Projection

[probinson]

So, I've been lurking in the shadows of the WOF debates for a few days (somewhat), reading posts, and I've noticed something (from a WoF perspective. I'm sure the non-WoF could make the same observations...)

I'm using "WoF" topics as the example, since there are eleventy-billion threads in this debate section on these topics, but it can happen with anything.

People who say they have been "burned" by WoF tend to take a much more vehement stance against it. (Duh.)

I believe that's what you call "projection". IOW, when you see the "WoF" doctrines, or anything that remotely resembles it, it causes you to revolt. You don't actually hear what is said, and you continue to project your bad experience into everything that everyone says.

So for example, someone carrying the WOF icon says something like "God wants you to be prosperous", and the people that have had bad WoF experiences will automatically respond with "God isn't here to give you a mansion and a yacht". Or someone says, "God wants to heal you", and it conjures up past memories of how some well-meaning, foolish WoF person hurt you or a loved one with their ill-timed, un-compassionate words, and you no longer objectively hear what is said.

For me, it's the complete opposite. I had well-meaning, non-WoF people tell me that it wasn't God's will for me to be free of allergies. But I chose not to believe that. I chose to believe that not only could God heal, but that He would heal me, simply because of His Love for me. So now when I hear people say "It might not be God's will to heal you", I think back to those well-meaning Christians who tried to incorrectly tell me that it might not God's will for me to be free of allergies, and I tend to project that into my responses.

I submit to you that NONE of us will make any progress in these debates until we allow God to remove those roots of bitterness that exist in us and stop projecting our hurts. Worse yet, the Bible tells us that not only will those roots defile us, but they will defile many around us.

The bottom line is, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. I have seen NO ONE here preaching "another gospel", as I've heard some people say.

In any event, those are just some of my random thoughts. Feel free to add your random thoughts.

 

[map4]

How about....Amen!

Some people, from both sides, don't seem to really "hear" what the others are saying. They react to what they perceive or want to hear.

 

[Jere209]

So, I've been lurking in the shadows of the WOF debates for a few days (somewhat), reading posts, and I've noticed something (from a WoF perspective. I'm sure the non-WoF could make the same observations...)

I'm using "WoF" topics as the example, since there are eleventy-billion threads in this debate section on these topics, but it can happen with anything.

People who say they have been "burned" by WoF tend to take a much more vehement stance against it. (Duh.)

I believe that's what you call "projection". IOW, when you see the "WoF" doctrines, or anything that remotely resembles it, it causes you to revolt. You don't actually hear what is said, and you continue to project your bad experience into everything that everyone says.

So for example, someone carrying the WOF icon says something like "God wants you to be prosperous", and the people that have had bad WoF experiences will automatically respond with "God isn't here to give you a mansion and a yacht". Or someone says, "God wants to heal you", and it conjures up past memories of how some well-meaning, foolish WoF person hurt you or a loved one with their ill-timed, un-compassionate words, and you no longer objectively hear what is said.

For me, it's the complete opposite. I had well-meaning, non-WoF people tell me that it wasn't God's will for me to be free of allergies. But I chose not to believe that. I chose to believe that not only could God heal, but that He would heal me, simply because of His Love for me. So now when I hear people say "It might not be God's will to heal you", I think back to those well-meaning Christians who tried to incorrectly tell me that it might not God's will for me to be free of allergies, and I tend to project that into my responses.

I submit to you that NONE of us will make any progress in these debates until we allow God to remove those roots of bitterness that exist in us and stop projecting our hurts. Worse yet, the Bible tells us that not only will those roots defile us, but they will defile many around us.

The bottom line is, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. I have seen NO ONE here preaching "another gospel", as I've heard some people say.

In any event, those are just some of my random thoughts. Feel free to add your random thoughts.

Thank you for posting this. It's exactly what I have been thinking, and was wondering how to bring it up. Thank you again.
God bless
Jere

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

People who say they have been "burned" by WoF tend to take a much more vehement stance against it. (Duh.)

I believe that's what you call "projection". IOW, when you see the "WoF" doctrines, or anything that remotely resembles it, it causes you to revolt. You don't actually hear what is said, and you continue to project your bad experience into everything that everyone says.

So for example, someone carrying the WOF icon says something like "God wants you to be prosperous", and the people that have had bad WoF experiences will automatically respond with "God isn't here to give you a mansion and a yacht". Or someone says, "God wants to heal you", and it conjures up past memories of how some well-meaning, foolish WoF person hurt you or a loved one with their ill-timed, un-compassionate words, and you no longer objectively hear what is said.

