Prominent Christian Scientists in History

[Elioenai26]

There has been much talk in these forums, specifically this one, about Christianity being a religion based on fear, superstition, etc. etc. The list goes on and on. There has also been much talk about the practice of Christianity as being a matter only of uninformed "blind faith", a type of faith which goes against all reason and in fact contrary to it. A type of faith which does not make use of science and all that it entails. And so on and so forth. There is no shortage of young and old men and women who often parrot what they have heard someone else say and never have bothered to investigate for themselves the claims that they have accepted as true.

Having said this, we must ask: Is this true? Does this thinking really paint an accurate picture of Christianity? The answer is of course it does not.

Let us now take a look at some prominent Christian thinkers and scientists throughout history from hundreds of years ago, all the way up unto the present day. At the bottom of this list (not comprehensive) you will find some thirty notable professionals in their respective fields who are alive today and who are Christians.

This thread is mainly to correct the erroneous and oftentimes accepted idea that Christianity and science are mutually exclusive. They are not. Christianity and science go hand in hand. They are not contrary to each other as these men and women would be more than willing to attest to.

List of Christian thinkers in science - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Elioenai26]

Any commentary. Thoughts etc...?

 

[Paradoxum]

Well I agree that you can be a scientist and a Christian without any contradictions or problems becoming obvious to the conscious mind. In fact there may no contradiction between between science and moderate-liberal faith.

That doesn't mean Christianity is based on evidence though. It would just be that it is unfalsifiable, or mere speculation without evidence, or God of the gaps, or perhaps these people do see problems but hide these from worrying the conscious mind by erecting unjustifiable theories.

But perhaps I am being too harsh on Christianity.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Any commentary. Thoughts etc...?

Yes, plenty in fact. For example:

The idea that Christianity is "a type of faith which goes against all reason and in fact contrary to it" is an idea which I have seen several times expressed by Christians. Sometimes even somewhat proudly, and sometimes as if it kind of proved something. It happened in ancient times, it happens recently. There are average Joe Schmoes who think that way, and there are 'luminaries' who express these thoughts.

However, YMMV.

 

[Elioenai26]

Well I agree that you can be a scientist and a Christian without any contradictions or problems becoming obvious to the conscious mind. In fact there may no contradiction between between science and moderate-liberal faith.

That doesn't mean Christianity is based on evidence though. It would just be that it is unfalsifiable, or mere speculation without evidence, or God of the gaps, or perhaps these people do see problems but hide these from worrying the conscious mind by erecting unjustifiable theories.

But perhaps I am being too harsh on Christianity.

Thank you kindly. And yes it is true. Just because many scientists are Christians does not mean that Christianity is the worldview which corresponds to reality. This post is not an appeal to authority for the veracity of the Christian faith. It is simply to show that there are many intellectuals who see that there is evidence to accept Christianity as more than just a superstitious, antiquated fear based form of religion.

This post is to directly refute the claims that there is "no evidence for God" and claims like: "no scientist believes in God", or "science is monolithic". etc. etc. These men and women who specifically adhere to the Christian faith, not to mention the many that are not mentioned that fall under the umbrella of theism, are convinced that there is in fact very credible evidence for a creationist account of the origin of the universe and that it is supernatural in nature.

 

[Elioenai26]

Yes, plenty in fact. For example:

The idea that Christianity is "a type of faith which goes against all reason and in fact contrary to it" is an idea which I have seen several times expressed by Christians. Sometimes even somewhat proudly, and sometimes as if it kind of proved something. It happened in ancient times, it happens recently. There are average Joe Schmoes who think that way, and there are 'luminaries' who express these thoughts.

However, YMMV.

Do you happen to know the names of these Christians who have held or hold this view?

 

[Lord Emsworth]

This post is to directly refute the claims that there is "no evidence for God" and claims like: "no scientist believes in God", or "science is monolithic". etc. etc.

None of what you posted refutes the claim that there is "no evidence for God".

The claim that "no scientist believes in God" is definitely made up. Or you misunderstood something.

