Prominent Christian Scientists in History

Dave Ellis · Jun 27, 2012

toLiJC said:
i meant just that such theories can bring some believers to the thought that there may be no God or that God is exiguous and so the same to go astray from the right faith - this is it

You're still wrong. The Theory of Evolution has nothing to do with God at all. Many people still believe in God and fully accept Evolution, Francis Collins is a great example of that.

If you're referring to how Evolution debunks the Genesis story, then you may have a point. The only logical question to ask is why is your "divinely inspired" holy book laughably wrong on how diversity of life came to be?

However, since Evolution is proven to have occurred, and has been observed to still be occurring, then something that argues against it's existence like creationism can not be the "right faith"... It is demonstrably wrong.

That being said, contradictions of Genesis shouldn't bother Christians that much anyway. Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 openly contradict each other, and the Christians haven't had a problem with that for over 2,000 years!

Skavau · Jun 27, 2012

Elioenai26 said:
I have written this by way of explaining that when a Christian is asked to give empirical evidence to justify their belief, the Christian will always and forever respond by simply saying: "It is not necessary." It is not necessary for a child of God to be able to sit down and go through the five arguments for the existence of God. It is not necessary for a child of God to be able to explain every difficult passage in the Bible away and to be able to know every logical response to every objection raised to him. It is not necessary for him or her to be able to explain why God decided to make the world the way He did. It is not necessary for them to be able to explain the exact nature of hell. All of these things do not affect the Christians salvation and status as a child of God and heir of Christ. Nor does having these answers or not having them affect one who is truly seeking to know God. Why? Because ultimately it is God who draws a person unto Himself and reveals Himself to a person. No amount of striving or self effort or determination can bridge that infinite gap.

You've just argued that God is directly responsible for choosing those who are saved and de facto choosing those who go to hell. If the conversion of people to Christianity require God to reveal himself then ultimately the ball is squarely in his court.

Good work.

toLiJC · Jun 27, 2012

Dave Ellis said:
You're still wrong. The Theory of Evolution has nothing to do with God at all. Many people still believe in God and fully accept Evolution, Francis Collins is a great example of that.

If you're referring to how Evolution debunks the Genesis story, then you may have a point. The only logical question to ask is why is your "divinely inspired" holy book laughably wrong on how diversity of life came to be?

However, since Evolution is proven to have occurred, and has been observed to still be occurring, then something that argues against it's existence like creationism can not be the "right faith"... It is demonstrably wrong.

That being said, contradictions of Genesis shouldn't bother Christians that much anyway. Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 openly contradict each other, and the Christians haven't had a problem with that for over 2,000 years!

it is written in the Bible that namely God made the animals as a help meet of the human being, and that this happened in one day

Genesis 1:26-31 "God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it:..... And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.",

Genesis 2:18-20 "And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field;"

all material evidence for evolution(the fossils, etc.) were materialized on the part of devil and its angels i.e. clerics, here's how it happened:

"You are to be the custodian of a certain silver amulet. I will not give it to you today; to demonstrate the truth in my words, the talisman shall materialize in your hands tomorrow as you meditate." AY 2,

"The next evening, as I sat with folded hands in meditation, a silver amulet materialized between my palms, even as the sadhu had promised." AY 2,

"My guru, awake in God, knew this world to be nothing but an objectivized dream of the Creator. Because he was completely aware of his unity with the Divine Dreamer, Lahiri Mahasaya could materialize or dematerialize or make any change he wished in the cosmic vision." AY 12,

"'Come, brother,' my companion said. 'The master awaits you.' "He led the way through the forest. The somber night was suddenly lit by a steady luminosity in the distance. "'Can that be the sunrise?' I inquired. 'Surely the whole night has not passed?' "'The hour is midnight.' My guide laughed softly. 'Yonder light is the glow of a golden palace, materialized here tonight by the peerless Babaji. In the dim past, you once expressed a desire to enjoy the beauties of a palace." AY 34,

"Feast your eyes; enjoy the artistic splendors of this palace, for it has been brought into being solely in your honor.' My guide smiled sympathetically as I uttered a few ejaculations of wonderment. "'Brother,' I said, 'the beauty of this structure surpasses the bounds of human imagination. Please tell me the mystery of its origin.' "'I will gladly enlighten you.' My companion's dark eyes sparkled with wisdom. 'In reality there is nothing inexplicable about this materialization. The whole cosmos is a materialized thought of the Creator." AY 34,

