn't trying to do a study on the trumpets.  Just that those who try to base the timing of the rapture on them is just as big of an assumption as any other.  I don't buy it.  I believe the trumpet will sound though, but we won't hear it because I believe it will be blown in heaven.  I don't think I will hear it if it is an earthly trumpet, unless I go to Israel at the exact right time.  Fat chance, huh?? 
     
  3. EveOfGrace

    EveOfGrace Member

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    Well i tried to point out that even if you did try and time the rapture to the 7th trumpet, it cant be done. The last one is not in sequence to the others.

    You know you have a thought there, that i have wondered myself. If the trumpets are blown by an angel, all other angels, and anyone in heaven(like those asleep in Jesus) will hear it. Satan and his angels will also hear it. Being that you mentioned Roshashana they keep their feasts as rehearsals. Most of them, like passover have already occured, just as their feasts portray. The Day of Atonement is the last trumpet of the feast of trumpets.  Jews believe that the delay at the last trumpet is to fool satan, because he hears them.

    But then its also thought that the trumpets are blown, to let them know that God is present.  Like a call saying "I am here, Repent! observe yourselves that you may be found ready."  If that it the case, then those who are truly in Christ and possess the Holy Spirit will hear them, and be comforted.  Its the delay of the last one that throws everyone off. Thats why the angel comes at the time in sequence when it SHOULD be blown, to swear an oath that God has not forgotten, nor changed His mind, but that it is delayed so the time of promise can be fulfilled.

    If in fact they are NOT heard, why does Paul give mention of it? 

    Interesting i think.

    EveOfGRace    
     
  4. Jeffer

    Jeffer New Member

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    For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ (not the tribulation). . . -- Phil. 3:20-21
     
  5. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    I never thought that I would actually agree with you in something :)

    Though I don't like your particular analogy, it would be foolish to stake the rapture to such a singular and obscure reference (now, the various signs associated with the day of the Lord on the other hand, are unmistakable).
     
  6. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello Rize,
    Alright - We have a breakthrough!! 

    But it's okay if we disagree.  I still consider you a brother  :clap:
     
  7. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    I personally can't find any verse which separates the 7 vials of God's wrath from the tribulation. I believe God's wrath in the 7 vials is the 3rd and final stage of the tribulation, the 7 seals and 7 trumpets being the 1st and 2nd stages.

    Note that God's "wrath" against the wicked isn't separated from "tribulation" brought against them (Romans 2:8-9), that God's judgment against the wicked can bring "great tribulation" (Revelation 2:22), and that God's retribution against those who harm Christians can be called "tribulation" (2 Thessalonians 1:6).

    Note that we don't see the rapture itself or many of the elements of the rapture and 2nd coming such as the shout or the voice of the archangel (1 Thessalonians 4:16) or the gathering together of the saints by angels (Matthew 24:31) or the resurrection of all believers at the sounding of a trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16) or Jesus setting foot on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4) anywhere in Revelation, so it's not surprising that the rapture trumpet (Matthew 24:31) isn't seen in Revelation either.

    From the time he commits the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15; Daniel 11:31, 36), I believe the Antichrist is given 1,260 days to rule and persecute believers (compare Revelation 13:5), after which I believe the 7th trumpet will sound and vials 1-5 (Revelation 16) will be poured out as judgment on his kingdom over a period of 30 days, during which time we don't see him persecuting believers. On day 1,290 (Daniel 12:11), I believe the 6th vial will be poured out preparing the way of the kings of the east (Revelation 16:12). It may then take about 45 days for the Antichrist and all the kings of the earth to gather all of their armies to Armageddon (Revelation 16:14). I believe Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 16:15 are the same blessing, given on day 1,290 (Daniel 12:11), so that we must wait until day 1,335 (Daniel 12:12) for Christ to return to rapture us into the clouds to judge (Psalms 50:4-5, Mark 13:27) and marry us (Revelation 19:7), and then descend (Revelation 19:11-14) to destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8) at Armageddon (Revelation 19:20-21).
     
  8. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that someone who believes the rapture is after the tribulation isn't looking for the tribulation instead of Christ, just as a pregnant woman isn't looking for birth pangs instead of the birth of her child, but they know what must come first (1 Peter 4:12-13). We Christians must go through the reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13). Christ's coming to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, compare Matthew 24:29-31).
     
  9. EveOfGrace

    EveOfGrace Member

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    Stages, interesting choice of words there, to which i cannot disagree. Posttrib i do have to say that your rapture timing(which at first i was not completely understanding) are the most accurate according to scripture, by that i mean ALL scripture, which you do take into account instead of picking and choosing a few here and there.

    I am thinking at this point...can we determine what we mean by 'tribulation' here?  When i refer to it, i am counting the 7 year period only(the 70th week of Daniel), with the 1260 days (just as you posted) from the abomination of desolation, being the Great Tribulation. That would be the separation of tribulation and wrath. I do agree with you that we will still be here, unchanged(corruptible still) during the wrath, not appointed to it, but present as victorious over it.