The claim that "science is monolithic" needs more context.

[snip]are convinced that there is in fact very credible evidence for a creationist account of the origin of the universe[snip]

And, what is more is that Christianity is not inherently "creationist"; there are plenty of theistic evolutionists etc. I bet most people on the list you posted are not "creationists".

 

[Gadarene]

There has been much talk in these forums, specifically this one, about Christianity being a religion based on fear, superstition, etc. etc. The list goes on and on. There has also been much talk about the practice of Christianity as being a matter only of uninformed "blind faith", a type of faith which goes against all reason and in fact contrary to it. A type of faith which does not make use of science and all that it entails. And so on and so forth. There is no shortage of young and old men and women who often parrot what they have heard someone else say and never have bothered to investigate for themselves the claims that they have accepted as true.

Having said this, we must ask: Is this true? Does this thinking really paint an accurate picture of Christianity? The answer is of course it does not.

Let us now take a look at some prominent Christian thinkers and scientists throughout history from hundreds of years ago, all the way up unto the present day. At the bottom of this list (not comprehensive) you will find some thirty notable professionals in their respective fields who are alive today and who are Christians.

Simply posting this list merely shows that such Christians exist. It does not show whether they are the rule or the exception.

This thread is mainly to correct the erroneous and oftentimes accepted idea that Christianity and science are mutually exclusive. They are not. Christianity and science go hand in hand. They are not contrary to each other as these men and women would be more than willing to attest to.

Well, just posting a list won't do that. Their beliefs need to be analysed in detail for consistency.

I also suspect that the majority of these listed Christians were believers first and scientists second, not vice versa.

 

[Received]

This thread is mainly to correct the erroneous and oftentimes accepted idea that Christianity and science are mutually exclusive. They are not. Christianity and science go hand in hand. They are not contrary to each other as these men and women would be more than willing to attest to.

They aren't intrinsically contradictory. What makes them so is little more than a firm belief that our scientific beliefs should fit within a literalist Biblical framework, and often the mistaken belief that an evolving creation doesn't allow God to intervene in creation by making man qualitatively different than primates before him.

But in a way science and Christianity necessarily clash, by virtue of the fact that science looks for natural explanations of phenomena, and so by definition rules out any possibility for miracles or divine intervention. If such intervention is a reality, that's a limitation of science at explaining objectivity -- something it otherwise does a fantastic job of doing.

 

[Elioenai26]

None of what you posted refutes the claim that there is "no evidence for God".

The claim that "no scientist believes in God" is definitely made up. Or you misunderstood something.

The claim that "science is monolithic" needs more context.




And, what is more is that Christianity is not inherently "creationist"; there are plenty of theistic evolutionists etc. I bet most people on the list you posted are not "creationists".

I thank you kindly for your contributions to this thread, as I do the rest of those who decided to take time out of their day to comment and contribute. Once again I thank you.

In order to explain in more detail my intention in supplying this wikipedia link, it must be stated that for the empiricist or any likeminded person, the fact that many intellectual men and women are Christians does not mean that they are going to take that as empirical evidence for the existence of God. My intention in refuting the statement : "there is no evidence for God", is simply to call those who are sincerely weighing the available arguments and evidence (not empirical) I.e. historical etc. , to ask themselves honestly why these men and women of science would place their faith in Jesus Christ. That is my intention. The majority of people in the world who make decisions, whether they be of a profound life changing nature, or a more common nature, generally do not tend to rely on empirical evidence as their chief means of determining what course they should pursue. People in general tend to make their decisions based on a wide range of influences and factors as we can all attest to. Sometimes empirical evidence is influential in this process, but for the most part in our day to day lives it is not.

Therefore, for the one seeking answers in a society where everything is becoming increasingly rationalistic and anti-Christian, the call is simply to examine the work and writings and lives of these learned men and women of the Christian faith. Use this as one means of coming to a sound decision on whether or not the claims of many are substantiated when they pit science against religion.

 

[Gadarene]

Out of those listed, Elioenai, how many have you actually read?

Which would you say makes the best case?