"Being one with the infinite all-accomplishing Will, Babaji can summon the elemental atoms to combine and manifest themselves in any form. This golden palace, instantaneously created, is real, even as this earth is real. Babaji created this palatial mansion out of his mind and is holding its atoms together by the power of his will, even as God created this earth and is maintaining it intact.' He added, 'When this structure has served its purpose, Babaji will dematerialize it.'" AY 34

the clerics of (the) "darkness" can materialize many delusions/deceptions

2 Thessalonians 2:5-12 "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity(ie the spiritual/religious iniquity) doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish(ie in the unrighteous clerics/worshipers); because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they(ie that the clerics/worshipers) all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Blessings

KCfromNC · Jun 27, 2012

Elioenai26 said:
It is simply to show that there are many intellectuals who see that there is evidence to accept Christianity as more than just a superstitious, antiquated fear based form of religion.

This conclusion doesn't follow. Just because a person is a scientist doesn't mean that every belief they have is a result of rigorous and unbiased scientific evaluation of the evidence.

KCfromNC · Jun 27, 2012

Elioenai26 said:
List of Christian thinkers in science - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why are computer programmers and mathematicians included in a list of Christians who are scientists?

Anyway, can you summarize the religious beliefs that all of these thinkers have in common? Looking through them, they don't all seem to come from the same denomination. And you've got Trinitarians, Unitarians, Catholics, Orthodox, lots of brands of Protestants and even some believers in heresies no modern church accepts. So what version of Christianity are we supposed to believe is related to science based on this list? Seems like you'd get a very watered down "there's some sort of Christian god, maybe, even if it's just a metaphor" if you really beleived all of these guys' beliefs followed the scientific evidence. Seems like a very weak case to me.

KCfromNC · Jun 27, 2012

toLiJC said:
i meant just that such theories can bring some believers to the thought that there may be no God or that God is exiguous and so the same to go astray from the right faith - this is it

The fact that you're worried that reality might show that your faith is wrong should be a huge flashing neon sign telling you something very important.

Elioenai26 · Jun 27, 2012

Dave Ellis said:
Thanks for the response.... however I must point out none of that addresses science.

If you require faith, that means it can't be empirically proven. The concept of faith is the exact opposite of science.

Thank you Mr. Ellis for taking the time to read my post. I know it was sort of long and I thank you for reading it.

You are correct, this post does not address science directly. My intention was chiefly to lay out in a clear fashion based on scripture how Christians see science and their faith in relation to one another. How science takes us to a point and from that point, our faith takes us from there to understanding that which is not subject to scientific observation.

toLiJC · Jun 27, 2012

KCfromNC said:
The fact that you're worried that reality might show that your faith is wrong should be a huge flashing neon sign telling you something very important.

we already testified in our previous reply(#23) about the produced on the part of beast's kingdom(666) "reality", and here we can inset that the evil is not right(-eous) i.e. when people/souls suffer or hurt, but if the striving is/are concentrated for the salvation to humans, then there is righteousness, because any other direction is not the salvation itself i.e. at least there is a loss of the effectiveness/efficiency as regards the salvation, for example, one thing is when 100% of the humankind are completely saved, while another is when the saved are only 10%, and namely this is the subject in the Bible, while the evolution and the law of the jungle are not such subject, but there the interest(-ing) is different - something which is not the overall salvation itself, so, such reality which is not good and eternal for all humans is not more profitable than the reality of God's Kingdom although secret/unprecedented

Matthew 13:35 "That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.",

1 Corinthians 1:27-28 "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea(ie to confound the sublime and honorable (things)), and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:"

Elioenai26 · Jun 27, 2012

KCfromNC said:
This conclusion doesn't follow. Just because a person is a scientist doesn't mean that every belief they have is a result of rigorous and unbiased scientific evaluation of the evidence.