       
    It IS clear among believers that the RAPTURE itself is misunderstood, perhaps just the word itself invokes an instantaneous coming/catching away 'moment' of invention. Which is just that, invention.  Take the 1Thess.4:16 that you referenced. Pauls words in context there are spoken to Christians as comfort. Not comfort of a catching away to escape anything, but that they have hope when it comes to those loved ones who have departed and are with Christ. He simply reminds them, that they WILL meet them again, in the end, WHEN Christ returns. Notice it sais, at the voice of the trumpet, Christ descends. There is a period, end of sentence. It goes on to say, And the dead in Christ rise first. What it doesnt say, is how long after He descends, does this happen. The trumpet sound is the point at which He descends, the mark in time of His return. It goes on in that chapter to tell us it will be 'as a thief' to those in darkness, not us, for we are not appointed to wrath, but to obtain salvation. And again, Paul reminds us we will ALL be together in the end, whether sleeping or wake(dead in Christ or alive). In no way does that particular scripture point at an instant coming/catching, but contrary. He comes as a thief to those in darkness only. We wait for His wrath to fall on those appointed to it.

    Same with the other trumpet/return scriptures. Gathering is what ensues AT His coming.  I have been through that already, and even mentioned above, the wicked are gathered quickly, as a thief upon them. We all know at this point, coming is parousa, presence of the Lord.  What His presence brings is sudden fear on the ungodly, who are gathered and judged according to thier deeds, and hope for believers, who are also gathered and judged according to their deeds. To the unrighteous, wrath.  To the righteous, salvation.

    If we look at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, which is the third woe(and comes quickly) the time of wrath and judgement arrives. Rev. 11:18.  Jesus arrives on the scene. The trumpet ushers in His presence, not an instaneous 'cathing away', which has come to commonly and mistakenly be known as the 'rapture'.

    Note directly before the bowls are poured,(Rev.15) and the sign of the angels in heaven(having the vials) are seen, there is a sea of glass, wherein stands those who have the victory.  They are NOT yet raptured, or changed as in 1Cor.15:52, because in verse 8, no one is able to enter the temple till they are complete.  What then is the sea of glass where these victors are?  An ark of sorts?  A protective state of wearing garments that cover? (Rev.16:15).  A gatherring together before the resurrection?  

    Posttrib i totally agree with you that the actual moment of change into incorruption, the marriage, will surely come ONLY after the wrath is poured out upon the wicked, which we witness and rejoice over.  I cannot see Jesus catching us away from the vengeance He Himself brings FOR us.   Perhaps what disagreement there was, rested only in the misconception that the trumpet catches us away, instead of what it DOES do, brings Jesus back.

    EveOfGrace

       
     
  10. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hello EveOfGrace,
    I fail to see where any of this has anything to do with this thread.  I don't even remember mentioning anything at all about Revelations in this thread.  I realize that some people only like to begin reading threads on the back pages, but it is causing this thread to get way off of it's original topic.  This thread was designed to show what Noah's ark actually represents. 
     
  11. EveOfGrace

    EveOfGrace Member

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     Gee rollin thunder, am sorry. If you look closer, i did say ARK in that post. Check it out, and WHERE and WHEN its placed. And yes you actually did mention revelations, and tons of other scripture, like Daniel, as i too did.  Your Noahs ark 'proof' is very probable as far as being a protective means of escaping wrath, but as far as being the temple? Impossible, as i also just posted.

    I did go back to the very beginning of the thread and read EVERY SINGLE one, in order, days ago by the way. Perhaps if my post does not agree with your placement of the ark and its timing as your orignal 'proof' it would seem as though it is off the subject. 

    So ok, a couple points from your proof:

      
    This is totally ludicrous. Because some Christians cannot fly, but are still clean, they wont make it?  God purposefully made some that can fly away and some that cant and just because of that they dont get resurrected with the dead? Didnt it just say BOTH kind of animals made it in the ark? 

    Noah didnt have to do much work in gathering the animals because they were able to come to him. And also, as you said, Noah represents Christ, so couldnt that be the EXACT gatherring by angels from the 4 winds? 

    Our place of refuge wont be a large boat but rather Gods Holy Mountain and all vessels will be placed in the Temple. Just in case you missed it in my last post, that to you had no point, here it is again: The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and NO ONE was able to enter the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed. Rev. 15:8.  That IS relevent to your ark representation. 

    EveOfGrace 
     
  12. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Many Christians believe the tribulation will last 7 years. But I don't believe the Bible itself says this, but that Daniel 9:27 refers only to a 7-year peace treaty. I believe Daniel 11:23 refers to this same treaty, and that the great Middle East war of Daniel 11:13-19 has to happen before this treaty is signed.