If that fails, then surely there is little point in being required to read through the rest.

 

[quatona]

There has been much talk in these forums, specifically this one, about Christianity being a religion based on fear, superstition, etc. etc. The list goes on and on. There has also been much talk about the practice of Christianity as being a matter only of uninformed "blind faith", a type of faith which goes against all reason and in fact contrary to it. A type of faith which does not make use of science and all that it entails. And so on and so forth. There is no shortage of young and old men and women who often parrot what they have heard someone else say and never have bothered to investigate for themselves the claims that they have accepted as true.

Having said this, we must ask: Is this true? Does this thinking really paint an accurate picture of Christianity? The answer is of course it does not.

Let us now take a look at some prominent Christian thinkers and scientists throughout history from hundreds of years ago, all the way up unto the present day. At the bottom of this list (not comprehensive) you will find some thirty notable professionals in their respective fields who are alive today and who are Christians.

This thread is mainly to correct the erroneous and oftentimes accepted idea that Christianity and science are mutually exclusive. They are not. Christianity and science go hand in hand. They are not contrary to each other as these men and women would be more than willing to attest to.

List of Christian thinkers in science - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I know plenty of Christians who are completely rational in their professions and fields of expertise. I´m not sure I understand how this is of any relevance for the way they privately approach metaphysical issues.

 

[Dave Ellis]

No doubt there are some very smart people, scientist or not who are Christians.

That's beside the point however, what matters is can the basic tenets of Christianity be proven. Whether Francis Collins wants to accept them on faith or not is irrelevant, it does not mean they are true... Smart men can be, and often are wrong. That's why following the actual evidence is important to determining truth.

Many key points to many, if not all "major" stories in the bible are indeed contradictory to what we've learned about the world through science (and history). We know the earth was not created in 7 days, we know it's a sphere, we know it orbits the earth, we know life did not arise with multiple fully developed complex species, etc. We know the Great Flood did not happen, we know the Tower of Babel and the Jewish Exodus out of Egypt were incorrect, we know King Herod's massacre of the innocents never occurred, the Roman census that apparently sent Joseph and Mary to Bethlehem never happened. We know Nazareth was not founded until the late 1st century and the Easter "Zombie Apocalypse" when Jesus came back to life, likewise never happened. And this is just the stuff I can pull off the top of my head.

That involves Astronomy, Biology, Archaeology, Geology and Physics to determine those, which are certainly scientific disciplines. There are major areas of conflict between the biblical stories and Science.

More liberal versions of Christianity I will agree are more in line with what we've discovered through science.... however the problem with them is that they are moving further and further away from what's actually written in the Bible.

I hate to invoke the no true scotsman fallacy... and many Christian denominations split over things that are written in the bible but interpreted differently. However, more and more liberal Christian Churches are popping up that pretty well preach things that are opposite to the Christian Biblical message. When you start preaching in opposition to your own holy book, one must ask are you actually of that religion?

Either way, to sum things up, it depends what branch of Christianity you're in. Fundamentalist Christianity is in open conflict with science, where more liberal versions are more comparable. I wouldn't say any Christian church I'm aware of has been 100% compatable with science though.

 

[toLiJC]

the science is dangerous to the spiritual servants when they go astray from the right faith believing in contrary to it scientific things, for example, the theory about biological evolution represents that there is no God or God as exiguous, however the science of the non-believers/non-religious/non-occultists is safe for them(-selves), but every scientific thing which is contrary to the right faith is dangerous for the clerics/worshippers

 

[Gadarene]

the science is dangerous to the spiritual servants when they go astray from the right faith believing in contrary to it scientific things, for example, the theory about biological evolution represents that there is no God

Yeah, it actually doesn't say that at all.

 

[Elioenai26]

No doubt there are some very smart people, scientist or not who are Christians.

That's beside the point however, what matters is can the basic tenets of Christianity be proven. Whether Francis Collins wants to accept them on faith or not is irrelevant, it does not mean they are true... Smart men can be, and often are wrong. That's why following the actual evidence is important to determining truth.