Thanks for adding to this discussion. I may be able to explain in more detail my aim in providing this list of notable intellectuals. The majority of them fall under what is referred to as orthodox Christianity. This simply means that they believe Jesus of Nazareth who is the Christ is the Messiah whose vicarious death and resurrection secured for them salvation from their sins and in turn guarantees them eternal life with God.

Some may be in various denominations, however that is immaterial to the reason why I have referred to them. I have referenced them simply to prove that there are scientists who do not see their faith as being contradictory to science. That's all.

I pray this clears away any confusion.

Dave Ellis · Jun 27, 2012

toLiJC said:
it is written in the Bible that namely God made the animals as a help meet of the human being, and that this happened in one day

Genesis 1:26-31 "God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it:..... And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.",

Genesis 2:18-20 "And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field;"

all material evidence for evolution(the fossils, etc.) were materialized on the part of devil and its angels i.e. clerics, here's how it happened:

"You are to be the custodian of a certain silver amulet. I will not give it to you today; to demonstrate the truth in my words, the talisman shall materialize in your hands tomorrow as you meditate." AY 2,

"The next evening, as I sat with folded hands in meditation, a silver amulet materialized between my palms, even as the sadhu had promised." AY 2,

"My guru, awake in God, knew this world to be nothing but an objectivized dream of the Creator. Because he was completely aware of his unity with the Divine Dreamer, Lahiri Mahasaya could materialize or dematerialize or make any change he wished in the cosmic vision." AY 12,

"'Come, brother,' my companion said. 'The master awaits you.' "He led the way through the forest. The somber night was suddenly lit by a steady luminosity in the distance. "'Can that be the sunrise?' I inquired. 'Surely the whole night has not passed?' "'The hour is midnight.' My guide laughed softly. 'Yonder light is the glow of a golden palace, materialized here tonight by the peerless Babaji. In the dim past, you once expressed a desire to enjoy the beauties of a palace." AY 34,

"Feast your eyes; enjoy the artistic splendors of this palace, for it has been brought into being solely in your honor.' My guide smiled sympathetically as I uttered a few ejaculations of wonderment. "'Brother,' I said, 'the beauty of this structure surpasses the bounds of human imagination. Please tell me the mystery of its origin.' "'I will gladly enlighten you.' My companion's dark eyes sparkled with wisdom. 'In reality there is nothing inexplicable about this materialization. The whole cosmos is a materialized thought of the Creator." AY 34,

"Being one with the infinite all-accomplishing Will, Babaji can summon the elemental atoms to combine and manifest themselves in any form. This golden palace, instantaneously created, is real, even as this earth is real. Babaji created this palatial mansion out of his mind and is holding its atoms together by the power of his will, even as God created this earth and is maintaining it intact.' He added, 'When this structure has served its purpose, Babaji will dematerialize it.'" AY 34

the clerics of (the) "darkness" can materialize many delusions/deceptions

2 Thessalonians 2:5-12 "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity(ie the spiritual/religious iniquity) doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish(ie in the unrighteous clerics/worshipers); because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they(ie that the clerics/worshipers) all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Blessings

Now please demonstrate that any quote you listed there has any basis in truth, and aren't just the writings of an ancient people who had no idea what they were talking about.

And even if you are right, and fossils were the work of some evil spirit / Satan / etc, you haven't even addressed that (in the words of Francis Collins) the Genetic (DNA) evidence confirms evolution and common descent by itself... The fossil record is just further supporting evidence.

Are you suggesting that Satan altered the genetic code of every living thing in history just to trick us into believing Evolution?

quatona · Jun 27, 2012

Elioenai26 said:
I have referenced them simply to prove that there are scientists who do not see their faith as being contradictory to science. That's all.

Has this ever been in dispute?

toLiJC · Jun 27, 2012

Dave Ellis said:
Now please demonstrate that any quote you listed there has any basis in truth, and aren't just the writings of an ancient people who had no idea what they were talking about.

And even if you are right, and fossils were the work of some evil spirit / Satan / etc, you haven't even addressed that (in the words of Francis Collins) the Genetic (DNA) evidence confirms evolution and common descent by itself... The fossil record is just further supporting evidence.