Unless Moriah bes mistaken, the correct term for this, in psychotherapeutic parlance, would be "abreaction". The item or element precipitating it would be known as a "trigger".

The observations you make above, incidentally, also work in matters of toxic soteriology and legalism, particularly where these have preyed upon inclinations toward scrupulosity.

Not all disagreement, however, arises from instances of abreaction. In some cases, bona fide theological differences exist which cannot easily be reconciled. We should not automatically regard disagreement as a negative thing in itself OR as inimical to unity; on the contrary, we should perceive it as a challenging opportunity to manifest a unity that transcends the worldly weakness of relying upon uniformity to maintain it.

 

[Tenebrae]

To be perfectly honest, the reason one of the only issues I have with WoF is because not one of its adherents can explain to me why I recieve all the things they insist can only come to its adherants

 

[pdudgeon]

To be perfectly honest, the reason one of the only issues I have with WoF is because not one of its adherents can explain to me why I recieve all the things they insist can only come to its adherants

James 1:17 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."

the reason those gifts are perfect is because they both reflect God's perfection, and they glorify him.
Satan gives gifts as well, but they are imperfect, they bind a person in sin, and they glorify satan.

the issue of people in general who are not Christians having gifts has long puzzled observers, wondering exactly where the gifts came from and how to tell the difference. But in both instances the spiritual gifts reflect the giver moreso than they do the person who uses them.

 

[Always in His Presence]

To be perfectly honest, the reason one of the only issues I have with WoF is because not one of its adherents can explain to me why I recieve all the things they insist can only come to its adherants

From a Word of Faith pastor, I just want to saythat whoeversaid that to you is a moron and has no clue what we believe.

I'm sorry you had to hear such crap.

 

[MadameGuyon]

I believe that's what you call "projection". IOW, when you see the "WoF" doctrines, or anything that remotely resembles it, it causes you to revolt. You don't actually hear what is said, and you continue to project your bad experience into everything that everyone says.

The Bible calls this 'offense'. I have seen women who have tried to submit to unkind husbands, become very offended at the scriptures on submission, so that if it was brought up, they reacted with great anger.

Usually, it is only with great care that true submission and being a door mat can be separated in their mind, so that the offense at God's word can be rectified.

But as you have said, the worse thing that happens is that offense shuts down hearing what is true, due to the wound experienced from the false. The person who thinks themselves free is sometimes just in another bondage of a different kind.

 

[JimfromOhio]

For awhile, right after I left WOF (my very, very short stay many, many years ago), I would not even go into WOF's situation. However, "they" keep appearing and I am on the receiving end of "hearing" (reading) their doctrines, especially in this forum. Man's doctrines often gets in the way of the doctrine of love. Thinking logically is a tough thing to do because it works against our human and horizontal perspective on true eternal salvation (healing). From a non-WOF Christian perspective, we believe that God's Word is true and that He can be trusted to perform all that He has promised. Our faith is in God that He has provided through His Spirit, not in faith itself.

Holy Spirit's convictions are to break down our pleasures, pride, passions, selfish motives however if you READ carefully, and compare doctrinal notes, you will see why I can't accept their doctrines. We should all take a long hard look at what things we consider to be important from God's perspective rather than man's perspective. This is like Jesus versus Pharisees & Scribes. The Scribes and Pharisees were guilty of bibliolatry and they did highly honor the words of Scripture (Old Testament). They knew the Book and so tragic that the knowing the words of the Book, knew not its Author. "You know neither me nor my Father," pronounced Jesus. People can take sides and I would be on Jesus' side. The new creature in Spirit within us as for example Jesus likened the religious Pharisees to a group of dishwashers who clean the outside of a cup while leaving the inside dirty. He said, "Now you Pharisees make the outside of the cup and dish clean, but your inward part is full of greed and wickedness. Foolish ones! Did not He who made the outside make the inside also?" (Luke 11:39-40). The true prophet says humbly, "To me, a sinful man, God spoke." But the scribes and Pharisees declare, "When we speak, God agrees."

So in reality, this will not stop until Christ returns. Until then, divisions and strifes will continue.

 

[JimfromOhio]

I'm sorry you had to hear such crap.

I know the feeling.

 

[LeadWorship]

lol Pete - I do believe we travel in the same wave length. At our church, we call it being "unified in Spirit".

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7263439

 

[LeadWorship]

sry dbl post.

 

[probinson]

For awhile, right after I left WOF (my very, very short stay many, many years ago), I would not even go into WOF's situation. However, "they" keep appearing and I am on the receiving end of "hearing" (reading) their doctrines, especially in this forum.

This is a perfect example of my OP.