Many key points to many, if not all "major" stories in the bible are indeed contradictory to what we've learned about the world through science (and history). We know the earth was not created in 7 days, we know it's a sphere, we know it orbits the earth, we know life did not arise with multiple fully developed complex species, etc. We know the Great Flood did not happen, we know the Tower of Babel and the Jewish Exodus out of Egypt were incorrect, we know King Herod's massacre of the innocents never occurred, the Roman census that apparently sent Joseph and Mary to Bethlehem never happened. We know Nazareth was not founded until the late 1st century and the Easter "Zombie Apocalypse" when Jesus came back to life, likewise never happened. And this is just the stuff I can pull off the top of my head.

That involves Astronomy, Biology, Archaeology, Geology and Physics to determine those, which are certainly scientific disciplines. There are major areas of conflict between the biblical stories and Science.

More liberal versions of Christianity I will agree are more in line with what we've discovered through science.... however the problem with them is that they are moving further and further away from what's actually written in the Bible.

I hate to invoke the no true scotsman fallacy... and many Christian denominations split over things that are written in the bible but interpreted differently. However, more and more liberal Christian Churches are popping up that pretty well preach things that are opposite to the Christian Biblical message. When you start preaching in opposition to your own holy book, one must ask are you actually of that religion?

Either way, to sum things up, it depends what branch of Christianity you're in. Fundamentalist Christianity is in open conflict with science, where more liberal versions are more comparable. I wouldn't say any Christian church I'm aware of has been 100% compatable with science though.

I thank you kindly Mr. Ellis for your contribution here. I pray you and your's are well.

I will briefly take the time to address something that is oftentimes overlooked by some when there is a discussion about the beliefs of Christians especially when looking at The Way from an atheistic or naturalistic point of view. It is easy even for sincere defenders of the faith to forget this simple fact. This fact is seen in a letter which the Apostle Paul wrote to the 1st century church in Corinth. In the letter he says: "my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God."

As Christians we value knowledge, we value the scientific method, we value the disciplines of philosophy and psychology and the use of logic etc. etc. But as Christians, we at the same time realize that these disciplines are unable to answer some of life's toughest and most meaningful questions. However learned we as humans may become, the same basic set of questions that have existed since the beginning of the human race will always be there, waiting to be answered.

As Christians, we have all come to the point in our lives where by God's grace we reach the end of ourselves and see that in actuality we really are quite small considering the vastness of the cosmos. But nevertheless, we are here, and we look back on the rich history of the human race. We look back at all that has been done in the name of love, and charity and we cannot ignore the great sacrifices many men and women have made for their fellow man. It is the looking beyond that which binds us so tightly to this earth and all that shall pass away which enabled many of those righteous saints to give their lives for complete strangers and those who were in need. It was the looking unto life eternal that inspired many to give their lives for their fellow man.

As Christians we see God's grace as enabling us to look beyond the natural to that which cannot be grasped by the finite minds of men. We are called to look unto those things which are eternal and not only the things which are temporal. For the Apostle Paul writes in his second letter to the Christians in Corinth that: "we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal."

This looking unto things eternal and beyond the natural is accomplished by the gift that God gives to people called "faith". This faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. It is not some magical thing that men can point to and say this is faith or that is faith. Faith is simply believing what God has said about Himself and about us as people created in His image. This is the only means by which humans can understand the works of God.

Why?

If you think about it, lets say God made it to where He could be understood and comprehended through sheer mental exercise and human effort. Lets say He made it to where only those who were very intellectual could understand Him and have a relationship with Him. Would this be fair? Of course not! In that case only smart people could know Him.

Or lets say, only people of a certain race could know Him and love Him. Would this be fair? Of course not! If that was the case, then everyone not of that race would be left out.

Or lets say God said only wealthy people could know Him. Would this be fair? Of course not. In that case what would become of the poor?

If any of these were the case, then the ones who could understand God by their own effort would have reason to brag and boast and be prideful of themselves. They could walk around and say: "look at me! Im special because of this or that reason."