Are you suggesting that Satan altered the genetic code of every living thing in history just to trick us into believing Evolution?

what is truth?!, if some human be hurt, whether this would be a good thing when is bad?!, and in the same way, how it's possible such a bad thing to be a truth when is a lie?!, because if someone promises you that everything will be alright with you, but after it hurt you contrary to the promise, will this be a good thing for you or a truth?!, so, the truth is when all is okay with the people/souls according to the Will/Plan of God which is the most perfectly good, but the death, diseases, afflictions and the evils at all are not good things and for this reason there are no such things in the Plan of God

and what is the genetic code(dna)?!, isn't it just a universal biological code of God with which He made all living beings?!, that's why many dna segments of different living creatures are similar or even identical, because the genetic code is universal, not because there is a biological evolution, and as regards the fossils of prehistoric creatures, they surely are a part of the conspiracy of the "darkness"/devil, because there has never been more than 5-6 millennia counted from the beginning of this eternity, and see how the used word in such cases even on the part of scientists is "pre-historic"

Blessings

Elioenai26 · Jun 27, 2012

Gadarene said:
It's interesting how Paul talks about spirit and power, and he's not merely talking about sacrifices, he's talking about miracles and charisma.

As I said elsewhere, if Christians could actually perform such then they would be somewhat more credible. But they can't so all they can do is talk.

Thanks again Mr. Gadarene for interacting here in this thread. I hope I can supply you with a couple of quick things with regards to your remarks.

First, I would like to affirmatively state that Christians do perform miracles by the Holy Spirit today. Exorcisms, healings, etc. etc. are being accomplished by many Christians, predominantly in third world countries where the work of God is received by people who are willing and receptive of such manifestations. I have personally been involved in the case of the former where demonic spirits have been cast out of a person by the power of God.

You made mention that Christians can't perform miracles or be used to manifest the various gifts of the Holy Spirit. But, surely you have'nt been in every place where Christians are being used by God at every moment have you?

Gadarene said:
I always find this ironic coming from an adherent of someone like Craig, whose entire rationale for belief is grounded in sheer ivory tower concepts.

I suspect most of the people easily impressed by him don't have the foggiest clue about cosmology or Molinism or aseity or half the things he talks about.

I have no where in this post mentioned Dr. William Lane Craig. Nor do I consider myself one of his adherents (not sure what you mean by that). I am a disciple of Jesus Christ, as I believe he is as well. I have used some of his research and writings to aid in various apologetic works I have undertaken, but he is not the subject of this post.

I am impressed not in him, but in how God works through him to defend The Faith. If one were to ask Mr. Craig personally, im sure he would say the same.

Gadarene said:
Yes, which is why it is rather puzzling God should elect to reveal himself in some obscure Roman backwater. But do go on.

Im actually very glad that you said this. It was something that Christopher Hitchens used in at least one of his debates. This shall give me the opportunity to show why Christ came at exactly the perfect time in history. We read in the letter that the Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians in Galatia that:

When the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law...

This fullness of time can be seen in the characteristics of the world at that time:

Pervasive Peace of Rome
Extensive Roman Roads
Universality of Greek Language
Logos of Greek Philosophy
Decline of Roman Religion & Greek Mythology
Wide influence of the Jewish Synagogues

All of these together had a cumulative effect of preparing the way for the coming of the Messiah. While none of them individually would have created the fullness of time for Christ to come, together they set the stage for Christ to come at the most appropriate time.
So there was a politicalgeographicallinguisticphilosophicalculturaland religious preparation for the coming of Christ.

The Pax Romana and the extensive Roman road system facilitated the spread of the gosepl from Rome. We know that the Apostle Paul ended up being beheaded there. His work of course, lived on after him. The wide range of use of the Greek language and the inquisitiveness of the Greeks facilitated the spread of the Gospel via written and verbal forms of communication. At the same time there was a pervading disillusionment among many that had grown weary of the compulsory emperor worship and the Greek pantheon of gods. And of course you have the solid, religious community of Jews throughout the Roman empire that would be used as a forum for much dialogue and debate about Christianity.

Gadarene said:
It's funny how you Christians will deride intelligence and reason like mad when it suits you - but show a flim-flam merchant like Craig trying to use the same tools and you're all over him.