You were in WoF, by your own words, for a "very short stay many, many years ago". But here you are, trying to tell us what WoF people believe.

And then, you started a thread (here) about Fanny Crosby, in which YOU brought up whether it was God's will to heal her or not. Now I assume I'm a "they" in your post that keeps appearing, but all I said in that thread was "God bless Fanny Crosby" to answer your question, to which you brought up the WoF doctrine. It didn't appear until you brought it up...

And I'm sure I've done the same thing, starting a topic myself and then saying, "Why are we always talking about this?" That's a clue to everyone else...

The point is, you believe that you see WoF doctrine under every rock, because you are so vehemently opposed to it that you interject it into everything we talk about, even when no one's brought it up.

 

[JimB]

So, I've been lurking in the shadows of the WOF debates for a few days (somewhat), reading posts, and I've noticed something (from a WoF perspective. I'm sure the non-WoF could make the same observations...)

I'm using "WoF" topics as the example, since there are eleventy-billion threads in this debate section on these topics, but it can happen with anything.

People who say they have been "burned" by WoF tend to take a much more vehement stance against it. (Duh.)

I believe that's what you call "projection". IOW, when you see the "WoF" doctrines, or anything that remotely resembles it, it causes you to revolt. You don't actually hear what is said, and you continue to project your bad experience into everything that everyone says.

So for example, someone carrying the WOF icon says something like "God wants you to be prosperous", and the people that have had bad WoF experiences will automatically respond with "God isn't here to give you a mansion and a yacht". Or someone says, "God wants to heal you", and it conjures up past memories of how some well-meaning, foolish WoF person hurt you or a loved one with their ill-timed, un-compassionate words, and you no longer objectively hear what is said.

For me, it's the complete opposite. I had well-meaning, non-WoF people tell me that it wasn't God's will for me to be free of allergies. But I chose not to believe that. I chose to believe that not only could God heal, but that He would heal me, simply because of His Love for me. So now when I hear people say "It might not be God's will to heal you", I think back to those well-meaning Christians who tried to incorrectly tell me that it might not God's will for me to be free of allergies, and I tend to project that into my responses.

I submit to you that NONE of us will make any progress in these debates until we allow God to remove those roots of bitterness that exist in us and stop projecting our hurts. Worse yet, the Bible tells us that not only will those roots defile us, but they will defile many around us.

The bottom line is, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. I have seen NO ONE here preaching "another gospel", as I've heard some people say.

In any event, those are just some of my random thoughts. Feel free to add your random thoughts.

This is a good post, Pete. Truth always lies somewhere between the extremes.

I was not “burned” by WOF. I just simple came to a point where WOF’s more outlandish claims did not measure up to what it promised—signs did not confirm what was being preached—so I stepped back and reevaluated what I had been taught. And I rejected some (but not all) of it and left a fellowship of hopeful (they would say faith-full) believers who selectively believed the scriptures they wanted to believe and explained away those they didn’t want to believe. It was a personal choice, a watershed moment after years of defending indefensible positions, not one that came from being "burned". The WOF people I associated with were, for the most part, caring people—a little more self-centered than most, but caring.

Somewhere between God always wanting a person to be healed in every instance and faith being a formula to get whatever I want from God (my cosmic genie in a bottle) and those who believe it is God’s will for a sick person to always be sick and faith not factoring into anything, lies the truth.

Admittedly, I am trying to find that point of balance between the extremes. Threads like this can help if we don’t go to extremes defending an indefensible position (on either side).

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain​

 

[probinson]

Not all disagreement, however, arises from instances of abreaction. In some cases, bona fide theological differences exist which cannot easily be reconciled. We should not automatically regard disagreement as a negative thing in itself OR as inimical to unity; on the contrary, we should perceive it as a challenging opportunity to manifest a unity that transcends the worldly weakness of relying upon uniformity to maintain it.

While I agree that not all disagreement results from this, I would say that very little disagreement on this forum finds its root in bona fide theological differences. All you have to do is listen to ourselves talk. "When I was in a WoF church, they told me I didn't have enough faith." "My grandma was a great woman of faith, and that lady had the nerve to tell her she wasn't in faith." "My cousin was deeply hurt by WoF people". Or if you prefer, "That guy told me it wasn't God's will to heal me, and if I'd listened to him, I might be dead." "I've known people that will try to talk you out of what you're believing for and discourage your faith." .... the list could go on and on...

Everyone of those statements is indicative of an experience that has tainted our ability to hear one another clearly. Instead of hearing what people are truly saying, we hear the echos of the people that have hurt us.

People will tell you that they've let those things go, and they don't affect them anymore, but when someone repeatedly talks about the hurt they endured, they have not let it go, and they're only fooling themselves into thinking they have.