God being who He is, is not going to do any of those things. He has made it possible for all to know Him. In His wisdom He has made it possible and at the same time eliminated the possiblity that anyone could brag and boast about it!

How you may ask?

Since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For it is true, many ask for signs and for wonders and many search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to some a stumbling block and to some it is foolishness, but to those who are the called, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

God decided that men would not be able to know Him by sheer mental exercise and learning and wisdom. But by the message of the cross.

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written,

“ I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And the cleverness of the clever I will set aside.”

Where is the wise man? Where is the intellectual? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? But why? Was it not to strike at the very root of pride which keeps a man from looking outside of himself? It is pride that great destroyer of men that goes before them when they fall. But how does this play out?


As Christians there were not many who were/are wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble that God extended this faith to; but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, so that no man may boast before God. But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “ Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

I have written this by way of explaining that when a Christian is asked to give empirical evidence to justify their belief, the Christian will always and forever respond by simply saying: "It is not necessary." It is not necessary for a child of God to be able to sit down and go through the five arguments for the existence of God. It is not necessary for a child of God to be able to explain every difficult passage in the Bible away and to be able to know every logical response to every objection raised to him. It is not necessary for him or her to be able to explain why God decided to make the world the way He did. It is not necessary for them to be able to explain the exact nature of hell. All of these things do not affect the Christians salvation and status as a child of God and heir of Christ. Nor does having these answers or not having them affect one who is truly seeking to know God. Why? Because ultimately it is God who draws a person unto Himself and reveals Himself to a person. No amount of striving or self effort or determination can bridge that infinite gap.

Now I know that there are some that do not even see the validity in speaking of the supernatural. They will not greatly benefit from all that I have written, although in some manner I pray they do. Nevertheless, this is the Christian perspective and many have testified to it's life changing power.

I pray that someone on the path for the search of truth might benefit from these humble words.

May all things praise Him.

 

[Dave Ellis]

the science is dangerous to the spiritual servants when they go astray from the right faith believing in contrary to it scientific things, for example, the theory about biological evolution represents that there is no God or God as exiguous, however the science of the non-believers/non-religious/non-occultists is safe for them(-selves), but every scientific thing which is contrary to the right faith is dangerous for the clerics/worshippers

Can you please show where in the Theory of Evolution it states that God doesn't exist.... or addresses God in any way whatsoever?

Stop spewing ignorance, it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Dave Ellis]

I thank you kindly Mr. Ellis for your contribution here. I pray you and your's are well.

I will briefly take the time to address something that is oftentimes overlooked by some when there is a discussion about the beliefs of Christians especially when looking at The Way from an atheistic or naturalistic point of view. It is easy even for sincere defenders of the faith to forget this simple fact. This fact is seen in a letter which the Apostle Paul wrote to the 1st century church in Corinth. In the letter he says: "my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God."

As Christians we value knowledge, we value the scientific method, we value the disciplines of philosophy and psychology and the use of logic etc. etc. But as Christians, we at the same time realize that these disciplines are unable to answer some of life's toughest and most meaningful questions. However learned we as humans may become, the same basic set of questions that have existed since the beginning of the human race will always be there, waiting to be answered.

As Christians, we have all come to the point in our lives where by God's grace we reach the end of ourselves and see that in actuality we really are quite small considering the vastness of the cosmos. But nevertheless, we are here, and we look back on the rich history of the human race. We look back at all that has been done in the name of love, and charity and we cannot ignore the great sacrifices many men and women have made for their fellow man. It is the looking beyond that which binds us so tightly to this earth and all that shall pass away which enabled many of those righteous saints to give their lives for complete strangers and those who were in need. It was the looking unto life eternal that inspired many to give their lives for their fellow man.

As Christians we see God's grace as enabling us to look beyond the natural to that which cannot be grasped by the finite minds of men. We are called to look unto those things which are eternal and not only the things which are temporal. For the Apostle Paul writes in his second letter to the Christians in Corinth that: "we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal."