I do not deride intelligence or reason. In fact, I favor them. I love to study and reason and use logic whenever it is expedient for me to do so. I know other Christians personally who are the same. I also, don't see how calling Mr. Craig a flim-flam merchant is going to help any of us here discuss the topic of discussion.

Gadarene said:
So if Christians as you claim can't be bothered to even try, then how exactly is God to get his message across?

Christ gets His message across through the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives His people like me and the other Christians here. It is through the power of the Holy Spirt in meekness and love, not in cunning words or clever arguments, that people are brought to Christ. I elaborated on this earlier.

Gadarene said:
I'm pretty sure I cared a darn sight more about the unsaved when I was a Christian to make more of an effort than anyone spewing this smug tripe appears to be.

It is my main aim to reach those who are honestly searching for answers from the Christian perspective. I am compelled to do so in love, because there were those who did it for me when I was searching.

Gadarene · Jun 27, 2012

Elioenai26 said:
First, I would like to affirmatively state that Christians do perform miracles by the Holy Spirit today. Exorcisms, healings, etc. etc. are being accomplished by many Christians, predominantly in third world countries where the work of God is received by people who are willing and receptive of such manifestations. I have personally been involved in the case of the former where demonic spirits have been cast out of a person by the power of God.

Evidence please.

Maybe one will stand up to scrutiny this time.

Even then, it's funny how they seem to occur in one of the least observed parts and most superstitious parts of the world.

You made mention that Christians can't perform miracles or be used to manifest the various gifts of the Holy Spirit. But, surely you have'nt been in every place where Christians are being used by God at every moment have you?

I have no need to be everywhere. I'd settle for one verifiable example.

(I'm sure you've heard of the site Why Can't God Heal Amputees?)

Actual evidence beyond mere I-said-so, and a occurrence that isn't simply God hiding in statistical noise like he usually does (cancer "miraculously" entering remission, minor injuries naturally improving, etc).

I have no where in this post mentioned Dr. William Lane Craig. Nor do I consider myself one of his adherents (not sure what you mean by that). I am a disciple of Jesus Christ, as I believe he is as well. I have used some of his research and writings to aid in various apologetic works I have undertaken, but he is not the subject of this post.

Well spotted. The point is that the best theological arguments for god come from a bunch of highly-educated academics. And I doubt that those in the pews repeating them really grasp them. So it's somewhat at odds with the notion that the credibility of belief in God is equitable - the best arguments are coming from a very educated source, and require some level of education to grasp.

In addition, if the level of empirical evidence for God is low, and one is naturally empirically inclined, presumably that is due to God's influence. The game is already rigged from the beginning by your god, due to where one is born, what opportunities one has. To call the search for salvation equitable is laughable.

Im actually very glad that you said this. It was something that Christopher Hitchens used in at least one of his debates. This shall give me the opportunity to show why Christ came at exactly the perfect time in history. We read in the letter that the Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians in Galatia that:

When the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law...

This fullness of time can be seen in the characteristics of the world at that time:

Pervasive Peace of Rome
Extensive Roman Roads
Universality of Greek Language
Logos of Greek Philosophy
Decline of Roman Religion & Greek Mythology
Wide influence of the Jewish Synagogues

All of these together had a cumulative effect of preparing the way for the coming of the Messiah. While none of them individually would have created the fullness of time for Christ to come, together they set the stage for Christ to come at the most appropriate time.
So there was a politicalgeographicallinguisticphilosophicalculturaland religious preparation for the coming of Christ.

The Pax Romana and the extensive Roman road system facilitated the spread of the gosepl from Rome. We know that the Apostle Paul ended up being beheaded there. His work of course, lived on after him. The wide range of use of the Greek language and the inquisitiveness of the Greeks facilitated the spread of the Gospel via written and verbal forms of communication. At the same time there was a pervading disillusionment among many that had grown weary of the compulsory emperor worship and the Greek pantheon of gods. And of course you have the solid, religious community of Jews throughout the Roman empire that would be used as a forum for much dialogue and debate about Christianity.

Why is any of this particularly amazing? The Roman world was still effectively cut off from about 50% of the planet. What about the people who weren't part of the Roman Empire?

Let me guess, the old they-are-without-excuse excuse?

Why that age, why not a modern one? One where the standards of evidence are thus higher, producing a better legacy for those coming thereafter, as the quality of proof would be far higher than the hearsay of the Roman era texts?