Example; Some people know that I went through a church split about 5 years back that included much of my family (on both sides of the split) and people I thought I could trust. I'll spare you the details, but it was ugly. In any event, I told myself it didn't affect me, but when people would ask, I would go on and on about how wrong it was, and how they'd hurt "others" in the church by leaving, and just generally get all fired up about it.

It even transferred over to my posting at CF. I'd read threads about people who were thinking of leaving their church, and I would reply very abruptly. It wasn't until about 2 years ago that I finally went to God and said, "Help."

I had to get real with myself. Everyone knew it was affecting me, but I refused to admit it. In reality, I now know that I wanted to hold on to that offense, because it made me feel justified to attack the people that had done that, under the guise of "warning" people of what could happen.

Now that I'm done telling on myself, God taught me something in the midst of all this, and I began to see clearer than ever the hurts inside me and the way it was causing me to react to people. So I began the process of letting those hurts go, with God healing the wounds of the past. And as that healing process began, I began to notice the same things that I saw in myself in other people.

Certainly I'm not perfect in this aspect, but I'm relating my story here in hopes that it will help someone realize, that unless we allow God to heal those past hurts and wounds that people have inflicted upon us, we will continue to have roots of bitterness in us that will prevent us from hearing clearly what others are saying, and those roots will cause us to hurt others as well.

 

[map4]

While I agree that not all disagreement results from this, I would say that very little disagreement on this forum finds its root in bona fide theological differences. All you have to do is listen to ourselves talk. "When I was in a WoF church, they told me I didn't have enough faith." "My grandma was a great woman of faith, and that lady had the nerve to tell her she wasn't in faith." "My cousin was deeply hurt by WoF people". Or if you prefer, "That guy told me it wasn't God's will to heal me, and if I'd listened to him, I might be dead." "I've known people that will try to talk you out of what you're believing for and discourage your faith." .... the list could go on and on...

Everyone of those statements is indicative of an experience that has tainted our ability to hear one another clearly. Instead of hearing what people are truly saying, we hear the echos of the people that have hurt us.

People will tell you that they've let those things go, and they don't affect them anymore, but when someone repeatedly talks about the hurt they endured, they have not let it go, and they're only fooling themselves into thinking they have.

Example; Some people know that I went through a church split about 5 years back that included much of my family (on both sides of the split) and people I thought I could trust. I'll spare you the details, but it was ugly. In any event, I told myself it didn't affect me, but when people would ask, I would go on and on about how wrong it was, and how they'd hurt "others" in the church by leaving, and just generally get all fired up about it.

It even transferred over to my posting at CF. I'd read threads about people who were thinking of leaving their church, and I would reply very abruptly. It wasn't until about 2 years ago that I finally went to God and said, "Help."

I had to get real with myself. Everyone knew it was affecting me, but I refused to admit it. In reality, I now know that I wanted to hold on to that offense, because it made me feel justified to attack the people that had done that, under the guise of "warning" people of what could happen.

Now that I'm done telling on myself, God taught me something in the midst of all this, and I began to see clearer than ever the hurts inside me and the way it was causing me to react to people. So I began the process of letting those hurts go, with God healing the wounds of the past. And as that healing process began, I began to notice the same things that I saw in myself in other people.

Certainly I'm not perfect in this aspect, but I'm relating my story here in hopes that it will help someone realize, that unless we allow God to heal those past hurts and wounds that people have inflicted upon us, we will continue to have roots of bitterness in us that will prevent us from hearing clearly what others are saying, and those roots will cause us to hurt others as well.

Good post, thank you.

I believe that root of bitterness is one of the most harmful things there is.
The root spreads from the original thing that made us bitter to all areas of our lives. It chokes out the truth of showing God's love and grace to others because we end up seeing and reacting to everything through that bitterness. Being bitter, imo, is a classic sign of selfishness and being 'me' centered. I know, I am speaking from experience here .
Bitterness gave me a "victim" mentality and a false sense of humility. 'Woe is me' for I have been so hurt and wronged. And I wanted everyone to know how hurt and wronged I was. 'See, I am justified in feeling the way I do. Just look at what they did to me'. I didn't see that I was doing the very same thing to others through bitterness.

Thank God for His mercy and grace!

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

The person who thinks themselves free is sometimes just in another bondage of a different kind.