This looking unto things eternal and beyond the natural is accomplished by the gift that God gives to people called "faith". This faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. It is not some magical thing that men can point to and say this is faith or that is faith. Faith is simply believing what God has said about Himself and about us as people created in His image. This is the only means by which humans can understand the works of God.

Why?

If you think about it, lets say God made it to where He could be understood and comprehended through sheer mental exercise and human effort. Lets say He made it to where only those who were very intellectual could understand Him and have a relationship with Him. Would this be fair? Of course not! In that case only smart people could know Him.

Or lets say, only people of a certain race could know Him and love Him. Would this be fair? Of course not! If that was the case, then everyone not of that race would be left out.

Or lets say God said only wealthy people could know Him. Would this be fair? Of course not. In that case what would become of the poor?

If any of these were the case, then the ones who could understand God by their own effort would have reason to brag and boast and be prideful of themselves. They could walk around and say: "look at me! Im special because of this or that reason."

God being who He is, is not going to do any of those things. He has made it possible for all to know Him. In His wisdom He has made it possible and at the same time eliminated the possiblity that anyone could brag and boast about it!

How you may ask?

Since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For it is true, many ask for signs and for wonders and many search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to some a stumbling block and to some it is foolishness, but to those who are the called, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

God decided that men would not be able to know Him by sheer mental exercise and learning and wisdom. But by the message of the cross.

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written,

“ I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And the cleverness of the clever I will set aside.”

Where is the wise man? Where is the intellectual? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? But why? Was it not to strike at the very root of pride which keeps a man from looking outside of himself? It is pride that great destroyer of men that goes before them when they fall. But how does this play out?


As Christians there were not many who were/are wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble that God extended this faith to; but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, so that no man may boast before God. But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “ Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

I have written this by way of explaining that when a Christian is asked to give empirical evidence to justify their belief, the Christian will always and forever respond by simply saying: "It is not necessary." It is not necessary for a child of God to be able to sit down and go through the five arguments for the existence of God. It is not necessary for a child of God to be able to explain every difficult passage in the Bible away and to be able to know every logical response to every objection raised to him. It is not necessary for him or her to be able to explain why God decided to make the world the way He did. It is not necessary for them to be able to explain the exact nature of hell. All of these things do not affect the Christians salvation and status as a child of God and heir of Christ. Nor does having these answers or not having them affect one who is truly seeking to know God. Why? Because ultimately it is God who draws a person unto Himself and reveals Himself to a person. No amount of striving or self effort or determination can bridge that infinite gap.

Now I know that there are some that do not even see the validity in speaking of the supernatural. They will not greatly benefit from all that I have written, although in some manner I pray they do. Nevertheless, this is the Christian perspective and many have testified to it's life changing power.

I pray that someone on the path for the search of truth might benefit from these humble words.

May all things praise Him.

Thanks for the response.... however I must point out none of that addresses science.

If you require faith, that means it can't be empirically proven. The concept of faith is the exact opposite of science.

 

[Gadarene]

I will briefly take the time to address something that is oftentimes overlooked by some when there is a discussion about the beliefs of Christians especially when looking at The Way from an atheistic or naturalistic point of view. It is easy even for sincere defenders of the faith to forget this simple fact. This fact is seen in a letter which the Apostle Paul wrote to the 1st century church in Corinth. In the letter he says: "my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God."

As Christians we value knowledge, we value the scientific method, we value the disciplines of philosophy and psychology and the use of logic etc. etc. But as Christians, we at the same time realize that these disciplines are unable to answer some of life's toughest and most meaningful questions. However learned we as humans may become, the same basic set of questions that have existed since the beginning of the human race will always be there, waiting to be answered.

As Christians, we have all come to the point in our lives where by God's grace we reach the end of ourselves and see that in actuality we really are quite small considering the vastness of the cosmos. But nevertheless, we are here, and we look back on the rich history of the human race. We look back at all that has been done in the name of love, and charity and we cannot ignore the great sacrifices many men and women have made for their fellow man. It is the looking beyond that which binds us so tightly to this earth and all that shall pass away which enabled many of those righteous saints to give their lives for complete strangers and those who were in need. It was the looking unto life eternal that inspired many to give their lives for their fellow man.