I do not deride intelligence or reason. In fact, I favor them. I love to study and reason and use logic whenever it is expedient for me to do so.

Ha! My point exactly. Very telling indeed.

I know other Christians personally who are the same. I also, don't see how calling Mr. Craig a flim-flam merchant is going to help any of us here discuss the topic of discussion.

Well, pointing out that a flim-flam merchant is a flim-flam merchant means we won't waste more time discussing his flim-flam, now will it?

Christ gets His message across through the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives His people like me and the other Christians here. It is through the power of the Holy Spirt in meekness and love, not in cunning words or clever arguments, that people are brought to Christ. I elaborated on this earlier.

Good thing you're relying on something other than cunning words and clever arguments.

It is my main aim to reach those who are honestly searching for answers from the Christian perspective. I am compelled to do so in love, because there were those who did it for me when I was searching.

Again, I've already said what I think of someone like you who misrepresents atheism and atheists as regularly you do and yet claims to be speaking in "love".

Elioenai26 · Jun 27, 2012

Gadarene said:
Evidence please.

Maybe one will stand up to scrutiny this time.

Even then, it's funny how they seem to occur in one of the least observed parts and most superstitious parts of the world.

I have no need to be everywhere. I'd settle for one verifiable example.

(I'm sure you've heard of the site Why Can't God Heal Amputees?)

Actual evidence beyond mere I-said-so, and a occurrence that isn't simply God hiding in statistical noise like he usually does (cancer "miraculously" entering remission, minor injuries naturally improving, etc).

Well spotted. The point is that the best theological arguments for god come from a bunch of highly-educated academics. And I doubt that those in the pews repeating them really grasp them. So it's somewhat at odds with the notion that the credibility of belief in God is equitable - the best arguments are coming from a very educated source, and require some level of education to grasp.

In addition, if the level of empirical evidence for God is low, and one is naturally empirically inclined, presumably that is due to God's influence. The game is already rigged from the beginning by your god, due to where one is born, what opportunities one has. To call the search for salvation equitable is laughable.

Why is any of this particularly amazing? The Roman world was still effectively cut off from about 50% of the planet. What about the people who weren't part of the Roman Empire?

Let me guess, the old they-are-without-excuse excuse?

Why that age, why not a modern one? One where the standards of evidence are thus higher, producing a better legacy for those coming thereafter, as the quality of proof would be far higher than the hearsay of the Roman era texts?
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Ha! My point exactly. Very telling indeed.

Well, pointing out that a flim-flam merchant is a flim-flam merchant means we won't waste more time discussing his flim-flam, now will it?

Good thing you're relying on something other than cunning words and clever arguments.

Again, I've already said what I think of someone like you who misrepresents atheism and atheists as regularly you do and yet claims to be speaking in "love".

I have taken the time to honestly and earnestly respond and engage you in fruitful discussion. And indeed it has been fruitful for me and for those who are observing what is being posted here. I know you are not really interested in what I or any Christian has to say. And that is why I really do not understand why you are posting here in these forums.

Be that as it may, I wish you well. If I have spoken evil of you in any way, then bear witness to the evil. If not, then I thank you for your time in talking with me.

Gadarene · Jun 27, 2012

Elioenai26 said:
I have taken the time to honestly and earnestly respond and engage you in fruitful discussion. And indeed it has been fruitful for me and for those who are observing what is being posted here. I know you are not really interested in what I or any Christian has to say. And that is why I really do not understand why you are posting here in these forums.

Which is why I asked for evidence of miracles, and provided counterarguments for you to respond to.

Oh, wait.

Can you respond to these points, or can't you? Can you provide evidence of miracles, or can't you?

I am willing to listen, but you're not bringing anything to the table that I haven't heard and logically eviscerated a dozen times before already. Distinguish yourself. Make an actual case that holds up.

And frankly, this is just one more presumption you've made utterly unapologetically about the motives of the atheists you're in discussion with. You have done this since your first post here, and despite being called on it multiple times you have not once even seen fit to apologise to the atheists of this board for causing offence. So I am not particularly inclined to give your claims any more than a cursory examination nor give your "honesty" nor your faux-politeness much credence given that you have seen fit to smear atheists at every opportunity. (It's almost like the 9th is a recommendation rather than a commandment for Christians these days.)