^^ QFT ^^

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Holy Spirit's convictions are to break down our pleasures, pride, passions, selfish motives however if you READ carefully, and compare doctrinal notes, you will see why I can't accept their doctrines. We should all take a long hard look at what things we consider to be important from God's perspective rather than man's perspective. This is like Jesus versus Pharisees & Scribes. The Scribes and Pharisees were guilty of bibliolatry and they did highly honor the words of Scripture (Old Testament). They knew the Book and so tragic that the knowing the words of the Book, knew not its Author. "You know neither me nor my Father," pronounced Jesus. People can take sides and I would be on Jesus' side. The new creature in Spirit within us as for example Jesus likened the religious Pharisees to a group of dishwashers who clean the outside of a cup while leaving the inside dirty. He said, "Now you Pharisees make the outside of the cup and dish clean, but your inward part is full of greed and wickedness. Foolish ones! Did not He who made the outside make the inside also?" (Luke 11:39-40). The true prophet says humbly, "To me, a sinful man, God spoke." But the scribes and Pharisees declare, "When we speak, God agrees."

So in reality, this will not stop until Christ returns. Until then, divisions and strifes will continue.

Yes, in the world we will have tribulation and that includes the world of the church, unfortunately. There bes no safe haven in a sick divided Body so we must seek as much as possible to live in peace and to find fellowship with believers God places in our path to be part of our experience and journey with Him. Likewise the Bible says it must needs that offenses come but woe to him by whom they come (because he makes little ones to stumble -- we bes ALL God's "little ones" and "little" in Him--John addresses us as "Little children" for example in his epistles). So we must endeavor not to be either the source of strife and division ourselves or the factor that keeps perpetuating it and exacerbating it.

There bes time and season for everything -- a time to speak up and a time to be silent included. Sometimes the appropriate thing to do bes to challenge another's belief -- in love and kindness taking heed of our own frailty and potential to err -- and sometimes it works best just to note the error that snares them and take it to the Lord in prayer.

Just Moriah's thoughts on this of late, of how it wishes to order its life and walk in Him and believes He calls it to. What bes work for it bes in its nature to be confrontational and contentious particularly when it comes to matters of setting truth against error. It takes humbleness to see where one needs changing course so it prays God for this blessed special mercy from Him. Anyway hope its thoughts bes a help and edify to others.

 

[map4]

Yes, in the world we will have tribulation and that includes the world of the church, unfortunately. There bes no safe haven in a sick divided Body so we must seek as much as possible to live in peace and to find fellowship with believers God places in our path to be part of our experience and journey with Him. Likewise the Bible says it must needs that offenses come but woe to him by whom they come (because he makes little ones to stumble -- we bes ALL God's "little ones" and "little" in Him--John addresses us as "Little children" for example in his epistles). So we must endeavor not to be either the source of strife and division ourselves or the factor that keeps perpetuating it and exacerbating it.

There bes time and season for everything -- a time to speak up and a time to be silent included. Sometimes the appropriate thing to do bes to challenge another's belief -- in love and kindness taking heed of our own frailty and potential to err -- and sometimes it works best just to note the error that snares them and take it to the Lord in prayer.

Just Moriah's thoughts on this of late, of how it wishes to order its life and walk in Him and believes He calls it to. What bes work for it bes in its nature to be confrontational and contentious particularly when it comes to matters of setting truth against error. It takes humbleness to see where one needs changing course so it prays God for this blessed special mercy from Him. Anyway hope its thoughts bes a help and edify to others.

Thank you Moriah.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Good post, thank you.

I believe that root of bitterness is one of the most harmful things there is.
The root spreads from the original thing that made us bitter to all areas of our lives. It chokes out the truth of showing God's love and grace to others because we end up seeing and reacting to everything through that bitterness. Being bitter, imo, is a classic sign of selfishness and being 'me' centered. I know, I am speaking from experience here .

Agree totally that bitterness causes tremendous spiritual, psychological and emotional harm, but our personal experiences with it seem to differ a bit . In Moriah's experience it did not have to do with selfishness. Moriah experiences it as related to being wounded and harmed by someone else, as the fallout thereof and what threats to spring up if we do not open our hearts to God and express willingness to forgive. Bitterness lies to us and tries to seduce us with false promises of making us strong and protected so we will not get hurt again when in reality it seeks to make a prison of our pain and turn us into helpless, involuntary inflicters of pain on others in the process.

Not saying your experience bes not valid -- perhaps it sang different swan songs to you -- just sharing what its own has been. If you'd like to read more about what the Holy Spirit showed Moriah about this it bes in its blog in this entry here (click link).

I didn't see that I was doing the very same thing to others through bitterness.
Thank God for His mercy and grace!

This much, though, we shared in common in wrestling that monster -- and yes thank God indeed for without His precious Spirit striving for both our sakes we would easily be overtaken by this monster and made into its slave.