It's interesting how Paul talks about spirit and power, and he's not merely talking about sacrifices, he's talking about miracles and charisma.

As I said elsewhere, if Christians could actually perform such then they would be somewhat more credible. But they can't so all they can do is talk.

As Christians we see God's grace as enabling us to look beyond the natural to that which cannot be grasped by the finite minds of men. We are called to look unto those things which are eternal and not only the things which are temporal. For the Apostle Paul writes in his second letter to the Christians in Corinth that: "we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal."

This looking unto things eternal and beyond the natural is accomplished by the gift that God gives to people called "faith". This faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. It is not some magical thing that men can point to and say this is faith or that is faith. Faith is simply believing what God has said about Himself and about us as people created in His image. This is the only means by which humans can understand the works of God.

Why?

If you think about it, lets say God made it to where He could be understood and comprehended through sheer mental exercise and human effort. Lets say He made it to where only those who were very intellectual could understand Him and have a relationship with Him. Would this be fair? Of course not! In that case only smart people could know Him.

I always find this ironic coming from an adherent of someone like Craig, whose entire rationale for belief is grounded in sheer ivory tower concepts.

I suspect most of the people easily impressed by him don't have the foggiest clue about cosmology or Molinism or aseity or half the things he talks about.

Or lets say, only people of a certain race could know Him and love Him. Would this be fair? Of course not! If that was the case, then everyone not of that race would be left out.

Yes, which is why it is rather puzzling God should elect to reveal himself in some obscure Roman backwater. But do go on.

If any of these were the case, then the ones who could understand God by their own effort would have reason to brag and boast and be prideful of themselves. They could walk around and say: "look at me! Im special because of this or that reason."

God being who He is, is not going to do any of those things. He has made it possible for all to know Him. In His wisdom He has made it possible and at the same time eliminated the possiblity that anyone could brag and boast about it!

How you may ask?

Since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For it is true, many ask for signs and for wonders and many search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to some a stumbling block and to some it is foolishness, but to those who are the called, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

God decided that men would not be able to know Him by sheer mental exercise and learning and wisdom. But by the message of the cross.

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written,

“ I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And the cleverness of the clever I will set aside.”

Where is the wise man? Where is the intellectual? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? But why? Was it not to strike at the very root of pride which keeps a man from looking outside of himself? It is pride that great destroyer of men that goes before them when they fall. But how does this play out?

It's funny how you Christians will deride intelligence and reason like mad when it suits you - but show a flim-flam merchant like Craig trying to use the same tools and you're all over him.

As Christians there were not many who were/are wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble that God extended this faith to; but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, so that no man may boast before God. But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “ Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

I have written this by way of explaining that when a Christian is asked to give empirical evidence to justify their belief, the Christian will always and forever respond by simply saying: "It is not necessary." It is not necessary for a child of God to be able to sit down and go through the five arguments for the existence of God. It is not necessary for a child of God to be able to explain every difficult passage in the Bible away and to be able to know every logical response to every objection raised to him. It is not necessary for him or her to be able to explain why God decided to make the world the way He did. It is not necessary for them to be able to explain the exact nature of hell. All of these things do not affect the Christians salvation and status as a child of God and heir of Christ. Nor does having these answers or not having them affect one who is truly seeking to know God. Why? Because ultimately it is God who draws a person unto Himself and reveals Himself to a person. No amount of striving or self effort or determination can bridge that infinite gap.

So if Christians as you claim can't be bothered to even try, then how exactly is God to get his message across?

I'm pretty sure I cared a darn sight more about the unsaved when I was a Christian to make more of an effort than anyone spewing this smug tripe appears to be.

 

[toLiJC]

Yeah, it actually doesn't say that at all.

Can you please show where in the Theory of Evolution it states that God doesn't exist.... or addresses God in any way whatsoever?

Stop spewing ignorance, it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about.

i meant just that such theories can bring some believers to the thought that there may be no God or that God is exiguous and so the same to go astray from the right faith - this is it