    About 3 years before the treaty, I expect there will be a magnificent predecessor to the Antichrist who will conquer and unite the Middle East (Daniel 11:13-19) who could come from Iraq or Syria. After he suddenly dies or disappears, his weak successor (Daniel 11:20) will be followed by the Antichrist himself, who will take control stealthily (Daniel 11:21) and make a peace treaty under which he will consolidate his power (Daniel 11:23-24).

    I believe most Christians will have been certain that the magnificent predecessor to the Antichrist was the Antichrist himself, so that when he suddenly disappears from the scene they will be left bewildered and more easily open to deception.

    The war of the magnificent predecessor (Daniel 11:13-19) and its aftermath of famines and epidemics (Revelation 6:4-8) may be "the beginning of sorrows" spoken of by Christ (Matthew 24:7-8), after which comes great deceptions and apostasy (Matthew 24:11-12), all leading up to the rising up of the Antichrist and the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4).

    I personally don't believe that the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19) is the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52), but that the rapture trumpet will sound "after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), after the 7 vials are finished. I don't believe that Revelation shows Jesus coming at the 7th trumpet.

    I believe the "sea of glass" referenced in Revelation 15:2 is in the 3rd heaven (Revelation 4:6), and could be outside the temple (Revelation 15:8).

    I believe "them that had gotten the victory [nikao] over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name" (Revelation 15:2) are those who were faithful unto death under the persecution by the Antichrist (Revelation 14:11-13). Compare: "They overcame [nikao] him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death" (Revelation 12:11).
     
  13. EveOfGrace

    EveOfGrace Member

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    So what exactly are you saying posttrib?  That the tribulation is not necessarily just the 70th week, but also including the pre-time you refer to(and Daniel)?  I do know that the only real tribulation as far as being actually spoken of(by Jesus, Matt.24:15) as a time of this persecution/abomination is called great tribulation, and refers to Daniels account, which does give a time period(1290 days). It doesnt say 'the tribulation' but simply tribulation. You are saying then, the 7 year tribulation that Christians DO profess is really just assumption based on the 70th week alone?  Hmm. We do limit (and possibly deceive) by assuming ANYTHING. 

     
     It has been stated that this is not relevant to this thread BUT, one last time. There is more than enough evidence to determine it as the last one sounded before the earths redemption.  It is written that the 7th trumpet: is clearly blown by the angel when the 'mystery of God is finished', brings the 3rd woe that comes quickly, announces the time of judgement and reward, and opens the temple of God to reveal the ark of the covenant. It is not written that there are any after that one. I must refrain from assumption.

      
     That IS a fact, since we know it cannot be inside it.

     
    Thank you for that.  I did not know the same word (nikao) was used in those places. cool. So of course i looked it up. Its root word is nike:conquest ie the means of success. Ok, let me ask you something there. In one of my bibles there is a reference for (mingled with fire). It references Matt.3:11, which is the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire. The other (nikao) scriptures refer to martyrs but this one has them standing with the Holy Spirit. The(NKJV) sais, HAVE the victory rather than HAD GOTTEN. Those of Rev.12:11, get victory(nikao)[the means of] BY the blood, and their testimony. Those of 15:2 HAVE victory(nikao) BY the fire(Holy Spirit). what say ye?

    EveOfGrace        
     
  14. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    I stand corrected.  I did briefly mention Rev. 3:10, but only as a side note.  Also, I never implied that Noah's ark was the Temple.  I showed how it was a shadow or a copy of the chambers (rooms) of the Temple, but if you can't see it, that's fine too.  They say you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.  How true, how true!!
     
  15. EveOfGrace

    EveOfGrace Member

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    Did you not say "so our place of refuge won't be a large boat, but rather God's Holy Mountain and all vessels will be placed in the Temple."?? I am certain you did.  What exactly then ARE you implying by that statement?  Is there anywhere written of this dwelling of the Church in the heavenly Temple?  If you would like a horse to drink, the water must be clear.

     
     
  16. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    Hi EveOfGrace,
    I see what your getting at.  I wasn't talking about the chambers (rooms) here.  This was a separate thought.  I guess I should try to break it down for you.

    Do you remember that part in the Lord's prayer, where He said, "Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven?"  Well today, we see the Jews are gathering and preparing the vessels for use in the third Temple.  While they are doing this, God is gathering and preparing His vessels for the heavenly Temple.  His good and faithful servants are those vessels.  He is building the Temple with living stones, of which, Jesus is the Cornerstone and foundation.

    I also used another different example of the Lord's prayer in the end of my thread, "THE PARABLE OF THE SOWER."  The things on earth are like cheap copies of things in heaven.  Things on earth are passing away, but heavenly things are eternal.  It's amazing how many people in this world are foolish enough to choose the things of this world over the eternal things of heaven.  That's why Jesus commanded us not to love the world or anything in it, but sadly, His words are falling on mostly deaf ears.   Cheers!!! 
     
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