But hey, if appealing to my tone means you get to dodge the question while frantically trying to claim the moral high ground, that's all that matters, right?

So as I asked - do you have what it takes to back these up, or not? As I said I'm not expecting wonders but maybe the stars are in the right alignment and you will have a decent argument where other Christian apologists have failed.

Elioenai26 · Jun 27, 2012

Gadarene said:
Which is why I asked for evidence of miracles, and provided counterarguments for you to respond to.

Oh, wait.

Can you respond to these points, or can't you? Can you provide evidence of miracles, or can't you?

I am willing to listen, but you're not bringing anything to the table that I haven't heard and logically eviscerated a dozen times before already. Distinguish yourself. Make an actual case that holds up.

And frankly, this is just one more presumption you've made utterly unapologetically about the motives of the atheists you're in discussion with. You have done this since your first post here, and despite being called on it multiple times you have not once even seen fit to apologise for causing offence. So I am not particularly inclined to give your claims any more than a cursory examination nor give your "honesty" much credence given that you have seen fit to smear atheists at every opportunity.

But hey, if appealing to my tone means you get to dodge the question while frantically claiming the moral high grounds, that's all that matters, right?

So as I asked - do you have what it takes to back these up, or not? As I said I'm not expecting wonders but maybe the stars are in the right alignment and you will have a decent argument where other Christian apologists have failed.

I think your hatred and anger has caused you to miss the significance of my post yesterday. It was the long one. In that post I explained in great detail why your or anyone else's demands for empirical evidence will never be fulfilled. God is not something you can put in a test tube and look at, or in a slide under a microscope to scrutinize, or through a telescope to gaze at. He's much bigger than that thankfully!

Gadarene · Jun 27, 2012

Elioenai26 said:
I think your hatred and anger has caused you to miss the significance of my post yesterday. It was the long one. In that post I explained in great detail why your or anyone else's demands for empirical evidence will never be fulfilled. God is not something you can put in a test tube and look at, or in a slide under a microscope to scrutinize, or through a telescope to gaze at. He's much bigger than that thankfully!

I'm aware of the usual excuses. The ones that put the responsibility for "calling" someone to faith on God but the hapless human who is not called is still blamed and punished forever. Despicable, and unloving.

But either way, that doesn't stop you from providing evidence of a miraculous event occurring, surely? God may not be put in a test tube, but we at least expect correlation with a significantly higher chance of a desired outcome when prayer occurs.

Funnily enough - we don't see that. The bare minimum of empirical evidence one would expect if your god was real.

Elioenai26 · Jun 27, 2012

Gadarene said:
I'm aware of the usual excuses. The ones that put the responsibility for "calling" someone to faith on God but the hapless human who is not called is still blamed and punished forever. Despicable, and unloving.

But either way, that doesn't stop you from providing evidence of a miraculous event occurring, surely? God may not be put in a test tube, but we at least expect correlation with a significantly higher chance of a desired outcome when prayer occurs.

Funnily enough - we don't see that. The bare minimum of empirical evidence one would expect if your god was real.

You place your hope and faith in science. You are a man of faith as I am. The only difference is that my faith is in God. Yours is in a method of research and observation which can tell you nothing about why you are even alive and what your purpose is in life. Who is really lost here?

Gadarene · Jun 27, 2012

Elioenai26 said:
You place your hope and faith in science. You are a man of faith as I am. The only difference is that my faith is in God. Yours is in a method of research and observation which can tell you nothing about why you are even alive and what your purpose is in life. Who is really lost here?

Another presumption, another swing and a miss.

I'm well aware that Christianity claims greater certainty than science, and I do not have faith in science. I remember what the feeling of faith was like, and this isn't it. Science is a tool, with limits.

But here's the thing - science delivers on the level of certainty it claims, Christianity does not. It cannot even present a basic level of coherency.

And again, just because you think meaning and purpose requires a god and that you can't handle the thought of life without him does not mean the same is true for others.

Now, I've indulged your red herring long enough. Evidence for the occurrence of miracles, please. Back up your assertion.

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